MBB: It's time for Haase to go - Printable Version
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MBB: It's time for Haase to go - winflop - 03-11-2021
Sent this morning:
Dear Mr. Muir,
I'm sure you are being inundated with emails from very frustrated men's basketball fans, so I’ll try to keep this relatively short. It’s time to find a new head coach for men’s basketball.
For three consecutive seasons, the team has played its worst in the final weeks. That’s not what successful teams do. Last night's loss was a complete and total embarrassment.
I thought hiring Coach Haase was a really good decision. He came in with a reputation for doing more with less. Unfortunately, we’ve seen the exact opposite. Many analysts have said that this year’s team was among the most talented in the conference, and yet the results are not materially different from prior seasons nor the previous coach.
Specific to this season, it looks like Coach Haase may have lost the locker room. I hope that, at a minimum, you take the time to sit down one-on-one with every coach, player, and staff member to get to the bottom of it. Something is seriously wrong with the men’s basketball program.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - fullmetal - 03-11-2021
I would presume the covid circumstances had a lot to do with it. The team was practically homeless and exiled from their possessions on campus for several weeks. In addition, you had very young adults coping with social isolation, Zoom U + academic rigor, and athletic pressures. And Muir does not want to have to buy out a coach's contract while forking over money for a new hiring search and new coach + staff. If he does, his rationale for cutting 11 sports would sound rather hollow.
They're just kids, adrift in a pandemic world.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - Papa John - 03-11-2021
Losing to Cal in the tournament (again) still stings, but I see this season kind of like football's disastrous 4-8 season in 2019. The difference is that Shaw has, in my opinion, more than earned the right to correct course. Haase has demonstrated success as a head basketball coach, but it was at UAB, not Stanford.
Having said that, my vote is to give Haase one more year. He has talent coming in. PG Isael Silva is rated higher than Tyrell Terry was. SF Harrison Ingram is rated almost as high as Ziaire Williams, and I have to think we will get more production out of Ingram. SG Jarvis Moss is not highly rated, but we desperately need an outside shooter.
Like in 2019 with football, just about everything went wrong in the last month of this basketball season. Next year will be better with Haase at the helm.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - Farm93 - 03-11-2021
(03-11-2021, 02:47 PM)Papa John Wrote: Losing to Cal in the tournament (again) still stings, but I see this season kind of like football's disastrous 4-8 season in 2019. The difference is that Shaw has, in my opinion, more than earned the right to correct course. Haase has demonstrated success as a head basketball coach, but it was at UAB, not Stanford.To compare Haase and Shaw is wrong on so many levels.
Having said that, my vote is to give Haase one more year. He has talent coming in. PG Isael Silva is rated higher than Tyrell Terry was. SF Harrison Ingram is rated almost as high as Ziaire Williams, and I have to think we will get more production out of Ingram. SG Jarvis Moss is not highly rated, but we desperately need an outside shooter.
Like in 2019 with football, just about everything went wrong in the last month of this basketball season. Next year will be better with Haase at the helm.
That lack of comparable success you addressed while still making the jump, but there is another big difference that is material here.
Shaw is an alum and has already shown program loyalty by turning away next level coaching opportunities. That loyalty to Stanford means he should have some level of loyalty from us to navigate a few tough years.
Does anyone really believe that Haase would stay at Stanford if he took Stanford to the Elite 8 in back-to-back seasons? Or even one Elite 8 season?
So from my point of view our AD's loyalty to Haase may ultimately get one or two good years, at best. We have endured a few very disappointing seasons in our pursuit of potentially getting one or two good seasons.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - gailtate - 03-11-2021
(03-11-2021, 01:46 PM)fullmetal Wrote: I would presume the covid circumstances had a lot to do with it. The team was practically homeless and exiled from their possessions on campus for several weeks. In addition, you had very young adults coping with social isolation, Zoom U + academic rigor, and athletic pressures. And Muir does not want to have to buy out a coach's contract while forking over money for a new hiring search and new coach + staff. If he does, his rationale for cutting 11 sports would sound rather hollow.
They're just kids, adrift in a pandemic world.
I'm not buying. Cal dealt with Covid. Oregon dealt with Covid. As did all the other P12 teams, Gonzaga, St. Mary's and everybody else. Oh, and Tara. For whatever reason, Haase is not cutting it here. He's just not. We're seeing a years-long pattern, not a Pandemic-driven anomaly. Cut bait and drop a line in another part of the river, fergawdsakes.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - winflop - 03-11-2021
(03-11-2021, 01:46 PM)fullmetal Wrote: If he does, his rationale for cutting 11 sports would sound rather hollow.
It already does. They've raised $40M to self-fund and still getting cut
(03-11-2021, 02:47 PM)Papa John Wrote: Like in 2019 with football, just about everything went wrong in the last month of this basketball season. Next year will be better with Haase at the helm.
Except everything's gone wrong in the last month of the last three basketball seasons.
As a life long Cubs fan, "just wait til next year" rings kinda hollow
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - burger - 03-11-2021
If anyone thinks that Stanford's offense will get better with new players next year, consider this:
In 9 seasons as a head coach, Jerod Haase's offenses have been in the top 100 in adjusted efficiency a grand total of once. And that season, at UAB, they were ranked #100 exactly. Numbers here (it's "ADJO" which is offensive efficiency adjusted for opponents): https://barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Jerod%20Haase
At Stanford, the rankings have been 160, 108, 215, 141, and 130.
Johnny Dawkins made the top 100 in offense 5 times.
Haase is just not a good offensive coach.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - OutsiderFan - 03-11-2021
(03-11-2021, 04:25 PM)burger Wrote: If anyone thinks that Stanford's offense will get better with new players next year, consider this:
In 9 seasons as a head coach, Jerod Haase's offenses have been in the top 100 in adjusted efficiency a grand total of once. And that season, at UAB, they were ranked #100 exactly. Numbers here (it's "ADJO" which is offensive efficiency adjusted for opponents): https://barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Jerod%20Haase
At Stanford, the rankings have been 160, 108, 215, 141, and 130.
Johnny Dawkins made the top 100 in offense 5 times.
Haase is just not a good offensive coach.
Seems to suggest someone who knows how to coach offense is needed on the Stanford MBB coaching staff.l
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - old spanish trail - 03-11-2021
As Bill Bradley says, the offense is stale.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - fullmetal - 03-12-2021
(03-11-2021, 03:39 PM)gailtate Wrote: I'm not buying. Cal dealt with Covid. Oregon dealt with Covid. As did all the other P12 teams, Gonzaga, St. Mary's and everybody else. Oh, and Tara. For whatever reason, Haase is not cutting it here. He's just not. We're seeing a years-long pattern, not a Pandemic-driven anomaly. Cut bait and drop a line in another part of the river, fergawdsakes.
Stanford has never been kal. Stanford has never been Oregon. I would never dare to say that the academic rigor of Stanford is comparable to what kal or Oregon athletes deal with, especially not in an era of Zoom U. Additionally, Stanford's sports teams were rendered homeless for several weeks of the season, living and practicing outside of Santa Clara county apart from any peers or their dorm room possessions save what they could take with them in luggage.
I might be a little more in touch with the kids these days, but I do see lots of frustration and cries for help in the current student body looking for support or coping mechanisms in dealing with academics -- professors are not cutting everyone slack, the foreign students have to take classes nocturnally from their home timezones with no consideration given to the wreckage of their circadian rhythm, and some students have unfortunate home/family issues to deal with as well as internet issues. There's just a lot expected of Stanford students during this pandemic, certainly more so than your average bear or duck athlete.
Haase recruited well, and he deserves a shot at coaching Silva/Ingram. If he can't reasonably improve the trend with one of his best recruiting classes, then we need to talk about other measures. But at the beginning of this season, things were really looking up, and the players seemed really happy with Haase. That's not the case anymore, and I really think it started with their eviction from campus, and then the midseason disappearances of Davis, Wills, and Williams.
I'm not saying Haase should stay for life. I'm just saying that covid had an effect on the team. If there was no pandemic and the team performed the same, then I'd be on board with a hiring search.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - GK3 - 03-13-2021
(03-12-2021, 06:24 PM)fullmetal Wrote:(03-11-2021, 03:39 PM)gailtate Wrote: I'm not buying. Cal dealt with Covid. Oregon dealt with Covid. As did all the other P12 teams, Gonzaga, St. Mary's and everybody else. Oh, and Tara. For whatever reason, Haase is not cutting it here. He's just not. We're seeing a years-long pattern, not a Pandemic-driven anomaly. Cut bait and drop a line in another part of the river, fergawdsakes.
Stanford has never been kal. Stanford has never been Oregon. I would never dare to say that the academic rigor of Stanford is comparable to what kal or Oregon athletes deal with, especially not in an era of Zoom U. Additionally, Stanford's sports teams were rendered homeless for several weeks of the season, living and practicing outside of Santa Clara county apart from any peers or their dorm room possessions save what they could take with them in luggage.
I might be a little more in touch with the kids these days, but I do see lots of frustration and cries for help in the current student body looking for support or coping mechanisms in dealing with academics -- professors are not cutting everyone slack, the foreign students have to take classes nocturnally from their home timezones with no consideration given to the wreckage of their circadian rhythm, and some students have unfortunate home/family issues to deal with as well as internet issues. There's just a lot expected of Stanford students during this pandemic, certainly more so than your average bear or duck athlete.
Haase recruited well, and he deserves a shot at coaching Silva/Ingram. If he can't reasonably improve the trend with one of his best recruiting classes, then we need to talk about other measures. But at the beginning of this season, things were really looking up, and the players seemed really happy with Haase. That's not the case anymore, and I really think it started with their eviction from campus, and then the midseason disappearances of Davis, Wills, and Williams.
I'm not saying Haase should stay for life. I'm just saying that covid had an effect on the team. If there was no pandemic and the team performed the same, then I'd be on board with a hiring search.
The pandemic had to have had some kind negative effect on the team and coaches. That said, when DD, BW and ZW went missing for various reasons, and MOC was given the team, they played much better than they had been playing. When the missing three returned trying to integrate them back into the team seem to cause the team to fall apart. Then DD gets in the doghouse for unknown reasons, ZW has another death in the family to deal with and BW comes back and plays his heart out but remains an offensive disaster. Haase has to take some kind of responsibility for Wills complete failure to improve his free throw shooting and the total lack of any kind of outside shot. His offensive game remains rooted in taking the ball to the hoop, often getting into heavy traffic and turning the ball over as a result. This was a team that could not stand the loss of ODS on top of all the other issues. Even when MOC was playing he deferred to others when it came to shooting. We had three players we could rely on for some kind of offense, ODS, Spencer and JD. Whoever else was playing generally contributed little. If the other team only has to focus on shutting down 3 players on the other team, life is much easier for them. The personal issues that befell ZW basically destroyed any chance to integrate him into the offense.
Bryce is an enigma. He remains one of the most gifted athletes I have ever seen in terms of physical skills, but for some reason he seems unable to learn to shoot free throws or develop a reliable mid range jumper or three point shot in three years. Despite the pandemic, I am sure the players had sufficient access to facilities where they could practice free throws and work on the mid range and outside game. I see no evidence that Bryce made any improvement from his Sophomore to Junior years.
The simple answer is to blame the staff or the pandemic or the players lack of practice. The fact is the pandemic and resulting rules established by Santa Clara County played a major role in our debacle, add in injuries, family issues and it became a season of a Bridge too Far.
lex24 - lex24 - 03-13-2021
(03-11-2021, 04:25 PM)burger Wrote: If anyone thinks that Stanford's offense will get better with new players next year, consider this:
In 9 seasons as a head coach, Jerod Haase's offenses have been in the top 100 in adjusted efficiency a grand total of once. And that season, at UAB, they were ranked #100 exactly. Numbers here (it's "ADJO" which is offensive efficiency adjusted for opponents): https://barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Jerod%20Haase
At Stanford, the rankings have been 160, 108, 215, 141, and 130.
Johnny Dawkins made the top 100 in offense 5 times.
Haase is just not a good offensive coach.
(03-13-2021, 10:10 AM)lex24 Wrote: [quote="burger" pid='310127' dateline='1615505101']
If anyone thinks that Stanford's offense will get better with new players next year, consider this:
In 9 seasons as a head coach, Jerod Haase's offenses have been in the top 100 in adjusted efficiency a grand total of once. And that season, at UAB, they were ranked #100 exactly. Numbers here (it's "ADJO" which is offensive efficiency adjusted for opponents): https://barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Jerod%20Haase
At Stanford, the rankings have been 160, 108, 215, 141, and 130.
Johnny Dawkins made the top 100 in offense 5 times.
Haase is just not a good offensive coach.
But I thought Dawkins was a lousy coach. Stanford basketball has been irrelevant for some time. One and done era doesn’t help. Yes, this was a bad offensive team. Which happens when you can’t shoot and have almost no one that creates. Davis hurt most of year and them pfffft. Wills the same. Williams was a bust.
What do you want in a new coach? Be specific. What style of play? What type of player should he recruit. Give us programs to emulate.
Cause just bringing in the flavor of the month does nothing. They need someone that understands the landscape and can determine how best to win at Stanford.
To me that’s recruiting guys that are likely to stay and mature. That’s relying on upperclassmen. Not guys that will leave. Player development key. Size and the ability to hit threes. An offense that does not rely on recruiting a bunch of guys that can beat people off the dribble. And has a low post scoring presence. Recruiting should be international. I repeat - look at Wisconsin, Iowa, Gonzaga. (Different styles, but all three tend to keep players in the systems. Not many one and dones).
RE: lex24 - AlbanyCardinal - 03-13-2021
I agree overall with your criteria, in particular more emphasis on 3-point shooters. I would say that Haase has recruited abroad. As for recruiting guys that will stay, I agree also, but I don't fault Haase as much for the attrition we've seen the last few years. Who could predict that Ryan would transfer out after one year in a hissy fit? Same for Terry, who might still be on campus had Covid not hit. ZW is the only one-and-done player he's brought in, and that didn't go very well, I'll admit. Again, though, hard to blame the staff for bringing in one guy with ZW's profile. IMO, at least. I'm with you on player development. Maybe if this staff were stronger in that area, not so many folks would have left early. Hard to know.
Firing and hiring always seems so crystal clear in hindsight. To many, I think, Haase seemed like a decent hire. I'd add that I'm not exactly confident in Muir's ability to bring in a coach that will stick, but then again many a good AD have made the "wrong" hire, so it's a crap shoot. This is not to argue for retaining Haase; just jaded as to whether a new hire will provide the relief we all hope it will.
(03-13-2021, 10:10 AM)lex24 Wrote:(03-11-2021, 04:25 PM)burger Wrote: If anyone thinks that Stanford's offense will get better with new players next year, consider this:
In 9 seasons as a head coach, Jerod Haase's offenses have been in the top 100 in adjusted efficiency a grand total of once. And that season, at UAB, they were ranked #100 exactly. Numbers here (it's "ADJO" which is offensive efficiency adjusted for opponents): https://barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Jerod%20Haase
At Stanford, the rankings have been 160, 108, 215, 141, and 130.
Johnny Dawkins made the top 100 in offense 5 times.
Haase is just not a good offensive coach.
(03-13-2021, 10:10 AM)lex24 Wrote: [quote="burger" pid='310127' dateline='1615505101']
If anyone thinks that Stanford's offense will get better with new players next year, consider this:
In 9 seasons as a head coach, Jerod Haase's offenses have been in the top 100 in adjusted efficiency a grand total of once. And that season, at UAB, they were ranked #100 exactly. Numbers here (it's "ADJO" which is offensive efficiency adjusted for opponents): https://barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Jerod%20Haase
At Stanford, the rankings have been 160, 108, 215, 141, and 130.
Johnny Dawkins made the top 100 in offense 5 times.
Haase is just not a good offensive coach.
But I thought Dawkins was a lousy coach. Stanford basketball has been irrelevant for some time. One and done era doesn’t help. Yes, this was a bad offensive team. Which happens when you can’t shoot and have almost no one that creates. Davis hurt most of year and them pfffft. Wills the same. Williams was a bust.
What do you want in a new coach? Be specific. What style of play? What type of player should he recruit. Give us programs to emulate.
Cause just bringing in the flavor of the month does nothing. They need someone that understands the landscape and can determine how best to win at Stanford.
To me that’s recruiting guys that are likely to stay and mature. That’s relying on upperclassmen. Not guys that will leave. Player development key. Size and the ability to hit threes. An offense that does not rely on recruiting a bunch of guys that can beat people off the dribble. And has a low post scoring presence. Recruiting should be international. I repeat - look at Wisconsin, Iowa, Gonzaga. (Different styles, but all three tend to keep players in the systems. Not many one and dones).
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - CompSci87 - 03-13-2021
Not to say MBB can follow the same model, but in WBB Tara tends to get the best admissable players and then modify the system to work with what she has. She's completely changed offensive systems at least three times over her Stanford career.
RE: lex24 - GK3 - 03-13-2021
(03-13-2021, 12:12 PM)AlbanyCardinal Wrote: I agree overall with your criteria, in particular more emphasis on 3-point shooters. I would say that Haase has recruited abroad. As for recruiting guys that will stay, I agree also, but I don't fault Haase as much for the attrition we've seen the last few years. Who could predict that Ryan would transfer out after one year in a hissy fit? Same for Terry, who might still be on campus had Covid not hit. ZW is the only one-and-done player he's brought in, and that didn't go very well, I'll admit. Again, though, hard to blame the staff for bringing in one guy with ZW's profile. IMO, at least. I'm with you on player development. Maybe if this staff were stronger in that area, not so many folks would have left early. Hard to know.My impression is that Haase is where he wants to be in terms of college basketball. Some of our guys have improved quite a bit over their career, see Oscar, Lucas and Jaiden. The place we are NOT seeing improvement is at the guard positions. DD is pretty much the same guy who came in as a frosh as is Bryce. I think a critical component of his offense is guard play and the guys he has had while wildly athletic haven't improved much or shown the ability to make his offense go. MOC suddenly gets some starts and suddenly we play a lot better, then the others return and chaos returns with them.
Firing and hiring always seems so crystal clear in hindsight. To many, I think, Haase seemed like a decent hire. I'd add that I'm not exactly confident in Muir's ability to bring in a coach that will stick, but then again many a good AD have made the "wrong" hire, so it's a crap shoot. This is not to argue for retaining Haase; just jaded as to whether a new hire will provide the relief we all hope it will.
(03-13-2021, 10:10 AM)lex24 Wrote:(03-11-2021, 04:25 PM)burger Wrote: If anyone thinks that Stanford's offense will get better with new players next year, consider this:
In 9 seasons as a head coach, Jerod Haase's offenses have been in the top 100 in adjusted efficiency a grand total of once. And that season, at UAB, they were ranked #100 exactly. Numbers here (it's "ADJO" which is offensive efficiency adjusted for opponents): https://barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Jerod%20Haase
At Stanford, the rankings have been 160, 108, 215, 141, and 130.
Johnny Dawkins made the top 100 in offense 5 times.
Haase is just not a good offensive coach.
(03-13-2021, 10:10 AM)lex24 Wrote: [quote="burger" pid='310127' dateline='1615505101']
If anyone thinks that Stanford's offense will get better with new players next year, consider this:
In 9 seasons as a head coach, Jerod Haase's offenses have been in the top 100 in adjusted efficiency a grand total of once. And that season, at UAB, they were ranked #100 exactly. Numbers here (it's "ADJO" which is offensive efficiency adjusted for opponents): https://barttorvik.com/coach-history.php?coach=Jerod%20Haase
At Stanford, the rankings have been 160, 108, 215, 141, and 130.
Johnny Dawkins made the top 100 in offense 5 times.
Haase is just not a good offensive coach.
But I thought Dawkins was a lousy coach. Stanford basketball has been irrelevant for some time. One and done era doesn’t help. Yes, this was a bad offensive team. Which happens when you can’t shoot and have almost no one that creates. Davis hurt most of year and them pfffft. Wills the same. Williams was a bust.
What do you want in a new coach? Be specific. What style of play? What type of player should he recruit. Give us programs to emulate.
Cause just bringing in the flavor of the month does nothing. They need someone that understands the landscape and can determine how best to win at Stanford.
To me that’s recruiting guys that are likely to stay and mature. That’s relying on upperclassmen. Not guys that will leave. Player development key. Size and the ability to hit threes. An offense that does not rely on recruiting a bunch of guys that can beat people off the dribble. And has a low post scoring presence. Recruiting should be international. I repeat - look at Wisconsin, Iowa, Gonzaga. (Different styles, but all three tend to keep players in the systems. Not many one and dones).
I would not accept the premise that players like DD and BW could not improve year over year, yet they have not. When a freshman comes in and proves to be wildly better in terms of turn overs and running the offense than a senior and a junior who are gifted athletes one has to wonder.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - old spanish trail - 03-13-2021
Lex, ZW didn't provide what he hoped, but I don't think he's a bust. He's very gifted and will do ok/very well in the NBA. Not only is he gifted, he has always been recognized as a very good guy. Don't know what happened at the end.
RE: lex24 - SamuelMcF - 03-13-2021
(03-13-2021, 01:09 PM)GK3 Wrote: I would not accept the premise that players like DD and BW could not improve year over year, yet they have not. When a freshman comes in and proves to be wildly better in terms of turn overs and running the offense than a senior and a junior who are gifted athletes one has to wonder.
Neither of them are point guards.
O'Connell is a point guard.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - burger - 03-13-2021
(03-13-2021, 01:08 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: Not to say MBB can follow the same model, but in WBB Tara tends to get the best admissable players and then modify the system to work with what she has. She's completely changed offensive systems at least three times over her Stanford career.
This. At Stanford, it's dumb to say that "<x> is our system, and we will recruit only guys who fit that system." With our recruiting limitations, we have to settle for what we get. A good coach should adapt the system to work with the players they have. If you don't have a bunch of good 3-point shooters, don't rely on it. Or if you only have one good 3-point shooter *cough cough*, run some freakin' screens to get that guy open.
So I'm not looking for any specific style of play on offense, and Muir shouldn't either when he hires his next coach. He should look for someone who gets the most possible out of their players. I don't think Haase is doing that.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - OutsiderFan - 03-13-2021
It is true Oregon isn't academically rigorous as Stanford, but where is the evidence Cal requires less work than Stanford?
I know times change, but when I used to pay attention, Stanford made getting As difficult, but it was almost impossible to fail. Cal, OTOH, was sink or swim and you could fail quite easily if you didn't work hard. Stanford was like, once you got in, you had it made.
Sorry, just had to get that out...
I don't see any evidence Hasse is somehow going to get better performance out of his Stanford teams. But the real issue is nobody is setting any standards of performance for MBB or Football. I don't have any idea what the expectations are for either program. This may be a function of me being ignorant to what they might be. Or, they might not exist, which is a much larger problem than who the coaches are.
RE: MBB: It's time for Haase to go - BillBradley - 03-13-2021
I believe every coach has a preferred style of play and structure, likes players with specific attributes and is less tolerant of certain inadequacies. Montgomery was more old school, liked to play inside out, looked to recruit good shooters, and was highly focused on efficiency. To me, Haase wants his teams to play like he used to play. Hustle like mad, defend, steals, floor burns, disruption/chaos, attack the basket, shoot lots of FT's, etc. He's attracted to effort. He was not a good shooter in college himself (career 42% and 33% from 3). He has way more tolerance for Wills offensive deficiencies because he's a defensive animal and gives great effort, and that's what he likes (and that's part of the reason he never developed a shot, because he didn't have to). Other coaches would not tolerate or play a guard who is such a poor shooter. If Haase stays, it's just going to be more of the same. He's not going to shed his biases and flip to a different style over night.