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The Kicker - metsjetsfan - 10-20-2012

The problem is that everyone, except for maybe David Shaw, has lost confidence in Williamson every time he lines up to attempt a big kick.  It's probably time to change kickers when everyone watching is pleasantly surprised and relieved if he kicks a short 30 yarder through the uprights.  I know I no longer expect him to convert on attempts under 40 yards, much less attempts over 40 yards.  Unlike David Shaw who thinks the problems are strictly mechanical, I think it's pretty clear that the problems are mental when he's shanking short kicks.  He's obviously a gifted kicker with an NFL leg...but since so much of kicking FGs is mental, maybe we should go in a different direction...

Isn't Nate Whitaker's brother Eric still on the team?  I remember he came up big against USC by not missing a single kick when Williamson was hurt last year.  That performance showed at least Whitaker wouldn't be affected by the tremendous pressure during actual games, which is something that appears Williamson has still not completely gotten over from the Fiesta Bowl. 

Edit: and some stats to back it up, Williamson has missed 5 FGs under 40 yards this year (2 missed under 30 yards in the biggest games so far, one against ND and one against USC).  Is it too much to expect anything under 40 yards to be a gimme?  He's also 50% on FGAs over 40 yards...

Re: The Kicker - FarmBoy - 10-20-2012

Eric quit to focus on school, after the Fiesta bowl, IIRC.

Re: The Kicker - metsjetsfan - 10-20-2012

(10-20-2012, 03:00 PM)FarmBoy link Wrote:Eric quit to focus on school, after the Fiesta bowl, IIRC.

Hmm in that case, I guess we don't have an alternative....oh well

Re: The Kicker - OutsiderFan - 10-20-2012

The problem is Alamar.  He ruined every FG kicker he had at Cal.

Stanford's ST has been good in returns and coverage, but the FG kicking is terrible.  That said, it's awful across college football  and coaches try way too many FGs.

Re: The Kicker - Roberton3 - 10-20-2012

(10-20-2012, 02:57 PM)metsjetsfan link Wrote:The problem is that everyone, except for maybe David Shaw, has lost confidence in Williamson every time he lines up to attempt a big kick.  It's probably time to change kickers when everyone watching is pleasantly surprised and relieved if he kicks a short 30 yarder through the uprights.  I know I no longer expect him to convert on attempts under 40 yards, much less attempts over 40 yards.  Unlike David Shaw who thinks the problems are strictly mechanical, I think it's pretty clear that the problems are mental when he's shanking short kicks.  He's obviously a gifted kicker with an NFL leg...but since so much of kicking FGs is mental, maybe we should go in a different direction...

Isn't Nate Whitaker's brother Eric still on the team?  I remember he came up big against the team Under Stanford Control by not missing a single kick when Williamson was hurt last year.  That performance showed at least Whitaker wouldn't be affected by the tremendous pressure during actual games, which is something that appears Williamson has still not completely gotten over from the Fiesta Bowl. 

Edit: and some stats to back it up, Williamson has missed 5 FGs under 40 yards this year (2 missed under 30 yards in the biggest games so far, one against ND and one against the team Under Stanford Control).  Is it too much to expect anything under 40 yards to be a gimme?  He's also 50% on FGAs over 40 yards...

Try bringing your expectations in line with reality.  In college, those aren't gimmes.  Only one PAC-12 kicker has attempted more than 3 FGs from inside the 40 this season and hit them all.

Coming into the game, Williamson was 2nd in the PAC-12 in FG percentage.  Even after missing two attempts in this game, he's dropped to 4th, but that still puts him well above average.

Re: The Kicker - stanforddad - 10-20-2012

You have to feel for Williamson and his problems, and you want to give him every opportunity to get his head right and help the team. He has the ability. but at some time you have to do what is in the best interest of the team. No matter how much you like a player and want him to be guy. If he doesn't have the confidence in himself, and you can see it in his eyes, on his face, in his voice, you as a player lose confidence in him. At that point you need to give someone else a try while he works on getting is head back together.

Soph Ben Ryhme is listed as the backup on the depth chart. Don't know his abilities, but with WSU and Colorado next on the schedule, might be time for change.



Re: The Kicker - Roberton3 - 10-20-2012

Interesting stats on Williamson:

-On FGs less than 30 yards, he's 4/6.  Only two kickers in the PAC-12 (among those qualified for the stats list) have a worse percentage.

-On FGs 30 yards and over, he's 5/7.  That's the best in the conference.

Re: The Kicker - Oasis - 10-20-2012

We're just forever scarred by the Fiesta Bowl.  Every time  Williamson lines up it does something bad to my blood pressure. Apparently that reaction is statistically irrational, but memories of the great choke don't go away easily.  I didn't have that reaction when Nate Whitaker was kicking.

Re: The Kicker - metsjetsfan - 10-20-2012

(10-20-2012, 05:00 PM)Roberton3 link Wrote:-On FGs 30 yards and over, he's 5/7.  That's the best in the conference.

Not sure what you were looking at but he was actually 5/8 on FGs 30 yards and over before today. 

After today, he's now 5/10 on FGs 30 yards and over....doubt that's best in the conference...

For FGs between 30 and 40 yards, he is now 3/6 for the season.

(10-20-2012, 05:51 PM)Oasis link Wrote:We're just forever scarred by the Fiesta Bowl.  Every time  Williamson lines up it does something bad to my blood pressure. Apparently that reaction is statistically irrational, but memories of the great choke don't go away easily.  I didn't have that reaction when Nate Whitaker was kicking.

I wouldn't have this natural reaction if he made every FG less than 30 yards and more than 50% of FGs between 30 and 40 yds...or maybe I'm just being too picky?

Sure, the Fiesta Bowl will come up every time he has to make a big kick, but he has done little to suggest we should confident about a normal 30 yarder in the 1st quarter against an average team.

Quote:Try bringing your expectations in line with reality.  In college, those aren't gimmes.  Only one PAC-12 kicker has attempted more than 3 FGs from inside the 40 this season and hit them all.

Coming into the game, Williamson was 2nd in the PAC-12 in FG percentage.  Even after missing two attempts in this game, he's dropped to 4th, but that still puts him well above average.

I never said he had to make every FG from inside the 40 this season.  However, being 7/11 = 64% for FGs between 20-39 yds this season is a little low for my tastes, although again, I admit might have higher expectations than other fans.  I also don't think 9/16=56% for the season is "well above average" though I could be wrong.

PLEASE don't think I hate the kid or that I want him to fail or something .  Just pointing out his deficiencies and hoping we can discuss whether there are any alternatives (which I guess we don't).

Re: The Kicker - Roberton3 - 10-20-2012

(10-20-2012, 06:43 PM)metsjetsfan link Wrote:[quote author=Roberton3 link=topic=6708.msg50109#msg50109 date=1350777614]
-On FGs 30 yards and over, he's 5/7.  That's the best in the conference.

Not sure what you were looking at but he was actually 5/8 on FGs 30 yards and over before today. 

After today, he's now 5/10 on FGs 30 yards and over....doubt that's best in the conference...

For FGs between 30 and 40 yards, he is now 3/6 for the season.

[/quote]

Oops.  Not sure what was up with the stats I was looking at, but they're not correct.  Sorry about that.  Correcting things changes the picture a bit, though not enormously.

Taking conference stats (that seem to be correct) from ESPN: You're right that Williamson was 5/8 on FGs of 30+ yards before today, not 5/7.  So he was 2nd in the PAC-12, not 1st.  And after today, he's 5/10 -- which (based on last week's statistics for the other kickers) leaves him tied for 4th in the league from 30+ yards (and only one of the guys ahead of him has more than 2 attempts from 40+).

So the difference isn't as stark as I'd thought, but the basic point is still there.  Williamson has done worse than the typical kicker in the PAC-12 on FGs under 30 yards, and better on FGs of 30+ yards (even after missing two today).

The stats in the first post were also off.  Williamson is roughly average in the PAC-12 so far, not above average.  (Though the stats about field goals under 40 yards not being gimmes were correct).

Going back to the bigger point -- for all his difficulties, he's still roughly average in the PAC-12.  He's not on track to be all-conference, but he's certainly not the disaster that some folks seem to think.  Kicking is hard, and there aren't very many college kickers that do it really well. 

If we have an all-conference kicker sitting on the bench, then we ought to be using him instead.  But I doubt we do.  And if the backup is roughly as good as the typical PAC-12 kicker, then he's no better than Williamson.



Re: The Kicker - pincemob - 10-20-2012

He's a nice kid with a great leg, but he obviously can't manage his nerves on the field.  That reaction happens not just to kickers, but golfers and other athletes.  Experience is not usually the cure.  And what he does in practice is 100% irrelevant because you can't simulate the pressure.  We probably should have lined up a kicker last year, but if I were Shaw I'd make it a high priority for the fall.   

Re: The Kicker - Roberton3 - 10-20-2012

(10-20-2012, 02:57 PM)metsjetsfan link Wrote:Is it too much to expect anything under 40 yards to be a gimme?

(10-20-2012, 06:43 PM)metsjetsfan link Wrote:I never said he had to make every FG from inside the 40 this season. 


Re: The Kicker - stan01 - 10-20-2012

Williamson has two backups who are tied for second: SO Ben Rhyne and FR Conrad Okrupina.  Okrupina was a high school All American who did great in the all star Semper Fidelis bowl.  Here is a story about his recruitment: http://stanford.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1364773

Re: The Kicker - fullmetal - 10-21-2012

Can someone bring up Nate Whitaker's stats for an apples-to-apples comparison?

Speaking of past kickers, I hear Aaron Zagory is in law school...at kal.

Re: The Kicker - metsjetsfan - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 12:05 AM)fullmetal link Wrote:Can someone bring up Nate Whitaker's stats for an apples-to-apples comparison?

Speaking of past kickers, I hear Aaron Zagory is in law school...at kal.

Haha looking at Whitaker's stats makes me truly reminisce when we had a good kicker.

In two years as Stanford's kicker, he did not miss a single FG from 20-29 yards, going 15/15.  He was 8/10 from 30-39 yards, 9/14 from 40-49 yards, and 1/2 from 50 yards out.  He did miss 5 extra points in 2010 though  :o ???

Granted, Nate was first-team All-Pac-10 in 2010

Re: The Kicker - Rando - 10-21-2012

I root for Jordan W. But man he scares me. I'm always scared FOR him. The student section says some brutal stuff when he misses.

Re: The Kicker - SamAtoms1980 - 10-21-2012

(10-20-2012, 07:44 PM)norcalcard link Wrote:He's a nice kid with a great leg, but he obviously can't manage his nerves on the field.  That reaction happens not just to kickers, but golfers and other athletes.  Experience is not usually the cure.  And what he does in practice is 100% irrelevant because you can't simulate the pressure.  We probably should have lined up a kicker last year, but if I were Shaw I'd make it a high priority for the fall. 

IMO, you CAN simulate the pressure.

Bring Stanford's hottest cheerleader to kicking practice.  Have Williamson attempt five 40-yard field goals, then five more from 45 yards, going from one hash to the other.  If he hits them all......

Re: The Kicker - JohnR34231 - 10-21-2012

(10-21-2012, 01:05 AM)SamAtoms1980 link Wrote:[quote author=norcalcard link=topic=6708.msg50122#msg50122 date=1350787444]
He's a nice kid with a great leg, but he obviously can't manage his nerves on the field.  That reaction happens not just to kickers, but golfers and other athletes.  Experience is not usually the cure.  And what he does in practice is 100% irrelevant because you can't simulate the pressure.  We probably should have lined up a kicker last year, but if I were Shaw I'd make it a high priority for the fall. 

IMO, you CAN simulate the pressure.

Bring Stanford's hottest cheerleader to kicking practice.  Have Williamson attempt five 40-yard field goals, then five more from 45 yards, going from one hash to the other.  If he hits them all......
[/quote]

If that happens you'll have most of the team volunteering to take a shot at field goal kicking.  :)

As far as keeping expectations under control, this is not a good year for Stanford fans. We are 5-2 with one of the losses coming on the road to a top ten team and judging from some of the comments you read you would think we were 1-6.

Re: The Kicker - metsjetsfan - 10-21-2012

Quote:Going back to the bigger point -- for all his difficulties, he's still roughly average in the PAC-12.  He's not on track to be all-conference, but he's certainly not the disaster that some folks seem to think.  Kicking is hard, and there aren't very many college kickers that do it really well. 

He ranks 87 out of 100 kickers in the FBS in overall FG%.  Compared to the rest of the nation, he's well below average.  Only 2 Pac-12 kickers have lower FG% than Williamson, so I don't think that means he's average in the Pac-12 either (though I suppose your definition of "roughly average" is subjective as well).  If you still want to say that he's average in the Pac-12, recognize that it's in a conference of low-quality kickers as there is only 1 Pac-12 kicker in the top 40 in the nation in FG% (and he's 36th). 

And to clarify on my personal expectations for FGAs under 40 yards, I don't expect every attempt to go in.  But I do expect at least, let's say, 75% of FGAs from 20-39 yards to go in - and that's reasonable right?  Williamson is currently 7/12=58% for 20-39 yarders. 

Again, I don't hate the kid or don't want him to succeed, and I'm not saying he's a disaster.  But....

Quote:judging from some of the comments you read you would think we were 1-6.

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I never complained about the team's record or anything.  Though since you bring it up, it could be argued that Williamson missing a 20-29 yarder during the ND game cost us the win...

Otherwise, I'm just voicing and using numbers to back up much of the fanbase's displeasure with our kicking situation.  Don't think there's anything wrong about that...

Re: The Kicker - Roberton3 - 10-21-2012

The kicker with the 6th-best FG percentage in the PAC-12 is at 58.3%.  Williamson is at 56.3%.  If that's not "roughly average" then I don't know what is.