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RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-18-2022
(10-18-2022, 09:09 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Since tonight kicks off the start of the NBA season, who y'all got? Don't know if I've ever seen so many teams with so many good players.
West: Warriors, Clippers, Nuggets, Grizzlies, Mavericks, Suns, Pelicans, Lakers are all proven to some degree.
East: Celtics, Nets, Bucks, Heat, Sixers, Raptors, Hawks, Cavs are all proven to some degree.
I honestly don't know who to take there are so many good teams. I guess the question easiest to answer is if you'd take the W's or the field? Then again, most people would pick the field just because of the numbers, and most who chose the W's would be biased homers.
To me the most intriguing team is the Cavs. Two small All-Star level Guards (Garland and Mitchell) paired with a couple bigs and a wing forward. Kind of a little bit like Blazers had with Lillard and McCollum, but a bigger front court.
I'm curious to see how far the Suns fall from the #1 seed, which for some reason I don't think they will be contending for this year.
I think the Bucks or the Celtics overall. I don't think the Warriors have a chance. Their old guys are too old, their young guys are too young. Green, Thompson and Curry haven't each played in more than 69 games in five years. Last year, the Warriors were 53-29, the third worst record for an NBA champion in the last half-century. By dumb, stupid luck, their old guys played all 22 games in the playoffs, including Klay Thompson -- who played over 100 games, including playoffs and preseason, when he first got really hurt.
For the Warriors to succeed, their old guys have to stay healthy, and their young guys have to improve, a lot.
BTW, with last year's NBA championship, the Warriors now have the third most NBA championships in history, behind the Celtics and Lakers who are tied at 17 apiece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_seasons
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 10-18-2022
(10-18-2022, 09:31 AM)Mick Wrote:(10-18-2022, 09:09 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Since tonight kicks off the start of the NBA season, who y'all got? Don't know if I've ever seen so many teams with so many good players.
West: Warriors, Clippers, Nuggets, Grizzlies, Mavericks, Suns, Pelicans, Lakers are all proven to some degree.
East: Celtics, Nets, Bucks, Heat, Sixers, Raptors, Hawks, Cavs are all proven to some degree.
I honestly don't know who to take there are so many good teams. I guess the question easiest to answer is if you'd take the W's or the field? Then again, most people would pick the field just because of the numbers, and most who chose the W's would be biased homers.
To me the most intriguing team is the Cavs. Two small All-Star level Guards (Garland and Mitchell) paired with a couple bigs and a wing forward. Kind of a little bit like Blazers had with Lillard and McCollum, but a bigger front court.
I'm curious to see how far the Suns fall from the #1 seed, which for some reason I don't think they will be contending for this year.
I think the Bucks or the Celtics overall. I don't think the Warriors have a chance. Their old guys are too old, their young guys are too young. Green, Thompson and Curry haven't each played in more than 69 games in five years. Last year, the Warriors were 53-29, the third worst record for an NBA champion in the last half-century. By dumb, stupid luck, their old guys played all 22 games in the playoffs, including Klay Thompson -- who played over 100 games, including playoffs and preseason, when he first got really hurt.
For the Warriors to succeed, their old guys have to stay healthy, and their young guys have to improve, a lot.
BTW, with last year's NBA championship, the Warriors now have the third most NBA championships in history, behind the Celtics and Lakers who are tied at 17 apiece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_seasons
Gone are the days when stars go 82. Play enough regular season games to get a good seed and be as rested for playoffs as possible.
Having said that. I’ve already indicated I’d be shocked if Warriors repeat. I just don’t want Suns to win. Not worried about Lakers.
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 10-18-2022
(10-18-2022, 09:09 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Since tonight kicks off the start of the NBA season, who y'all got? Don't know if I've ever seen so many teams with so many good players.
West: Warriors, Clippers, Nuggets, Grizzlies, Mavericks, Suns, Pelicans, Lakers are all proven to some degree.
East: Celtics, Nets, Bucks, Heat, Sixers, Raptors, Hawks, Cavs are all proven to some degree.
I honestly don't know who to take there are so many good teams. I guess the question easiest to answer is if you'd take the W's or the field? Then again, most people would pick the field just because of the numbers, and most who chose the W's would be biased homers.
To me the most intriguing team is the Cavs. Two small All-Star level Guards (Garland and Mitchell) paired with a couple bigs and a wing forward. Kind of a little bit like Blazers had with Lillard and McCollum, but a bigger front court.
I'm curious to see how far the Suns fall from the #1 seed, which for some reason I don't think they will be contending for this year.
This overall evaluation seems right to me. The top half of the league or so all looks very tough. Sixteen teams (mostly overlapping with the list above) apparently are going to be above the luxury tax threshhold. That's not a perfect indicator of each team's potential (see Memphis, which would be under even with Morant at the salary level he'll earn with his new contract next year). But it shows that a lot of teams are "going for it" this year. I would include the Wolves and the Bulls in the group of teams that look very tough. I don't think the Wizards are going to make the playoffs, let alone have much chance to win the first round, but even they would be interesting to watch if Porzingis can finally stay healthy. As for the Warriors, the team probably has as good a chance as most anyone, but I still wouldn't put it higher than 8 to 1.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 10-18-2022
Agree that Minnesota and Chicago are no slouches, and the T-Wolves have three All-Star players (thought I am not a big Gobert fan). Charlotte is another team that might be considered playoff worthy, but I doubt Sacramento is breaking its playoff drought, so the East might have 10 above .500 teams and the West maybe 9.
But we all know the real race this year is for Victor Wembanyama, the most freakish hooper anyone has ever seen.
RE: NBA Discussion - old spanish trail - 10-18-2022
Until proven otherwise, I pick the Dubs for the championship. Agree the days of 82 games for stars are mercifully gone. Get to the finals and let class take over. If they don't make it, it's because Green has lost too many steps.
RE: NBA Discussion - Leftcoast - 10-18-2022
I’m much more optimistic of the Dubs chances than some here. Steph still looks good, Klay will improve from last year even if he will never regain his pre-surgery form, and those young guys are getting better FAST. Moody, Poole, Kuminga, and Wiseman will all contribute and earn spots in the game rotation.
If Kerr can keep the locker room together the team will come out of the gate fast and earn space to rest the old guard prior to the post season. As long as the Old Guard and Young Guard play nice they have a chance to match early millennium San Antonio. (Robinson->Duncan)
In the West, I worry about the Clips and Grizzlies, not so much about Denver or Dallas.
Did someone call the Lakers proven? They looked really bad in the preseason and have age and locker room issues that dwarf the Dubs. Nearly unwatchable. Let’s see if they’re still on the proven list in six months. I think not!
I see no one mentioned Milwaukee and I can see why. Still, as long as they have Giannis they deserve to be watched.
RE: NBA Discussion - BostonCard - 10-18-2022
Nah, the real question is who do you have winning the Wembanyama sweepstakes?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/nba-preview-steph-curry-luka-doncic-victor-wembanyama-11666100772?st=nd9aa74vf1csc4f&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
BC
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-18-2022
(10-18-2022, 03:25 PM)Leftcoast Wrote: I’m much more optimistic of the Dubs chances than some here. Steph still looks good, Klay will improve from last year even if he will never regain his pre-surgery form, and those young guys are getting better FAST. Moody, Poole, Kuminga, and Wiseman will all contribute and earn spots in the game rotation.
If Kerr can keep the locker room together the team will come out of the gate fast and earn space to rest the old guard prior to the post season. As long as the Old Guard and Young Guard play nice they have a chance to match early millennium San Antonio. (Robinson->Duncan)
As I read this, the Warriors are ahead of the Lakers 89-64.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 10-19-2022
My list of proven teams included those with players who have won championships, been to conference finals, and/or have MVP level players. The Lakers with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, and Russell Westbrook fit that bill.
That said, after watching them against the Warriors, wow are they not contenders. When you are starting Patrick Beverly you have major problems. But their bench is dreadful as well, like really bad.
Wiseman, Kuminga and Moody combined for 6-13 FG 0-4 FT 11 Reb and 13 points. My guess is that will be one of that trio's lowest output games of the season.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 06:58 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: My list of proven teams included those with players who have won championships, been to conference finals, and/or have MVP level players. The Lakers with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, and Russell Westbrook fit that bill.
That said, after watching them against the Warriors, wow are they not contenders. When you are starting Patrick Beverly you have major problems. But their bench is dreadful as well, like really bad.
Wiseman, Kuminga and Moody combined for 6-13 FG 0-4 FT 11 Reb and 13 points. My guess is that will be one of that trio's lowest output games of the season.
Kuminga was -8, Wiseman had the worst at -11. Moody was +1. Frankly, I really like Moody's game. Lower ceiling, higher floor. All of the starters were between +11 (Thompson) and +30 (Looney). Curry had 33 pts, Wiggins had 20, Thompson, 18. 18 team turnovers, 31 assists, 48 rebounds; beating the Lakers in all three stats. Maybe the Warriors will crush it this season, who knows?
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 07:26 AM)Mick Wrote:(10-19-2022, 06:58 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: My list of proven teams included those with players who have won championships, been to conference finals, and/or have MVP level players. The Lakers with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, and Russell Westbrook fit that bill.
That said, after watching them against the Warriors, wow are they not contenders. When you are starting Patrick Beverly you have major problems. But their bench is dreadful as well, like really bad.
Wiseman, Kuminga and Moody combined for 6-13 FG 0-4 FT 11 Reb and 13 points. My guess is that will be one of that trio's lowest output games of the season.
Kuminga was -8, Wiseman had the worst at -11. Moody was +1. Frankly, I really like Moody's game. Lower ceiling, higher floor. All of the starters were between +11 (Thompson) and +30 (Looney). Curry had 33 pts, Wiggins had 20, Thompson, 18. 18 team turnovers, 31 assists, 48 rebounds; beating the Lakers in all three stats. Maybe the Warriors will crush it this season, who knows?
Here's some honest talk about Wiseman from Jordan Poole: https://clutchpoints.com/warriors-news-jordan-poole-reveals-secret-to-maximizing-on-court-partnership-with-james-wiseman/
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 10-20-2022
(10-19-2022, 12:07 PM)TrumpCard Wrote:(10-19-2022, 07:26 AM)Mick Wrote:(10-19-2022, 06:58 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: My list of proven teams included those with players who have won championships, been to conference finals, and/or have MVP level players. The Lakers with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, and Russell Westbrook fit that bill.
That said, after watching them against the Warriors, wow are they not contenders. When you are starting Patrick Beverly you have major problems. But their bench is dreadful as well, like really bad.
Wiseman, Kuminga and Moody combined for 6-13 FG 0-4 FT 11 Reb and 13 points. My guess is that will be one of that trio's lowest output games of the season.
Kuminga was -8, Wiseman had the worst at -11. Moody was +1. Frankly, I really like Moody's game. Lower ceiling, higher floor. All of the starters were between +11 (Thompson) and +30 (Looney). Curry had 33 pts, Wiggins had 20, Thompson, 18. 18 team turnovers, 31 assists, 48 rebounds; beating the Lakers in all three stats. Maybe the Warriors will crush it this season, who knows?
Here's some honest talk about Wiseman from Jordan Poole: https://clutchpoints.com/warriors-news-jordan-poole-reveals-secret-to-maximizing-on-court-partnership-with-james-wiseman/
Wiseman obviously has ability. Harnessing it is another matter. He seems “soft”. But he has played very little basketball over the last 3 years. So, it’s going to take some time to see if he develops. Of course, he has to stay healthy.
(10-19-2022, 06:58 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: My list of proven teams included those with players who have won championships, been to conference finals, and/or have MVP level players. The Lakers with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, and Russell Westbrook fit that bill.
That said, after watching them against the Warriors, wow are they not contenders. When you are starting Patrick Beverly you have major problems. But their bench is dreadful as well, like really bad.
Wiseman, Kuminga and Moody combined for 6-13 FG 0-4 FT 11 Reb and 13 points. My guess is that will be one of that trio's lowest output games of the season.
The Lakers are a mess. My guess is Westbrook will be traded.
RE: NBA Discussion - gocard14 - 10-20-2022
I was impressed with wiseman. He played solid D, using his length around the rim to alter shots and block a few while fouling less; which was a brobdingnagian problem his rookie year. On O he set better screens and rolled to the rim well, simplifying his roll.
RE: NBA Discussion - BostonCard - 10-20-2022
(10-19-2022, 06:58 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: That said, after watching them against the Warriors, wow are they not contenders. When you are starting Patrick Beverly you have major problems. But their bench is dreadful as well, like really bad.
I see we are back to making sweeping conclusions after one game.
BC
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 10-20-2022
(10-20-2022, 04:16 AM)lex24 Wrote: The Lakers are a mess. My guess is Westbrook will be traded.
They really should trade LeBron James. It's not like he is anything other than a mercenary, and he has said he will sign with whatever NBA team drafts his son.
To make the Westbrook trade, they would need to part with their only remaining first round picks the rest of this decade because the only way a team is taking him on is they want the draft compensation to do so.
If they trade LeBron they can at least get something back to build on in the form of draft capital and or young players with big upside.
As it is now, they could get Buddy Hield, not be good enough for title contention, and also piss away the draft picks. LeBron wants to win now, so put him on a team he can.
(10-20-2022, 07:21 AM)BostonCard Wrote:(10-19-2022, 06:58 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: That said, after watching them against the Warriors, wow are they not contenders. When you are starting Patrick Beverly you have major problems. But their bench is dreadful as well, like really bad.
I see we are back to making sweeping conclusions after one game.
BC
Make a case for us as to why the Lakers as constructed now shouldn't be written off.
RE: NBA Discussion - Phogge - 10-20-2022
Easy to see Morant as the most exciting player. Even the charge in regulation was a thing of beauty. Go Grizz!
leftcoast - Leftcoast - 10-20-2022
Quote:I see we are back to making sweeping conclusions after one game.
Well, one game, a fractious off season, a shallow line-up without shooters, a loaded West, and a disappointing 2021/22.
Other than that they may be OK.
Their 1 through 3 are pretty darn good, older but very good ... beyond that they have very little and what they do have doesn't mesh with the skillset of the top 3. Of course, they spent A LOT on the three names we know and to complete their team they needed a very specific type of complementary player. Unfortunately, EVERYONE is looking for long two-way players that can shoot from outside and defend the perimeter. Those players no longer come cheap as the Warrior's pay structure shows.
Speaking of which, wouldn't Wiggins or Poole be the 3rd best player on the Lakers? Maybe the 2nd if AD gets dinged like he has the past two years?; Would anyone beyond the Lakers top-3 crack the Warriors top 10? Here's the Lakers line-up from October 18. There may be some hidden gems here (Nunn?) but you'll need to look deep unless you like Beverly and that role is already filled on the Warriors.
I can see why the rest of the league is mad at the Warriors. They are breaking the salary cap to retain an 11 deep line-up of long, skilled players that would normally have drifted to other teams especially when they also broke the bank for their old guard starters. There are plenty of teams where Poole, Moody, Wiseman, Kuminga, J. Green, and DiVencenzo would be starting and instead they are locked onto the Warriors bench while (in some cases) getting star salaries. Warriors fans like me used to complain loudly about that sort of thing a life time and Curry ago.
LAKERS STARTERS
A. Davis-PF
L. James-SF
R. Westbrook-PG
P. Beverley-PG
L. Walker IV-G
LAKERS BENCH
M. Ryan-F
W. Gabriel-F
C. Swider-F
J. Toscano-Anderson-SF
A. Reaves-SG
K. Nunn-G
S. Pippen Jr.-G
M. Christie-G
D. Jones-C
RE: NBA Discussion - BostonCard - 10-21-2022
(10-20-2022, 02:42 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(10-20-2022, 04:16 AM)lex24 Wrote: The Lakers are a mess. My guess is Westbrook will be traded.
They really should trade LeBron James. It's not like he is anything other than a mercenary, and he has said he will sign with whatever NBA team drafts his son.
To make the Westbrook trade, they would need to part with their only remaining first round picks the rest of this decade because the only way a team is taking him on is they want the draft compensation to do so.
If they trade LeBron they can at least get something back to build on in the form of draft capital and or young players with big upside.
As it is now, they could get Buddy Hield, not be good enough for title contention, and also piss away the draft picks. LeBron wants to win now, so put him on a team he can.
(10-20-2022, 07:21 AM)BostonCard Wrote:(10-19-2022, 06:58 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: That said, after watching them against the Warriors, wow are they not contenders. When you are starting Patrick Beverly you have major problems. But their bench is dreadful as well, like really bad.
I see we are back to making sweeping conclusions after one game.
BC
Make a case for us as to why the Lakers as constructed now shouldn't be written off.
The case is that we are one game into an 82 game season, and that was against the defending NBA champs. Do I expect them to be great, no, for the reasons that Leftcoast articulated. But until they tank in order to get into the Wembanyama sweepstakes, I’m not going to write them off.
BC
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 10-21-2022
(10-21-2022, 12:06 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(10-20-2022, 02:42 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Make a case for us as to why the Lakers as constructed now shouldn't be written off.
The case is that we are one game into an 82 game season, and that was against the defending NBA champs. Do I expect them to be great, no, for the reasons that Leftcoast articulated. But until they tank in order to get into the Wembanyama sweepstakes, I’m not going to write them off.
BC
It's your prerogative, man. The Lakers are now 0-2, admittedly having lost to two of the top title contenders, but that's kind of the point of dismissing them. I'm curious if your reticence to write them off is based on a belief they might make a trade that could improve them to championship contender level? If so, that's a reasonable position to take. If not, it would seem to be a devil's advocate position for the sake of taking one rather than any actual conviction they are contenders.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-22-2022
(10-20-2022, 04:16 AM)lex24 Wrote: Wiseman obviously has ability. Harnessing it is another matter. He seems “soft”. But he has played very little basketball over the last 3 years. So, it’s going to take some time to see if he develops. Of course, he has to stay healthy.
I might be completely off base, but my take is that Wiseman isn't playing soft so much as he's playing tentative. Part of it is foul trouble, he actually did worse his second year in the league (6.5 PFs per 36 minutes, versus 5.2 his rookie year). I think as he gets more time on court, he'll develop more confidence, think less and react more, etc. And like any other big man, he's taking time to develop.
BTW, I see the Warriors' old guard playing less this regular season than last season...when they didn't play much at all. Last season, they were 53-29, I suspect they might end up closer to 46-36 this year, with the All-Stars averaging 20 - 25 minutes a game and around 50 games played each, then turning it on during the playoffs, like last year when all four played 22 games.