Outside Topic Way OT: Ukraine - Printable Version

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - cardcrimson - 04-03-2022

Massive losses, war crimes beyond belief, brutality run amok, economy in tatters, yet Putin has 83% approval in Russia. How can that be? In this day and age, how can so many be so brainwashed?

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2022-03-31/putins-support-strong-in-russia-amid-ukraine-war-poll

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - BigJohn043 - 04-03-2022

(04-03-2022, 07:36 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  To whoever was claiming they aren't certain Russians have targeted civilians, you can see this. Makes me think of the Band of Brothers episode titled "Why We Fight." For those not familiar, it's when American 82nd Airborne Forces discovered Nazi death camps.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1510524535879131141[/tweet]

Executing prisoners with their hands tied behind their back is about as clear of a war crime as there can be.  This will only harden UKR resolve.

One other interesting note, apparently this war is pretty popular in Russia.  Interesting thread:

https://twitter.com/an_oliinyk/status/1510263772757254145?s=20&t=zsWjGLwdyPyTpTMdbJqf8w

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - Softball Fan - 04-03-2022

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(04-03-2022, 11:15 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  Massive losses, war crimes beyond belief, brutality run amok, economy in tatters, yet Putin has 83% approval in Russia. How can that be? In this day and age, how can so many be so brainwashed?

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2022-03-31/putins-support-strong-in-russia-amid-ukraine-war-poll

Earlier today I saw that poll about 83% approval rating for Putin in Russia.  It looks like the idea of a Putin overthrow from within Russia is not near the threshold yet.  In some respects I feel the west is over emphasizing the idea of Putin being taken out of office and the Russian economy being devastated.

When talk of economic sanctions were first discussed in the west the Ruble plummeted in terms of the dollar.  It has since then recovered most of that loss and is not too far from where is was at the start of the Pandemic in 2020.

From the articles I read U.S. importers of Russian oil have until April 22 to take delivery of existing contracts so the ban of Russian oil by the U.S. has not really started yet.  Someone can correct me if they see different information.

Putin has a $700,000,000 yacht off the coast of Italy.  He is still in control of it; not that he has any use for it at the moment.

Putin had financially prepared himself for many months in advance prior to attacking Ukraine.  He thought out some of the scenarios of what the west might do.  The oligarchs may have been taken completely by surprise but from what I read Putin personally has no financial worries.

IMO the war will have to be won on the battlefield because the economic sanctions are not going to prevail; at least they won't prevail until after half of Ukraine is decimated.

Don't believe anything Putin says about negotiating.  He uses it as strategy for his advantage.   He keeps playing rope-a-dope.  The West gets their hopes up when they hear about negotiations and then a day later find out it was a Putin hoax.

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - BostonCard - 04-03-2022

(04-03-2022, 01:30 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  

(04-03-2022, 11:15 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  Massive losses, war crimes beyond belief, brutality run amok, economy in tatters, yet Putin has 83% approval in Russia. How can that be? In this day and age, how can so many be so brainwashed?

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2022-03-31/putins-support-strong-in-russia-amid-ukraine-war-poll

Maybe ask woman below? If we had state media like Russia does, we'd all believe insanity like this.
{tweet deleted}

Please keep this focused on Ukraine and keep American politics out of it. The space force, the former president, and the 2020 election are not relevant to this thread.

I have found this thread, for the most part, valuable.  Please don’t mess it up.

BC

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - PalmTree - 04-03-2022

Quote:I have found this thread, for the most part, valuable.  Please don’t mess it up.

BC

^^What BC said^^ - I've been pretty amazed by the knowledge and informed takes on the war I've read here, thanks for keeping on point

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - gailtate - 04-03-2022

(04-03-2022, 03:10 PM)PalmTree Wrote:  

Quote:I have found this thread, for the most part, valuable.  Please don’t mess it up.

BC

^^What BC said^^ - I've been pretty amazed by the knowledge and informed takes on the war I've read here, thanks for keeping on point

And I would take polls on Russians' opinion(s) of Putin with the same grain of salt as the "polls" conducted in the Myanmars and the Irans and the N.Koreas about their dear leaders.  At this point, I put credibility in the theory that Putin fancies himself as Franz Kafka as the cockroach would/could survive a nuclear attack. Why the hell not? BTW, a good portion of Russians see conspiracies everywhere. Like, grassy knolls wherever they look.

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - BostonCard - 04-03-2022

Poor Russian generals.

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2022/03/31/why-are-so-many-russian-generals-dying-in-ukraine

Looks like more Russian generals have been lost in five weeks in Ukraine than in 6 months in Afghanistan.

BC

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - Mick - 04-04-2022

(04-03-2022, 11:15 AM)cardcrimson Wrote:  Massive losses, war crimes beyond belief, brutality run amok, economy in tatters, yet Putin has 83% approval in Russia. How can that be? In this day and age, how can so many be so brainwashed?

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2022-03-31/putins-support-strong-in-russia-amid-ukraine-war-poll

Reminds me of the old joke. What's the difference between an American slave and a Russian slave?  An American slave wants freedom.  A Russian slave wants to be a slavemaster.

Doesn't surprise me that Putin has high approval ratings.  Former KGB, the USSR captured the world's attention as country after country fell under whichever thug was running Russia at the time. And Putin once said the breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of their time. Of course, their GDP is about the same as Chile's on a per capita basis (#57), but they are A-#1-you bet on atomic bombs.

So whether it is Stalin or Lenin or Putin, it doesn't matter.  Russians worship thugs.  BTW, I read once that an extremely high percentage of serial killers were either ethnically Russian or English.  Russian Mafia.  Doesn't surprise me much.

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - OutsiderFan - 04-04-2022

(04-03-2022, 02:01 PM)paloalto Wrote:  The West gets their hopes up when they hear about negotiations and then a day later find out it was a Putin hoax.

Who gets their hopes up?

People like me - and I don't think I'm in a small minority - know not to trust anything Russia says, and that it breaks agreements with impunity. The only way to contain Russia is with force and strength.

The whole reason Putin made Russia invade Ukraine was because he thought the west and NATO were weak. I've been reading about this from Russia experts since the 2016. Obama and the west invited Brexit and other Russian attacks on western democracies after not doing enough to push back on the 2014 annexation of Crimea. Western country political parties cozied up to Russia since 2014 - I will assume after Russian money washed into their political campaigns - and went soft on Russia. Allowing the Olympics in Sochi was just blindingly stupid, and the whole western world was OK with it. Ever trusting Russia under current management is a mistake and only enables more bad behavior.

If you look at the current map of Ukraine, the only way to contain Russia is force keeping it out, but even if Russia is driven out, even of Crimea, it is still completely capable of firing missiles and dropping bombs just to terrorize and destroy as much of Ukraine as possible. So the question becomes, what will the west do? Allow Ukraine to be slowly pulverized even without Russian Army in country, as long as tactical nukes and WMD aren't used? At some point a decision has to be made about going after Russia directly if Ukraine is to be salvaged as a functioning country, right?

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - fullmetal - 04-04-2022

The world has already lost Russia as a fertilizer and natural gas supplier due to sanctions.  Losing Ukraine as a global wheat producer will be terrible in the coming months.  The world needs Ukraine back to normal soon, but this doesn't look likely.  Many sad downstream effects are coming from an invasion already replete with horrific war crimes committed.

Eventually, Ukraine may get some kind of theater missile defense system if Russia doesn't stop the bombardment.  It'll take some time to train up the Ukrainian army and get the instruction manuals translated properly, but I don't know what other missile defense systems besides Patriot batteries would be as effective.  (Israel's Iron Dome would probably get rejected given their "neutrality" over the last month.)

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - TrumpCard - 04-04-2022

Of course NATO should provide Patriot batteries to Ukraine (along with all NATO members on the Eastern flank) in the near to medium term. Same goes for large numbers of javelins and stingers, as well as anti-ship missiles to coastal nations. Additional heavily armored brigades too. Etcetera. I foresee a significant military build up along the entire border between Russia (including Belarus) and Europe. As we’re seeing in Ukraine, a defensive posture is much stronger than an offensive one, so it will be difficult for Russia to take additional territory (assuming strong NATO commitment to defense). Russia might be able to cause damage and casualties with missile and artillery strikes, but Russia would not be able to accomplish its goal of reuniting the former soviet republics or otherwise expanding its territory.

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - OutsiderFan - 04-04-2022

If you read this thread, it sets up an us (western democracies) vs. them (Russia and whatever fascist allies it can stitch together) reality that cannot be avoided. This is how it always goes. We will either fight for what we believe in and depose Hitler, err I mean Putin, or be cowed and ultimately walked over by authoritarians. Biden's speech in Poland basically painted this picture.

My guess is the western democracies' intel services know what is coming, but also know we can't get in the war against Russia until a certain point that we have not reached yet. The parallels now to WW2 are stupid the same. In 1939-40, we watched Nazis raze and take over Europe, enabling mass genocide. Only when Japan hit us at Pearl Harbor did we wake up and realize the fascists would have to be defeated the world over.  At least now China hasn't joined with Russia, but I don't think it's gonna take a surprise attack by someone on the U.S. to get us involved in Ukraine and ultimately against Russia, because that's where this is leading. We'd all be better off to start massive deployments of U.S. forces to Europe. That's just how our world goes. Time for round three. Let's get it on and over with, shall we?

[tweet]https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1510910740261134338[/tweet]

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - dabigv13 - 04-04-2022

Russia has the ability to end the world. The US/NATO CANNOT get into open conflict with them, no matter how many war crimes Putin and his army commit.

The best we can do is give Ukraine the tools to do the job, which they have proved more than capable of doing.

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - gailtate - 04-04-2022

Looking ahead, if that is possible, two questions re reparations: (1) will liquidation of seized Russian assets be used to reconstruct/repair Ukraine and (2) when do we start seizing real estate?  Separately, who/what would preside over war-crimes trials?

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - dabigv13 - 04-04-2022

Serbian genocidaires did eventually have trials, but they didn't have nukes. There is nobody who can go arrest Putin, so really we can only hope that he will lose his grip on power to eventually face justice. If he does lose his grip on power, he may well face justice at the hands of his deposers before the west gets their chance. And BTW it's not like the US has much moral high ground on the issue of international justice for war crimes, not with folks like Eddie Gallagher not just free but celebrated by many Americans. If you're a big important country with nukes, there is no bigger authority that can compel just outcomes for war crimes.

Russia has many billions in western banks. It will be legally tricky to get to that money but I think there is more enthusiasm about doing some of those things, particularly if the money goes to rebuilding. Of course Ukraine has a lot of corruption and the US has shown in Iraq and Afghanistan that it sucks at rebuilding without losing most of the money to corruption on a local level and a US contractor level, so hopefully we have learned some lessons and can do better.

[Tweet]https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1511025538856538113?s=20&t=IUz_lWqxbp0RfQ8lSoGOmw[/tweet]

Crazy stuff. Not sure how easy it will be to punish this sort of war crime, but at least these looters should be readily identifiable. The whole Russian army is rotten.

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - M T - 04-04-2022

(04-04-2022, 12:13 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:  Crazy stuff. Not sure how easy it will be to punish this sort of war crime, but at least these looters should be readily identifiable. The whole Russian army is rotten.

I would phrase that as "The Russian army as a whole is rotten."  It may be that the general standard of conduct in that army is to tolerate or expect looting (and executions), but I'm not ready to say that every soldier is that way.  I hope that some Russians in the army have a morality that would recognize that as wrong.  I would anticipate that there has been looting to some extent by every army moving through its enemy's territory.

While I support economic sanctions as an attempt toward pursuing the cessation of a hot war, I could see Russians feeling that seizure of assets by the West as akin to, and perhaps greater than, the taking of an electric scooter.

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - gailtate - 04-04-2022

(04-04-2022, 03:15 PM)M T Wrote:  

(04-04-2022, 12:13 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:  Crazy stuff. Not sure how easy it will be to punish this sort of war crime, but at least these looters should be readily identifiable. The whole Russian army is rotten.

I would phrase that as "The Russian army as a whole is rotten."  It may be that the general standard of conduct in that army is to tolerate or expect looting (and executions), but I'm not ready to say that every soldier is that way.  I hope that some Russians in the army have a morality that would recognize that as wrong.  I would anticipate that there has been looting to some extent by every army moving through its enemy's territory.

While I support economic sanctions as an attempt toward pursuing the cessation of a hot war, I could see Russians feeling that seizure of assets by the West as akin to, and perhaps greater than, the taking of an electric scooter.

Rooskie-related cash, cash equivalents, goods, valuables and real estate add up to one HELLUVA lot of scooters. Motivated repo-men, in adequate numbers, could execute an impressive haul. You'd be surprised.

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - dabigv13 - 04-04-2022

There has been looting and murdering of civilians in pretty much every area occupied by Russian troops, comprising many different units. I presume there are some Russian soldiers who aren't looting, murdering war criminals but I don't think my phrasing is wrong and I don't really have much sympathy for any Russian soldier on Ukrainian land at this point. Defect, surrender, run away. They know what they're a part of by now.

And pretty weak to say "every invading army loots". Not the defense that would stand up in the Hague, that's for sure.

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - gailtate - 04-04-2022

(04-04-2022, 03:15 PM)M T Wrote:  

(04-04-2022, 12:13 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:  Crazy stuff. Not sure how easy it will be to punish this sort of war crime, but at least these looters should be readily identifiable. The whole Russian army is rotten.

I would phrase that as "The Russian army as a whole is rotten."  It may be that the general standard of conduct in that army is to tolerate or expect looting (and executions), but I'm not ready to say that every soldier is that way.  I hope that some Russians in the army have a morality that would recognize that as wrong.  I would anticipate that there has been looting to some extent by every army moving through its enemy's territory.

While I support economic sanctions as an attempt toward pursuing the cessation of a hot war, I could see Russians feeling that seizure of assets by the West as akin to, and perhaps greater than, the taking of an electric scooter.

"I hope that some Russians in the army have a morality that would recognize that as wrong..."

You cannot be serious. You actually think Russian grunts and the array of Syrian mercenaries and god-knows-who-all play by the Geneva Accords and the Marquess of Queensberry rules?! Their grandpas were the guys who caused Nazi SS troops to commit suicide rather than "surrender" to Zhukov's tender sensibilities. The Germans sprinted over broken glass barefooted to rush into American GI hands. My Purple Heart uncle witnessed it. The world has not changed one single whit. Somebody else on this board beat me to the old saw about the difference between American slaves and Russian slaves: American slaves dream of freedom, their Russian counterparts dream of being slave masters. W.T. Sherman was right of course but I still hope these grimy sadists suffer. Especially the apex predator atop the vodka/caviar food chain.

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RE: Way OT: Ukraine - lex24 - 04-04-2022

(04-04-2022, 03:40 PM)dabigv13 Wrote:  There has been looting and murdering of civilians in pretty much every area occupied by Russian troops, comprising many different units. I presume there are some Russian soldiers who aren't looting, murdering war criminals but I don't think my phrasing is wrong and I don't really have much sympathy for any Russian soldier on Ukrainian land at this point. Defect, surrender, run away. They know what they're a part of by now.

And pretty weak to say "every invading army loots". Not the defense that would stand up in the Hague, that's for sure.

Why do you think the Germans were praying the Allies would reach Berlin first…..My reply was done at same time as Gail’s. Gail’s is better…..

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(04-04-2022, 10:36 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:  If you read this thread, it sets up an us (western democracies) vs. them (Russia and whatever fascist allies it can stitch together) reality that cannot be avoided. This is how it always goes. We will either fight for what we believe in and depose Hitler, err I mean Putin, or be cowed and ultimately walked over by authoritarians. Biden's speech in Poland basically painted this picture.

My guess is the western democracies' intel services know what is coming, but also know we can't get in the war against Russia until a certain point that we have not reached yet. The parallels now to WW2 are stupid the same. In 1939-40, we watched Nazis raze and take over Europe, enabling mass genocide. Only when Japan hit us at Pearl Harbor did we wake up and realize the fascists would have to be defeated the world over.  At least now China hasn't joined with Russia, but I don't think it's gonna take a surprise attack by someone on the U.S. to get us involved in Ukraine and ultimately against Russia, because that's where this is leading. We'd all be better off to start massive deployments of U.S. forces to Europe. That's just how our world goes. Time for round three. Let's get it on and over with, shall we?

[tweet]https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1510910740261134338[/tweet]

I’ll remind you of Einstein’s comment:  I don’t know what weapons WWIII will be fought with.  But WW IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”  

This isn’t 1939.  6000 nukes make things a teeny bit different.

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