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RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-17-2022
Perfect storm brewing. I think it's a few things:
1) Thompson is off his game, comparatively out of shape, scared to test his legs, so his once-well tuned shot is now out of tune. If Thompson was at his normally self, they'd have 2-4 fewer losses and 2-4 more wins.
2) The Warriors are older, collectively.
3) No one is doing the thankless, defensive work. Either they can't or won't play defense.
4) When the Warriors had Durant, they were close to invincible. Durant's luster dimmed Draymond's star, and Draymond couldn't stand it, so he did what he could to eliminate him. It worked. They replaced Durant with a few not-ready-for-primetime players until they came across Wiggins. Wiggins was a near-perfect support player in a way that Harrison Barnes really wasn't.
5) The Warriors supporting players aren't as good as they were in prior years. Bogut. GP2. Otto Porter. Mark West. Livingston. The Warriors backups aren't nearly as good as their prior backups, which means the starters can't rest as much.
6) The Warriors' lottery picks (Wiseman, Kuminga, Moody) aren't ready for primetime, and it really, really shows. Kuminga pouted like crazy when he was in Santa Cruz, and essentially refuses to learn defense. And he's starting from far behind, but as far behind as he is, Wisemen is so far behind, he probably needs the rest of the season in Santa Cruz.
7) Poole is overrated. He doesn't play defense, he's streaky on offense, and he's a fragile player. That's why he works so well with the starters and so poorly with the backups.
Steph senses all of this, and has taken on the scoring responsibilities for himself. He's had too. This will be a non-playoff team. If they trade Kuminga and Wiseman for a young star, not a hurt older center like Anthony Davis. I doubt it will happen, Myers has too much invested in the parallel timelines. Neither Thompson nor Green will get extended, both are offering too little.
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 11-17-2022
This quickly went from two parallel timelines to no more years in which the stars are likely to align for the vets and young players.
Thompson has a year left on his very expensive deal. Green has a player option at a price that seems above his market. The Warriors could be stuck with those two next year. Maybe they can trade one of them and Wiseman/Kuminga for a package of role players.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 11-17-2022
it seems the obvious move is to trade Wiggins for Kevin Durant, if your priority is to win another championship more than try to balance two timelines. The problem is Wiggins just signed an extension, so can't be traded. Neither can Poole for the same reason.
This is a big problem because Wiggins is the only player the Warriors could trade that works with Durant. Perhaps the Warriors screwed up by signing Wiggins to his extension when they did, but they also didn't want him to test Free Agency.
Other than that, the only trade that works and makes sense is Wiseman and Kuminga for Durant. But then, how do you play Wiggins? Off the bench?
This would give you a lineup of:
C Looney
PF Green
SF Durant
SG Thompson
PG Curry
Second unit:
C J. Green
PF Lamb
SG Wiggins/ Moody
SG DiVincenzo/ Moody
PG Poole
Iguodala waiting in the wings.
That might actually win another championship.
The only thing that lineup lacks is a big Center, that the Warriors won a championship with last season.
Might make sense for the Warriors and Durant to swallow their pride (Warriors on two timelines/Durant going back to W's after failing in Brooklyn) and chase another ring
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 11-17-2022
(11-17-2022, 08:00 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: it seems the obvious move is to trade Wiggins for Kevin Durant, if your priority is to win another championship more than try to balance two timelines. The problem is Wiggins just signed an extension, so can't be traded. Neither can Poole for the same reason.
This is a big problem because Wiggins is the only player the Warriors could trade that works with Durant. Perhaps the Warriors screwed up by signing Wiggins to his extension when they did, but they also didn't want him to test Free Agency.
Other than that, the only trade that works and makes sense is Wiseman and Kuminga for Durant. But then, how do you play Wiggins? Off the bench?
This would give you a lineup of:
C Looney
PF Green
SF Durant
SG Thompson
PG Curry
Second unit:
C J. Green
PF Lamb
SG Wiggins/ Moody
SG DiVincenzo/ Moody
PG Poole
Iguodala waiting in the wings.
That might actually win another championship.
The only thing that lineup lacks is a big Center, that the Warriors won a championship with last season.
Might make sense for the Warriors and Durant to swallow their pride (Warriors on two timelines/Durant going back to W's after failing in Brooklyn) and chase another ring
Wiseman and Kuminga for Durant? You have to be kidding. Maybe Giants should trade Wade and Gonzalez for Harper…..
(11-17-2022, 06:29 AM)Mick Wrote: Perfect storm brewing. I think it's a few things:
1) Thompson is off his game, comparatively out of shape, scared to test his legs, so his once-well tuned shot is now out of tune. If Thompson was at his normally self, they'd have 2-4 fewer losses and 2-4 more wins.
2) The Warriors are older, collectively.
3) No one is doing the thankless, defensive work. Either they can't or won't play defense.
4) When the Warriors had Durant, they were close to invincible. Durant's luster dimmed Draymond's star, and Draymond couldn't stand it, so he did what he could to eliminate him. It worked. They replaced Durant with a few not-ready-for-primetime players until they came across Wiggins. Wiggins was a near-perfect support player in a way that Harrison Barnes really wasn't.
5) The Warriors supporting players aren't as good as they were in prior years. Bogut. GP2. Otto Porter. Mark West. Livingston. The Warriors backups aren't nearly as good as their prior backups, which means the starters can't rest as much.
6) The Warriors' lottery picks (Wiseman, Kuminga, Moody) aren't ready for primetime, and it really, really shows. Kuminga pouted like crazy when he was in Santa Cruz, and essentially refuses to learn defense. And he's starting from far behind, but as far behind as he is, Wisemen is so far behind, he probably needs the rest of the season in Santa Cruz.
7) Poole is overrated. He doesn't play defense, he's streaky on offense, and he's a fragile player. That's why he works so well with the starters and so poorly with the backups.
Steph senses all of this, and has taken on the scoring responsibilities for himself. He's had too. This will be a non-playoff team. If they trade Kuminga and Wiseman for a young star, not a hurt older center like Anthony Davis. I doubt it will happen, Myers has too much invested in the parallel timelines. Neither Thompson nor Green will get extended, both are offering too little.
Why would anyone trade a “young star” for Wiseman and Kuminga. Neither have shown they can play. Maybe if a team is tanking…..
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 11-17-2022
In the NBA, trades can't be made unless salaries involved in the trade match. Wiseman and Kuminga represent enough contract value to be traded for Durant's contract. I'm sure there would be some additional draft compensation for the Nets in such a trade as well.
This is nothing at all like two Giants scrubs for Bryce Harper. The Warriors have two 21 and younger lottery picks to offer, who have played very little basketball and have high upside, plus likely draft assets. The players the Nets get in return won't be as good as Kevin Durant, because Durant is a Top 10 player of all time, but they will allow the Nets to build again.
The Nets don't have a first round pick in '24, '25, or '26 at the moment, and they don't auger to be championship contenders in any of the time Durant has left on his Nets contract. Ben Simmons looks like a washout. Kyrie Irving can't be counted on.
It's not just me suggesting the Warriors should trade for Kevin Durant.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/FirstTake/status/1593273743173980161[/tweet]
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 11-19-2022
(11-17-2022, 11:55 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: In the NBA, trades can't be made unless salaries involved in the trade match. Wiseman and Kuminga represent enough contract value to be traded for Durant's contract. I'm sure there would be some additional draft compensation for the Nets in such a trade as well.
This is nothing at all like two Giants scrubs for Bryce Harper. The Warriors have two 21 and younger lottery picks to offer, who have played very little basketball and have high upside, plus likely draft assets. The players the Nets get in return won't be as good as Kevin Durant, because Durant is a Top 10 player of all time, but they will allow the Nets to build again.
The Nets don't have a first round pick in '24, '25, or '26 at the moment, and they don't auger to be championship contenders in any of the time Durant has left on his Nets contract. Ben Simmons looks like a washout. Kyrie Irving can't be counted on.
It's not just me suggesting the Warriors should trade for Kevin Durant.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/FirstTake/status/1593273743173980161[/tweet]
Neither Wiseman nor Kuminga have shown they can play. Where they were picked is, at this point, irrelevant. No way Brooklyn would let Durant go for those two, unless they decide to tank. They can get significantly more.
I’m aware salary match issue.
Wiseman is at a crossroads. The Warriors certainly wanted him to be part of the rotation this year. And he failed. Miserably. He’s at Santa Cruz, he’s going to get playing time he’s gonna work on his game. Eventually he’ll come back. That won’t happen, however, until he’s shown enough to be in the rotation. Because they’re not gonna stick him on the end of the bench to play at garbage time. It does nothing for his development.
If and when he comes back and if he shows he can play, then he perhaps becomes a viable member of the team or perhaps a trade chip. If not, then he’s most likely a bust.
Kuminga has shown a little more, but still not enough.
Whether the Warriors trade for Durant is a different issue than what you posited – which was getting him for Wiseman and Kuminga. Which is a pipe dream.
Also, there is the personality issue. Green and Durant are like oil and water.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-19-2022
(11-19-2022, 10:21 AM)lex24 Wrote: Neither Wiseman nor Kuminga have shown they can play. Where they were picked is, at this point, irrelevant. No way Brooklyn would let Durant go for those two, unless they decide to tank. They can get significantly more.
I’m aware salary match issue.
Wiseman is at a crossroads. The Warriors certainly wanted him to be part of the rotation this year. And he failed. Miserably. He’s at Santa Cruz, he’s going to get playing time he’s gonna work on his game. Eventually he’ll come back. That won’t happen, however, until he’s shown enough to be in the rotation. Because they’re not gonna stick him on the end of the bench to play at garbage time. It does nothing for his development.
If and when he comes back and if he shows he can play, then he perhaps becomes a viable member of the team or perhaps a trade chip. If not, then he’s most likely a bust.
Kuminga has shown a little more, but still not enough.
Whether the Warriors trade for Durant is a different issue than what you posited – which was getting him for Wiseman and Kuminga. Which is a pipe dream.
Also, there is the personality issue. Green and Durant are like oil and water.
Next year, Kuminga and Wiseman will make about $15.3 million collectively. Any trade should be near that point. Keep in mind that (a) Wiseman and Kuminga are at their low point in terms of value and (b) most NBA teams aren't looking to rebuild this early in the season, and that's basically what we're talking about. So here's a few, non-Durant-related suggestions:
1) Wing scorer from the Wizards; e.g., Daniel Gifford and Kyle Kuzma for Wiseman & Kuminga. Kuzma's a 27 year old 6'9" SF/PF averaging a near-career high at 18.5 ppg, but he's an inside scorer more than an outside scorer, but taking 8.1 rpg. Gafford is a 6'10" 24 year old PF/C who's a backup, but averages 10 rebs per 36 minutes. Kuzma's at $13 mms., Gafford is less than $2 million.
2) Warriors give up Wiseman/Kuminga for Wendell Carter Jr and Chuma Okeke from the 4-11 Orlando Magic. Carter is shooting 51% from the floor and 37% from 3 point range. He's averaging 16.6 with 9 rpg. Okeke is a 6'6" wing who's negligible talent. Total salary cost, about $17.5 mms. Both about 23.
3) Trade both for Lauri Markkanen, 25 year old All Star level forward from Utah. Markanen is averaging 21.3 ppg, 8.4 rebounds, 2.3 assists. He's a 7 footer. He makes $18 mms.
There's your trade options.
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 11-19-2022
If the warriors want to win now, they need to shore up their defense. The ideal would be someone who could fill the Andrew Bogut role from some of the earlier Warriors teams. Maybe Wiseman for Mason Plumlee would accomplish that. Plumlee is 32 and in the last year of his deal, and Charlotte isn’t a contender this year anyway. Maybe they want the upside of a younger player like Wiseman for a role player like Plumlee.
In retrospect, the Poole signing was a terrible deal for the warriors. They can’t trade him by rule, but also the contract is almost untradable given the cost and value proposition. Maybe Poole will turn it around. He’s reputed to be a hard worker.
RE: NBA Discussion - BostonCard - 11-19-2022
Plumlee is a name I haven’t heard of in some time. Weren’t we after him, back in the day? Or was it one of his brothers? As I recall, his dad was “heavily involved” in the recruiting.
BC
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-19-2022
(11-19-2022, 11:51 AM)TrumpCard Wrote: If the warriors want to win now, they need to shore up their defense. The ideal would be someone who could fill the Andrew Bogut role from some of the earlier Warriors teams. Maybe Wiseman for Mason Plumlee would accomplish that. Plumlee is 32 and in the last year of his deal, and Charlotte isn’t a contender this year anyway. Maybe they want the upside of a younger player like Wiseman for a role player like Plumlee.
In retrospect, the Poole signing was a terrible deal for the warriors. They can’t trade him by rule, but also the contract is almost untradable given the cost and value proposition. Maybe Poole will turn it around. He’s reputed to be a hard worker.
If he really focuses on defense, he could be the next Klay Thompson...
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 11-20-2022
Donte DeVincenzo and JyMichael Green have been poor substitutes for Payton, Porter, and Bjellica. I didn't appreciate just how much the bench contributed to the team last year. Seeing the +/- in the box scores this year makes it clear how much the team misses the guys who left for greener pastures.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-20-2022
On the good side, the Warriors won their first home game and Klay Thompson found his shot, going 10 for 13 from 3 point range. Also, the Warriors -- for the first time ever -- had three players with at least six threes in a game; Klay, Steph and Wiggins.
On the not-so-good side, the Warriors won 127-120, giving up 120 points to the 3-14 Houston Astros, and looked terrible on defense. The Warriors backups were all in the "minus" range, led by Kuminga at -12, whereas Steph, Klay and Draymond were +22, +14 and +18. Moody was +8, the only sub with a positive score, and he only played five minutes. The starters were 23/39 from three point range, the backups were 1 for 8.
Warriors play the 9-7 Pelicans in New Orleans tomorrow night. Matchup predictor shows 60% chance of Pelicans winning.
RE: NBA Discussion - BostonCard - 11-20-2022
(11-20-2022, 07:38 PM)Mick Wrote: On the not-so-good side, the Warriors won 127-120, giving up 120 points to the 3-14 Houston Astros…
They must be really bad to give up that many points to a baseball team, even if they did win the World Series, LOL.
BC
RE: NBA Discussion - CompSci87 - 11-21-2022
LOL
It was great to see Klay really get going. But with that there was an even more stark difference between the starters looking super and the second unit atrocious. If Igoudala is ever ready to play, maybe he could run the point for the second unit and get them to play something vaguely like Warriors basketball.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 11-21-2022
(11-21-2022, 12:40 AM)CompSci87 Wrote: LOL
It was great to see Klay really get going. But with that there was an even more stark difference between the starters looking super and the second unit atrocious. If Igoudala is ever ready to play, maybe he could run the point for the second unit and get them to play something vaguely like Warriors basketball.
Ya, while it was great to see Klay break out, the fact is the Warriors once again gave up 120 points and only won by 7 when Steph and Klay combined for 74 points and the team made 24-47 (51%) 3-pt and 54% FG overall. That should be a blow-out win. If the Warriors even shoot 40% from 3, they likely lose because the Rockets had 5 fewer turnovers, 5 more rebounds, and shot 12 more FTs.
It's nice to win any game, but it was a squeaker with what could be the best shooting performance the W's have all season, against a 3-14 team. The Warriors have now played the 4 worst teams in the NBA on the road, with a combined 15-55 record, and are 1-3 in those games.
The Warriors still have big problems. Would be shocked if they win in New Orleans given they are likely to rest a few starters in second of back-to-back games.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 12-26-2022
It's been over a month since an NBA thread post, and I made the last one, so a little reticent to post again but...
I watched The Volume's Hoops Tonight on YouTube this morning and am amazed. The Warriors are 13-2 at home and 3-16 on the road this year, including haven beaten arguably the two best teams in the NBA, the Celtics and Grizzlies handily. But the splits are even more bizarre than just the record difference in and outside Chase. Basically, the Warriors play defense at home and don't on the road. Or as Jason Timpf put it, the parts of the game that are hard, the Warriors do well at home but are terrible on the road. This seems to point to effort, but it's weird because the Warriors under Kerr have always been about winning when their backs are to the wall, when everything is against them, as happens in the road. But this year to date, the Warriors have mailed it on the road for whatever reason. And this also should put to rest the notion there is some lingering impact from Green punching Poole. They'd be bad at home and road if that was a thing.
The conventional wisdom when Curry hurt his shoulder was the W's would struggle without him. Well, the stats - and now beating the Grizzlies without Curry or Wiggins - show that even were Curry playing, the Warriors would have a terrible road record. Does this team really just think it can flip a switch and start winning on the road when they are must win games?
The Box Score from Grizzles game belied the story of the season so far. Kuminga +21 and Wiseman +8. They didn't score much, but played roles that impact winning. Wiseman didn't even attempt a shot, and he was more valuable than when he scored 30 in the blowout loss in Brooklyn.
It really does appear there is some sort of method to the Warriors' madness. Like they are trying to build toward a finished product that can win in the playoffs. I'm skeptical, in part because if the W's wouldn't even make the play-in game if the season ended today. But the approach taken by a team with 6 Finals appearances and 4 titles in the last 8 seasons can't be dismissed, can it?
RE: NBA Discussion - Phogge - 12-26-2022
As a person worthy of derision on Thunderdome, Dad Plumlee is right up there with Trojan Al, Hec Spec, Amy and a few unnamed regular posters.
Thanks Amy.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 12-26-2022
(12-26-2022, 07:08 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: It's been over a month since an NBA thread post, and I made the last one, so a little reticent to post again but...
I watched The Volume's Hoops Tonight on YouTube this morning and am amazed. The Warriors are 13-2 at home and 3-16 on the road this year, including haven beaten arguably the two best teams in the NBA, the Celtics and Grizzlies handily. But the splits are even more bizarre than just the record difference in and outside Chase. Basically, the Warriors play defense at home and don't on the road. Or as Jason Timpf put it, the parts of the game that are hard, the Warriors do well at home but are terrible on the road. This seems to point to effort, but it's weird because the Warriors under Kerr have always been about winning when their backs are to the wall, when everything is against them, as happens in the road. But this year to date, the Warriors have mailed it on the road for whatever reason. And this also should put to rest the notion there is some lingering impact from Green punching Poole. They'd be bad at home and road if that was a thing.
The conventional wisdom when Curry hurt his shoulder was the W's would struggle without him. Well, the stats - and now beating the Grizzlies without Curry or Wiggins - show that even were Curry playing, the Warriors would have a terrible road record. Does this team really just think it can flip a switch and start winning on the road when they are must win games?
The Box Score from Grizzles game belied the story of the season so far. Kuminga +21 and Wiseman +8. They didn't score much, but played roles that impact winning. Wiseman didn't even attempt a shot, and he was more valuable than when he scored 30 in the blowout loss in Brooklyn.
It really does appear there is some sort of method to the Warriors' madness. Like they are trying to build toward a finished product that can win in the playoffs. I'm skeptical, in part because if the W's wouldn't even make the play-in game if the season ended today. But the approach taken by a team with 6 Finals appearances and 4 titles in the last 8 seasons can't be dismissed, can it?
Moody was +2 in 17 minutes. The real revelation was that Wiseman was +8 in just 8 minutes with 5 rebounds and just one foul, no turnovers. Not too shabby against that team. He's a sloppy player and doesn't yet have a refined game, but I think that will come with time, experience and training.
I'm a little iffy on the whole +/- metric. It reflects five players, not just the one. Lamb, for instance, was -5 in 17 minutes, but he was 4/5 from the field and 3/4 from three, with two steals, three rebounds, an assist and a block. He did his job. And Looney's usually reliable, but yesterday, he was -3 with five rebounds, 4 assists a steal and a block. And four personal fouls. DiVincenzo was the worst at -9 in 31 minutes. He was 7/12, and 5/9 from 3, with 3 rebounds, 3 assistss, 1 steal, zero turnovers and just two fouls. Sounds like a good night, but he had the worst +/-. He's a very strong defender, ranking sixth on the team on nba.com player defense rating. Kuminga, Moody and Wiseman all rank poorly.
Players Defense | Stats | NBA.com
BTW, the Warriors are on pace to set a single season NBA record in disparity between home and away records.
RE: NBA Discussion - BostonCard - 12-27-2022
60/21/10
That’s it. That’s the post.
BC
RE: NBA Discussion - skip75 - 12-28-2022
(12-27-2022, 10:21 PM)BostonCard Wrote: 60/21/10"Man, I'm tired as hell. I need a recovery beer."
That’s it. That’s the post.
BC