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Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - terry - 11-08-2015

(11-08-2015, 07:35 AM)winflop link Wrote:I think the most the University can do is kick them off the team and revoke their scholarships. 


I think kicking the players off the team and pulling their scholarships would pretty much kill Missouri's football program and its recruiting for years. Would the university really want to get a reputation for kicking players off the team for taking a stand? What recruit would want to go there? I think the university will work hard to avoid doing something that drastic.

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - 81alum - 11-08-2015

In 1968,  Tony Jackson, a black captain of the SJSU football team, led the black players at SJSU on a boycott of the 1968 BYU game.  The players thought they would lose their scholarships over the incident, so it was a very serious decision for 18-21 year old students from mostly poor backgrounds to take.  Jackson, by the way, went on to become a Marine Corps general.  He was the SJSU commencement speaker a few years back.

A few years later The next year the Wyoming black players led a similar boycott of the BYU game, with very serious consequences for themselves and for the Wyoming program, that never really recovered.  Wyoming did remove the players, but this not only killed the team (it went from a top 15 team to a one-win team the next year,) it killed recruiting for years and years. 

http://www.wyohistory.org/essays/black-14-race-politics-religion-and-wyoming-football

There is some precedent for this.  The results have been mixed.  But I think if you asked General Jackson today if he did the right thing, he would say emphatically "yes."


Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - stupac2 - 11-08-2015

(11-08-2015, 11:14 AM)81alum link Wrote:In 1968,  Tony Jackson, a black captain of the SJSU football team, led the black players at SJSU on a boycott of the 1968 BYU game.  The players thought they would lose their scholarships over the incident, so it was a very serious decision for 18-21 year old students from mostly poor backgrounds to take.  Jackson, by the way, went on to become a Marine Corps general.  He was the SJSU commencement speaker a few years back.

A few years later the Wyoming black players led a similar boycott of the BYU game, with very serious consequences for themselves and for the Wyoming program, that never really recovered.  Wyoming did remove the players, but this not only killed the team (it went from a top 15 team to a one-win team the next year,) it killed recruiting for years and years. 

http://www.wyohistory.org/essays/black-14-race-politics-religion-and-wyoming-football

There is some precedent for this.  The results have been mixed.  But I think if you asked General Jackson today if he did the right thing, he would say emphatically "yes."

Were they protesting BYU both those times, or is that a coincidence?

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - 81alum - 11-08-2015

Yes, at the time BYU did not admit black students for religious reasons.  That was the reason for both the SJSU and the Wyoming protests.  So the immediate cause of the boycotts led by black players in 1968 and 1969 is somewhat different than the cause of the boycott announced by the Missouri players.  The 1960s boycotts were protesting an obvious and admitted racially exclusive admissions policy, while the Missouri students are protesting what they view as an inadequate response to a series of racist incidents.  Given the incidents at Ferguson, I can well believe that the atmosphere at Missouri is highly charged.  The President there should certainly have been on notice long ago that his response to racist incidents would be scrutinized.

Funny you should mention BYU - Redrum - 11-08-2015

As noted elsewhere on this board, BYU will be playing San Jose St. next week I believe.  The world turns.  The interesting thing is, if the whole team and coach are behind the players, will the whole team not show up to play an SEC football game?  If so they would really be messing with a higher power.

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - BobK - 11-08-2015

Of course about this time frame Stanford refused to play BYU in any sport 

Re: Funny you should mention BYU - terry - 11-08-2015

(11-08-2015, 11:35 AM)Redrum link Wrote:As noted elsewhere on this board, BYU will be playing San Jose St. next week I believe.  The world turns.


BYU played San Jose State last night.

Re: Funny you should mention BYU - Redrum - 11-08-2015

(11-08-2015, 11:39 AM)terry link Wrote:[quote author=Redrum link=topic=13558.msg140379#msg140379 date=1447007757]
As noted elsewhere on this board, BYU will be playing San Jose St. next week I believe.  The world turns.


BYU played San Jose State last night.
[/quote]

See?  I told you the world was turning. Just faster than I thought.

AND...where's Kathy in all this?

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - 81alum - 11-08-2015

Actually, I should correct the record.  As far as I can tell, BYU did not actually ban black admissions.  The LDS Church, however, prohibited blacks from becoming lay priests up until 1978, and as a religious university it did have requirements that made it unlikely that any black student would wish to attend a university in which he had to take part in racially discriminatory services.  In 1972 BYU had its first black football player, Bennie Smith, but he complained about racial discrimination and was suspended from the team during his first semester.

The 1978 reversal of this policy has been much discussed as a major step forward for the LDS church and for BYU, which began to recruit black athletes after the decision.  However, controversies about race at BYU have continued.  The BYU honor code, which is very strict and socially conservative, has been frequently enforced against black male athletes, and each time there are fresh media stories about a possible racial bias. 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-05-02/opinion/ct-oped-0502-byu-20110502_1_honor-code-black-men-byu

Meanwhile, there are now 181 black students at BYU, out of 27,765 students.

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - CompSci87 - 11-08-2015

(11-08-2015, 11:00 AM)winflop link Wrote:Dorm security was absolutely lax in my day, but based on my experience with my son at Marquette, it's not that way today.

At Marquette, every dorm entrance is staffed and you cannot get past there unless you have a student ID or someone with a student ID meets you at the desk.  Maybe that's a function of Marquette being an urban campus, but I think that something that happens inside a dorm room is either done by someone with access or someone deliberately let in by a person with access.

Marquette is an urban campus and the surrounding neighborhood is a bit iffy.  I did my undergrad there way back when, but lived far off campus with my parents. I don't remember what dorm security was like in the '70s, but am not surprised it's tight today.

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - winflop - 11-08-2015

(11-08-2015, 01:14 PM)CompSci87 link Wrote:[quote author=winflop link=topic=13558.msg140366#msg140366 date=1447005602]
Dorm security was absolutely lax in my day, but based on my experience with my son at Marquette, it's not that way today.

At Marquette, every dorm entrance is staffed and you cannot get past there unless you have a student ID or someone with a student ID meets you at the desk.  Maybe that's a function of Marquette being an urban campus, but I think that something that happens inside a dorm room is either done by someone with access or someone deliberately let in by a person with access.

Marquette is an urban campus and the surrounding neighborhood is a bit iffy.  I did my undergrad there way back when, but lived far off campus with my parents. I don't remember what dorm security was like in the '70s, but am not surprised it's tight today.
[/quote]

The neighborhood has gotten better as Marquette has been buying up some of the surrounding property.  Also, they finally made their campus police actual officers last summer (not just unarmed "campus security") and the older students say that has made a REAL difference in safety around campus.  My kid's a frosh so I have no point of reference from him, but he tells me he's never felt unsafe so far.

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - martyup - 11-08-2015

(11-08-2015, 11:14 AM)81alum link Wrote:http://www.wyohistory.org/essays/black-14-race-politics-religion-and-wyoming-football

The Black 14 of Wyoming have a completely different story.  According to the article, they wanted to join the protest against BYU and went to talk to their coach about it.  They wore black armbands to the meeting, which was a symbol of support for the protest.  Rather than have a rational discussion with his players about whether and how they might participate in the protest, he summarily dismissed them from team, citing their violation of team rules that prohibited their involvement in protests and demonstrations.  They wanted to play against BYU and were willing to play without the armbands.  They were denied that opportunity.  They gave the University no ultimatum.  The rash decision by the Wyoming coach led to severe damage to the football program and the University.

The Missouri players are holding their University hostage in an attempt to get the President fired.  I have yet to hear anyone articulate a specific action or inaction by the President that has caused or exacerbated the racial tensions at the school.  Nonetheless, these players are willing to hurt their non-black teammates, the coaches, staff, and the entire University in an effort to remove the President. 

I hope these players continue to work towards racial tolerance and equality at the University of Missouri.  I also hope that they do so while playing football.  I'm afraid that they are being influenced by activists who have a lot less to lose than these players.  It would be sad if Missouri football follows the path of the Wyoming program.

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - 81alum - 11-08-2015

(11-08-2015, 03:21 PM)martyup link Wrote:[quote author=81alum link=topic=13558.msg140372#msg140372 date=1447006459]

http://www.wyohistory.org/essays/black-14-race-politics-religion-and-wyoming-football

The Black 14 of Wyoming have a completely different story.  According to the article, they wanted to join the protest against BYU and went to talk to their coach about it.  They wore black armbands to the meeting, which was a symbol of support for the protest.  Rather than have a rational discussion with his players about whether and how they might participate in the protest, he summarily dismissed them from team, citing their violation of team rules that prohibited their involvement in protests and demonstrations.  They wanted to play against BYU and were willing to play without the armbands.  They were denied that opportunity.  They gave the University no ultimatum.  The rash decision by the Wyoming coach led to severe damage to the football program and the University.

The Missouri players are holding their University hostage in an attempt to get the President fired.  I have yet to hear anyone articulate a specific action or inaction by the President that has caused or exacerbated the racial tensions at the school.  Nonetheless, these players are willing to hurt their non-black teammates, the coaches, staff, and the entire University in an effort to remove the President. 

I hope these players continue to work towards racial tolerance and equality at the University of Missouri.  I also hope that they do so while playing football.  I'm afraid that they are being influenced by activists who have a lot less to lose than these players.  It would be sad if Missouri football follows the path of the Wyoming program.
[/quote]
I'd have to invest a considerable amount of time in reading about the University of Missouri situation before I would know whether I think the players are or are not justified.  But each one of those players knows full well that he is risking his scholarship and possibly his future by doing what he is doing.  And yet they are willing to take the risk.  Regardless of whether we agree with their decision to strike, it is a courageous thing for them to do, and I respect them for it.  In a time when talk is cheap, these very young people are putting their careers on the line for something they believe. 

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - Mick - 11-08-2015

(11-08-2015, 10:49 AM)garvin link Wrote:
Quote:There are multiple students, I believe, holding hunger strikes over this. So it's not as if the football team has unilaterally decided this is a matter of concern and are forcing the university to go along.

That's my point. The university, rightly or wrongly, has declined to take drastic action up to this point. If it does so now in response to a threat by the football team, we'll know who really matters on that campus.


I hate to say it, but I suspect the response would be different if the team were 8-0 and not 3-5.

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - martyup - 11-08-2015

Apparently the coach tweeted that he and his staff stand with his players.  I sure would like to hear what President Wolfe did, or didn't do to warrant the demand that he resign.  Even if he resigns,  the problem will not be solved.  However, if this protest works, I fear the precedent it may create. 

My first reaction to this incident was that the players over played their hand.  I was worried about them.  Now I'm worried that they will win the battle, but we will all lose.

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - Leftcoast - 11-08-2015

I recall at least 6 different protests while I was on campus that demanded Don Kennedy resign.  I'm glad the football team didn't feel compelled to join in mass although I remember several players joined as individuals.  The calls for Kennedy's resignation usually had more to do with going after a symbolic figurehead than anything Kennedy had personally done. Many of the protestors I knew rather liked Kennedy.

I wonder if the Missouri protestors really feel Wolfe's resignation will solve anything or if they just want to bag a large trophy?

Facts of this case aside,  I generally applaud individuals standing for deeply held convictions.  I'm less supportive of the team using their platform for something with no tangible connection to sports.  It opens the team to charges of inappropriate brinksmanship or grandstanding.  The lack of connection between platform and cause is the big difference between the SJS comparison and Missouri.

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - BostonCard - 11-08-2015

Its also possible that the president's response has been entirely counterproductive and that the precedent that it creates may be a positive one.

Didn't we have a poster here MissouCard, who was a dean at the law school there before taking a position at Wyoming?  I'd be curious if he still lurks and has an opinion.

BC

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - washingtonismoney - 11-08-2015

It seems the politicians are getting involved as well: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/the-buzz/article43682574.html

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - BostonCard - 11-08-2015

https://twitter.com/garypinkel/status/663410502370856960

BC

Re: Meanwhile in Missouri - winflop - 11-08-2015

The Athletic Department has given a non-endorsement endorsement.  I get the sense this is more serious than your average student protest.  It appears there have been several incidents and peaceful requests for action that have been ignored by the school president.

https://twitter.com/MizzouAthletics/status/663205211452764160