Sad day for the USMNT - Printable Version
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Re: Sad day for the USMNT - Farm93 - 10-11-2017
Now our government won't be distracted with the optics of going or not going to Russia in 2018. Hopefully the ability to remove that likely distraction will be a benefit for the USA. (Silver lining if you will.)
The problem wasn't the loss to T&T as in soccer any one game can have an unfavorable result. T&T, at home, had done OK in the Hex as all of the home games were close. The problem was the USA team was in a position to need a result in game #10. Should not have happened, but I must confess as I watched the US vs CONCACAF in games this year I always had the impression that the team probably would not do well in Russia.
FWIW - The final USA Hex game was on some obscure network. In most countries, given that the team had not clinched, that contest would have been on a very prominent national network. The fact the game was on a network I had never watched before says all you need to know about USA soccer.
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - North Woods - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 08:32 AM)Farm93 link Wrote:Now our government won't be distracted with the optics of going or not going to Russia in 2018. Hopefully the ability to remove that likely distraction will be a benefit for the USA. (Silver lining if you will.)
The problem wasn't the loss to T&T as in soccer any one game can have an unfavorable result. T&T, at home, had done OK in the Hex as all of the home games were close. The problem was the USA team was in a position to need a result in game #10. Should not have happened, but I must confess as I watched the US vs CONCACAF in games this year I always had the impression that the team probably would not do well in Russia.
FWIW - The final USA Hex game was on some obscure network. In most countries, given that the team had not clinched, that contest would have been on a very prominent national network. The fact the game was on a network I had never watched before says all you need to know about USA soccer.
Agree it should never have come down to last game. This shows we are not competitive enough especially given the population and resources at our disposal.
Regarding the tv coverage: The rights to World Cup qualifiers around the globe are owned by the home teams federation, which may do with them as it wishes. Its surprising that a bigger network didnt buy out the rights to this. But technically not in direct control of USSF.
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - cardcrimson - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 08:15 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:Sucks for the USMNT and fans, but I loathe the idea of participating in anything to do with Russia. They are wreaking havoc all over the world, hacking countries, sowing political divisions, engaging in an illegal war in Ukraine, funding and promoting anti-democratic dictators, kleptocracies, killing journalists, and on and on. And I am certain - just like Qatar - there was serious corruption involved with the Russia World Cup bid as well.
I love the World Cup as an event, but it should never be in Russia given its role as chief underminer of liberal democracies and personal freedom the world over. Though FIFA is too corrupt to be bothered by such mundane facts, at least with the USA not in the World Cup, the U.S. media will pay less attention to it. The less glorification of Russia the better, IMO.
Well, now you can look forward to the World Cup in Qatar. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - BostonCard - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 08:32 AM)Farm93 link Wrote:The problem wasn't the loss to T&T as in soccer any one game can have an unfavorable result. T&T, at home, had done OK in the Hex as all of the home games were close. The problem was the USA team was in a position to need a result in game #10. Should not have happened, but I must confess as I watched the US vs CONCACAF in games this year I always had the impression that the team probably would not do well in Russia.
No, it was worse than it appears. Trinidad/Tobago had won one match. They were already eliminated and had nothing to play for. They were already on their third coach. They moved the match 45 minutes outside of Port-au-Prince so nobody would see it (and nobody came). Their best player was suspended. They weren't playing a single veteran over 29; they were trying to get their younger players experience for the next World Cup.
BC
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - Mick - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 09:32 AM)Boston Card link Wrote:[quote author=Farm93 link=topic=17658.msg205720#msg205720 date=1507735929]
The problem wasn't the loss to T&T as in soccer any one game can have an unfavorable result. T&T, at home, had done OK in the Hex as all of the home games were close. The problem was the USA team was in a position to need a result in game #10. Should not have happened, but I must confess as I watched the US vs CONCACAF in games this year I always had the impression that the team probably would not do well in Russia.
No, it was worse than it appears. Trinidad/Tobago had won one match. They were already eliminated and had nothing to play for. They were already on their third coach. They moved the match 45 minutes outside of Port-au-Prince so nobody would see it (and nobody came). Their best player was suspended. They weren't playing a single veteran over 29; they were trying to get their younger players experience for the next World Cup.
BC
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That is truly pathetic.
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - Farm93 - 10-11-2017
FWIW - I realize the USSF didn't necessarily have a choice, but the idea that no major network wanted that prime time sporting event on a Tuesday night says a lot about USA soccer.
FWIW2 - It was easier to find the Mexico game on TV last night, and that says even more about soccer in the USA.
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - washingtonismoney - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 10:04 AM)Farm93 link Wrote:FWIW - I realize the USSF didn't necessarily have a choice, but the idea that no major network wanted that prime time sporting event on a Tuesday
FWIW2 - It was easier to find the Mexico game on TV last night, and that says even more about soccer in the USA.
It says nothing about soccer in the USA. The schedule is set by FIFA, not the broadcasters. The home team sells the rights and quite frequently sells them to odd operators (one year Mexican fans got pissed off because some home team sold the Mexican rights to a shady pay per view outfit.)
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - ColoradoTree - 10-11-2017
We've been flirting with disaster at center back all qualifying cycle, and it finally bit us. Some of that is bad luck--John Brooks is still injured--but some was coaching--playing the disappointing Gonzalez-Besler combo instead of putting in Geoff Cameron.Â
There are plenty of failures up and down the development pipeline. But I'm not educated enough to comment on what needs to change at that level, aside from reducing the negative impacts of pay-to-play on development/travel teams. (It's an undeniable barrier of entry to stronger developmental tracks, and while there is some money set aside to ease that burden on poorer families, something is wrong when the percentage of Latino players in NCAA soccer is drastically lower than the percentage of Latino players at youth levels.)Â
What does seem apparent is that this team was significantly more talented than the players from Trinidad & Tobago, but nonetheless failed to play with any kind of fire or intensity until the second half, and even then failed to sustain that level of urgency for very long. (To clarify an earlier point in this thread, there are 3 MLS players on the T&T team, but two of them, Minnesota's Kevin Molino and Colorado's Mekeil Williams, didn't even play, and the third, Seattle's Joevin Jones, only came on in the 72nd minute. So, for 72 minutes, there was no T&T player on that T&T team that plays high-level club soccer.) That lack of urgency is what's most appalling in the moment, and while plenty of players shoulder blame for that, there is no one person more responsible for that lack of urgency than Bruce Arena. His contract was only set to run through the 2018 World Cup anyway, so his tenure is effectively done, but I'm still surprised we didn't see a Kiffin-style tarmac firing. This was likely the most humiliating result in U.S. soccer history, taking expectations, the size of the stage, and the talent levels of both teams into account. Sunil Gulati failing to respond to that with immediate, swift action is mind-boggling. To respond to this epic failure with equanimity and a pledge not to overreact misjudges the moment entirely. Gulati's tenure is up in the spring anyway, so perhaps he bows out, but when the failure is this monumental, the bloodletting that follows should be substantial.Â
And lest you think I'm letting the players off the hook, I'm not. Pulisic and Yedlin aside, the effort in this match was dreadful, and it's now abundantly clear that the veteran core of this team for the last several years is going to move on, likely forcibly. Tim Howard has been a step slow for over a year now, and we've likely seen his last competitive international appearance. Clint Dempsey was (quite rightly) reduced to a super-sub role later this cycle, and he's likely out, too. (Not their last caps--they can expect, and rightly deserve, some farewell friendlies next year--but their last meaningful caps.) As has been noted in this thread, there are promising young players coming up, and we should expect not only qualification in 2022, but a respectable tournament run as well. This was a forest fire, and while they can be devastating, they also clear the way for new growth to emerge. If U.S. Soccer learns that lesson well and our trajectory for 2022 and beyond is improved, then good can come of this. If U.S. Soccer is content to merely make tweaks, however, then we will continue to be middling as a soccer power.Â
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - Farm93 - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 10:18 AM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:[quote author=Farm93 link=topic=17658.msg205745#msg205745 date=1507741459]
FWIW - I realize the USSF didn't necessarily have a choice, but the idea that no major network wanted that prime time sporting event on a Tuesday
FWIW2 - It was easier to find the Mexico game on TV last night, and that says even more about soccer in the USA.
It says nothing about soccer in the USA. The schedule is set by FIFA, not the broadcasters. The home team sells the rights and quite frequently sells them to odd operators (one year Mexican fans got pissed off because some home team sold the Mexican rights to a shady pay per view outfit.)
[/quote]
Yes, FIFA has all six teams in the Hex play their final game at the same time.Â
Here in the USA, the Spanish language channels picked up the Mexico vs Honduras game (for the ratings, for fear of backlash from a large passionate and powerful group, or whatever). A game which didn't even mean anything to Mexico's World Cup chances BTW.
Meanwhile, at the very same time (per FIFA's normal policy for final games in a stage), the USA vs T&T game was left to some network I had never heard of even though the USA needed a result to clinch a spot for Russia 2018. Fox, ABC, Fox Sports, FS1, FS2, ESPN, ESPN2 all regulars in soccer coverage skipped the event to show...baseball, preseason NBA, preseason NHL, etc. etc. None of those broadcasting groups feared some massive USMNT fanbase backlash and/or expected anyone to watch.
Those broadcasting choices say a lot about USA Soccer and the popularity of non-USMNT soccer here in the USA.
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - washingtonismoney - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 11:03 AM)Farm93 link Wrote:Here in the USA, the Spanish language channels picked up the Mexico vs Honduras game (for the ratings, for fear of backlash from a large passionate and powerful group, or whatever). A game which didn't even mean anything to Mexico's World Cup chances BTW.
Meanwhile, at the very same time (per FIFA's normal policy for final games in a stage), the USA vs T&T game was left to some network I had never heard of even though the USA needed a result to clinch a spot for Russia 2018. Fox, ABC, Fox Sports, FS1, FS2, ESPN, ESPN2 all regulars in soccer coverage skipped the event to show...baseball, preseason NBA, preseason NHL, etc. etc. None of those broadcasting groups feared some massive USMNT fanbase backlash and/or expected anyone to watch.
Those broadcasting choices say a lot about USA Soccer and the popularity of non-USMNT soccer here in the USA.
No, I'm trying to tell you that that's not how it works. The home team owns the broadcast rights for both teams. It sold the rights to BeIn Sports. ESPN would've loved to have the game; it went all out on the Panama game and then covered the loss extensively. I'm sure Fox would've loved it too. But BeIn Sports -- a network owned by wealthy Qataris -- is trying to establish itself and paid way over the odds for the rights to the U.S.'s away games.
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - teejers1 - 10-11-2017
1. The loss last night - and the players' appearing to just "go through the motions" - easily qualifies as the most epic fail in USMNT history. Really disgraceful. I feel sorry for Pulisic who played his arse off and was weeping post-match.
2. The TnT loss was perfectly encapsulated by EMPTY stadium. Nobody on the island gave a $hit about the game, and the U.S. still lost. Nice going.
3. Klinsmann may have been a bad coach - I really don't know - but he had one thing right: favor the U.S. players who compete in Europe in the best leagues (Premier, Bundesliga, La Liga). The competition at that level is light years above what MLS soccer presents. And you have to compete with the best to be the best - a truism. Jordan Morris had the chance to compete with the best, but he took the more comfortable route of "local hero in MLS." He's making a fine living and that was certainly his choice. But until more kids do what Pulisic and Wood are doing - compete in Europe in top leagues - the USMNT will never be the competitive force it should be in soccer.
4. The "silver lining" (and that's not really the right phrase) is what Outsider notes: at least we won't be indirectly supporting corrupt Russian regime with U.S. tourist dollars - though when it comes to FIFA events, there doesn't appear to be a way to compete without advancing corruption. More generally, all those nations that are glad the U.S. lost and is out of the WC, well . . . they can enjoy their U.S.-less competition (including less US media coverage buzz, less US tourist dollars supporting the events that their beloved teams are competing in, etc.).
P.S. How old is the U.S. goalie, anyway?
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - ColoradoTree - 10-11-2017
I doubt there will ever be so much interest in a Gold Cup roster as there will be for the 2019 tournament. Too many familiar faces and fans will rightfully question whether U.S. Soccer learned anything from this qualifying debacle. I'm assuming 2018 will give us some "farewell friendlies" to give folks like Tim Howard, Brad Guzan, Clint Dempsey, and others (maybe Michael Bradley?) a proper send-off. Those rosters will be a mix of the current veterans and some younger players that we'll start getting ready for 2022, but I'd expect to see a pretty pronounced shift in roster makeup starting in 2019 as the US gears up for the Gold Cup. Of the 23 players on the most recent roster, I wouldn't be surprised if we've seen the last competitive cap from 15-16 of them. The goalkeepers are all old, the defenders (other than Yedlin) either too old or not good enough to warrant a continued roster spot, and the same thing with many of the midfielders and forwards.Â
Almost certainly done (in terms of World Cup Qualifying and Gold Cup matches): Howard, Rimando, Gonzalez, Besler, Beasley, Ream, Zusi, McCarty, Feilhaber, Dempsey, and Wondolowski
Maybe done: Guzan, Bradley, Villafana, and Bedoya.Â
If we're going to go all in and try to build the best possible 2022 World Cup roster, then our younger players need to be bled now and have a couple years' worth of seasoning before 2022 qualifying gets heated in late 2020. And if we're going to go young, I'd like to see some of those players feature in the Olympic qualifying tournament for 2020. (If we're not going to go young, then we've learned nothing, because our current roster is laden with players in their 30s that are highly unlikely to get much better over the next four years.)
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - ColoradoTree - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 12:21 PM)teejers1 link Wrote:P.S. How old is the U.S. goalie, anyway?
Tim Howard is 38, and would have been 39 at next summer's World Cup. Because of his decline in form, I wouldn't be surprised if he fully retired from soccer at the end of the current MLS season, and we don't get to see him in one last match for the US. Brad Guzan is the #2 (more like #1A the past year, and sometimes the #1), and is 33, but couldn't stay in the first team at Aston Villa (nor at Middlesbrough) and is now at Atlanta, so he might continue on the roster for a while, but the competition had better be open. The #3, Nick Rimando, is also 38, so there's no point in continuing to call him up to the roster.Â
The bright side: we've got two very good young keepers waiting in the wings: Jesse Gonzalez, 22, from FC Dallas and Bill Hamid, 26, from DC United. I'm excited to see what those guys can do with more opportunities.Â
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - BostonCard - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 12:21 PM)teejers1 link Wrote:2. The TnT loss was perfectly encapsulated by EMPTY stadium. Nobody on the island gave a $hit about the game, and the U.S. still lost. Nice going.
It's even worse; the empty stadium was by design. The Trinidadian authorities moved the game from Port-au-Prince to a site 45 minutes away because they were so afraid of an embarrassing chorus of boos. They wanted no one to witness what they expected to be a disaster.
BC
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - SamuelMcF - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 12:45 PM)ColoradoTree link Wrote:The bright side: we've got two very good young keepers waiting in the wings: Jesse Gonzalez, 22, from FC Dallas and Bill Hamid, 26, from DC United. I'm excited to see what those guys can do with more opportunities.Â
What about the young keeper who plays against European (read: actual) competition? Ethan Horvath is 22 and starts for Belgian First Division side Club Brugge, which is a perennial Champions/Europa League-caliber team. He's also from Highlands Ranch, CO - I feel like someone we know played his high school ball there... ;)
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - ColoradoTree - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 01:06 PM)SamuelMcF link Wrote:[quote author=ColoradoTree link=topic=17658.msg205784#msg205784 date=1507751118]
The bright side: we've got two very good young keepers waiting in the wings: Jesse Gonzalez, 22, from FC Dallas and Bill Hamid, 26, from DC United. I'm excited to see what those guys can do with more opportunities.Â
What about the young keeper who plays against European (read: actual) competition? Ethan Horvath is 22 and starts for Belgian First Division side Club Brugge, which is a perennial Champions/Europa League-caliber team. He's also from Highlands Ranch, CO - I feel like someone we know played his high school ball there... ;)
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For sure! Horvath is another guy that can and should get rotated into the mix at keeper to see if he rises to the occasion. I didn't mention him because it's been a little while since he's been called into camp, though his omission from the Gold Cup roster shouldn't matter since that was a team comprised of North American-based players.Â
That said, I take issue with the suggestion that the Belgian league is better than MLS. The competition in the league has generally improved year over year, and given how many CONCACAF internationals play their club soccer in MLS, I wouldn't put the Belgian First Division over it. I don't know that there are good league rankings across confederations, but within UEFA, Belgium has been the 8th or 9th best league by country coefficient the last few years. If an American is good enough to start in the Premier League, the Bundesliga, Serie A, or La Liga, then by all means, they should go there vs. playing in MLS. Same goes for France in Ligue 1. But after that, I'm not sure it's so obviously worth it. Club Brugge is a good club, to be sure, but that league is dominated by Brugge and Anderlecht, and there's a big dropoff from them to the bottom of the table. Now, to be fair, most European leagues are top-heavy, whereas central control by MLS ensures a greater degree of parity, so I'd argue that Gonzalez gets better tests week-in and week-out in Dallas than Horvath does in Brugge. (A caveat: a good performance at Brugge might lead a better team to
I'm certainly no MLS apologist, as I tended to agree with Klinsmann that our better players should be playing in Europe, and I'm disappointed that Morris chose Seattle over Werder Bremen. I sure hope that Morris will take the opportunity to move to a top European league if the opportunity presents itself again. But not all European leagues are created equally, and the MLS has gotten better.Â
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - washingtonismoney - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 02:04 PM)ColoradoTree link Wrote:I'm certainly no MLS apologist, as I tended to agree with Klinsmann that our better players should be playing in Europe, and I'm disappointed that Morris chose Seattle over Werder Bremen. I sure hope that Morris will take the opportunity to move to a top European league if the opportunity presents itself again. But not all European leagues are created equally, and the MLS has gotten better.
Meh, Klinsmann's rhetoric in this area was... more rhetoric than action. He took tons of MLS guys, even when he had European options. I don't know whether that affected player behavior (when choosing between European-based teams versus MLS ones), but it's plausible it did. The main point to keep in mind here is that Klinsmann liked to talk about things, and got an inordinate amount of credit for saying things people already believed anyway. Then he didn't follow through.
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - Farm93 - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 11:19 AM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:[quote author=Farm93 link=topic=17658.msg205757#msg205757 date=1507745023]
Those broadcasting choices say a lot about USA Soccer and the popularity of non-USMNT soccer here in the USA.
No, I'm trying to tell you that that's not how it works. The home team owns the broadcast rights for both teams. It sold the rights to BeIn Sports. ESPN would've loved to have the game; it went all out on the Panama game and then covered the loss extensively. I'm sure Fox would've loved it too. But BeIn Sports -- a network owned by wealthy Qataris -- is trying to establish itself and paid way over the odds for the rights to the U.S.'s away games.
[/quote]
Right still got it. If the English broadcast rights were valuable some major network would have found more money than BeIn Sports didn't happen because that is the state of soccer in the USA.
Doesn't matter..Here is how I will explain it.
Fox spent $400 million for the English language broadcast rights in the USA to the 2018 & 2022 World Cups.
Comcast spent $600 million for the Spanish language broadcast rights in the USA to the 2018 & 2022 World Cups.
THAT, circling back to my theme, also says all you need to know about USA Soccer and soccer in the USA.
Soccer is a lovely sport for kids and adults to play, but for the USMNT to really become a real World Cup force there needs to be enough domestic interest and passion for the English language broadcast rights to be much more valuable than the Spanish language rights. Right now, that's not the case and that says a lot about soccer in the USA.
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - washingtonismoney - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 03:47 PM)Farm93 link Wrote:Doesn't matter..Here is how I will explain it.
No, once again, you still don't get it. First of all, Spanish-language rights to USMNT games draw quite well, and Comcast's expenditure is in large part spending on the U.S. team's historical appeal among Latino fans. (It's incorrect to assume that Spanish-speakers somehow don't care about U.S. games; or that somehow the economic returns from Spanish-language broadcasts don't flow to the U.S. fiefdoms. They do. So perhaps you have a more boutique point to make.
Second, you aren't reading what I'm writing. The away games were available because BeIn paid a hellacious amount of money -- which demonstrates *the cachet* of U.S. games. Of course the big networks would've enjoyed to have those games, as they frequently get excellent ratings for U.S. national team games. But it was not economical for the away games.
That's possible because Qatari investors care as much about soft power as actual economic return. If you were familiar with soccer, you'd know that Qatari investors have frequently paid astronomical sums for soccer-related assets simply as a way of acquiring trophy financial assets.
Re: Sad day for the USMNT - DC 86 - 10-11-2017
(10-11-2017, 02:04 PM)ColoradoTree link Wrote:That said, I take issue with the suggestion that the Belgian league is better than MLS. The competition in the league has generally improved year over year, and given how many CONCACAF internationals play their club soccer in MLS, I wouldn't put the Belgian First Division over it.
I agree that MLS is at least comparable to Belgium top to bottom, however with regard to Horvath it's worth noting that Brugge perennially qualifies for the European Cup competitions, so Horvath has played in (and will play in) high pressure matches against strong competition that are not available to MLS players. With Brugge (and previously at Molde) thus far he has started seven Champions League matches and ten Europa League matches (including knockout round games), which is a whole different level of pressure than MLS.