I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - Printable Version
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Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - stupac2 - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 08:32 AM)Trevmiesterj link Wrote:I agree that it's hard to blame the offense when they are in a position to win and nearly do. What irked me was the repeated Love runs up the middle on first down and then, a telegraphed second down pass. Despite TCU dominating the second half, a win could have been achieved by opening up the playbook IMHO.
Letting Costello do a few read options would have kept the defense honest - I recall one of the commentators saying much the same thing.
Opening up the playbook like throwing to Scarlett when we haven't done that all year? Or were you thinking some of TCU's oh-so-successful trick plays?
As for Costello not keeping, it would be pretty strange for the coaches to call a read option but say "don't read the DE, just hand it off." That's... not the point of calling the read option. It could be happening, sure, but I don't think our coaches are idiots. My guess is that Costello is just not very good at making the read and so rarely keeps. He has, though, I remember one against USC.
To me the offense in the second half just demonstrated that Costello is a first-year starter, whose practice time as the #1 guy was limited to a few weeks in the season. He missed some plays that an experienced guy makes. He made some bad throws that he's fully capable of making. He read some coverages wrong. He didn't really know what to do against TCU's blitzes. Now, could our coaches just be failing to teach him this stuff? Again, I suppose it's possible that we've been one of the best teams in the country over the past 7 years despite our coaches not knowing how to teach fundamental football, but it strikes me as improbable. Most likely we're just seeing a guy playing a really good defense in his 7th start of his career making the mistakes you expect a guy to make in that situation.
If I were going to have a gripe with our gameplan it would be running our jumbo packages on standard downs, which we did a few times early in the game. It didn't work at all and I'm not sure why the coaching staff thought it would (I can only assume they saw something on film, because, again, they're not idiots). But they realized that it wasn't working and stopped doing it and we scored a bunch despite Costello's limitations. I find it hard to pin this on them.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - stupac2 - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 08:32 AM)Trevmiesterj link Wrote:I agree that it's hard to blame the offense when they are in a position to win and nearly do. What irked me was the repeated Love runs up the middle on first down and then, a telegraphed second down pass. Despite TCU dominating the second half, a win could have been achieved by opening up the playbook IMHO.
Letting Costello do a few read options would have kept the defense honest - I recall one of the commentators saying much the same thing.
Opening up the playbook like throwing to Scarlett when we haven't done that all year? Or were you thinking some of TCU's oh-so-successful trick plays?
As for Costello not keeping, it would be pretty strange for the coaches to call a read option but say "don't read the DE, just hand it off." That's... not the point of calling the read option. It could be happening, sure, but I don't think our coaches are idiots. My guess is that Costello is just not very good at making the read and so rarely keeps. He has, though, I remember one against USC.
To me the offense in the second half just demonstrated that Costello is a first-year starter, whose practice time as the #1 guy was limited to a few weeks in the season. He missed some plays that an experienced guy makes. He made some bad throws that he's fully capable of making. He read some coverages wrong. He didn't really know what to do against TCU's blitzes. Now, could our coaches just be failing to teach him this stuff? Again, I suppose it's possible that we've been one of the best teams in the country over the past 7 years despite our coaches not knowing how to teach fundamental football, but it strikes me as improbable. Most likely we're just seeing a guy playing a really good defense in his 7th start of his career making the mistakes you expect a guy to make in that situation.
If I were going to have a gripe with our gameplan it would be running our jumbo packages on standard downs, which we did a few times early in the game. It didn't work at all and I'm not sure why the coaching staff thought it would (I can only assume they saw something on film, because, again, they're not idiots). But they realized that it wasn't working and stopped doing it and we scored a bunch despite Costello's limitations. I find it hard to pin this on them.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - Goose - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 07:44 AM)donkey687 link Wrote:I don't blame Shaw for the delay of game or false start or INT. That is mostly on Costello. Costello looked like a redhshirt frosh that hasn't won much outside of Stanford Stadium. He will be better next year.I do. It was clear that the crowd noise was messing Costello up. He coundn't check off, and the line was confused. As we approached the first DOG, Shaw should have called a TO and calmed everybody down, reminded them of the plan for crowd noise (which I assume they had), and gone to a silent count if necessary. If none of that was available, he should have told them to forget about checking off, run the called play on first sound, tell KJ to yell, and get on with it. As it was, KJ got two snaps he wasn't expecting. With that level of disorganization, we had no shot. KJ may have ben rattled, but that wasn't the basic problem.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - Goose - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 07:44 AM)donkey687 link Wrote:I don't blame Shaw for the delay of game or false start or INT. That is mostly on Costello. Costello looked like a redhshirt frosh that hasn't won much outside of Stanford Stadium. He will be better next year.I do. It was clear that the crowd noise was messing Costello up. He coundn't check off, and the line was confused. As we approached the first DOG, Shaw should have called a TO and calmed everybody down, reminded them of the plan for crowd noise (which I assume they had), and gone to a silent count if necessary. If none of that was available, he should have told them to forget about checking off, run the called play on first sound, tell KJ to yell, and get on with it. As it was, KJ got two snaps he wasn't expecting. With that level of disorganization, we had no shot. KJ may have ben rattled, but that wasn't the basic problem.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - cardcrimson - 12-29-2017
Though we had the occasional head scratching call, the offense did markedly better and finally threw to a back. With great success I might add. Can Love not catch? IIRC he was fine in his first couple of years.
Blaming a punter for kicking a 60 plus yard punt. Please. There was at least one block in the back, but admitted, the defender was out of position already.
We have faced fast offenses for years. Our scheme offset that. Last night, we didn't seem to use the scheme. We rushed 3 or 4 and never pressured the QB. He had all day and eventually someone got open. When they didn't, he ran. We never adjusted or tried anything different. The definition of insanity. . . .
The long TD pass made the one poor defender made him look like the slowest DB in the country. Completely unprepared for a fly pattern from inside the 5. Safety was out of position as well.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - cardcrimson - 12-29-2017
Though we had the occasional head scratching call, the offense did markedly better and finally threw to a back. With great success I might add. Can Love not catch? IIRC he was fine in his first couple of years.
Blaming a punter for kicking a 60 plus yard punt. Please. There was at least one block in the back, but admitted, the defender was out of position already.
We have faced fast offenses for years. Our scheme offset that. Last night, we didn't seem to use the scheme. We rushed 3 or 4 and never pressured the QB. He had all day and eventually someone got open. When they didn't, he ran. We never adjusted or tried anything different. The definition of insanity. . . .
The long TD pass made the one poor defender made him look like the slowest DB in the country. Completely unprepared for a fly pattern from inside the 5. Safety was out of position as well.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - Goose - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 10:05 AM)cardcrimson link Wrote:The long TD pass made the one poor defender made him look like the slowest DB in the country. Completely unprepared for a fly pattern from inside the 5. Safety was out of position as well.The corner (I think it was Meeks) thought he had help over the top. He didn't turn and run with the receiver, but rather maintained his back-pedal. I don't think he would do that if it were straight man. The Safety was just real late. If Reid were out there, it might have been a big gain, but not a TD. But he wasn't.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - Goose - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 10:05 AM)cardcrimson link Wrote:The long TD pass made the one poor defender made him look like the slowest DB in the country. Completely unprepared for a fly pattern from inside the 5. Safety was out of position as well.The corner (I think it was Meeks) thought he had help over the top. He didn't turn and run with the receiver, but rather maintained his back-pedal. I don't think he would do that if it were straight man. The Safety was just real late. If Reid were out there, it might have been a big gain, but not a TD. But he wasn't.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - helix - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 10:19 AM)Goose link Wrote:[quote author=cardcrimson link=topic=18450.msg219718#msg219718 date=1514567152]The corner (I think it was Meeks) thought he had help over the top. He didn't turn and run with the receiver, but rather maintained his back-pedal. I don't think he would do that if it were straight man. The Safety was just real late. If Reid were out there, it might have been a big gain, but not a TD. But he wasn't.
The long TD pass made the one poor defender made him look like the slowest DB in the country. Completely unprepared for a fly pattern from inside the 5. Safety was out of position as well.
[/quote]
Murphy was the DB on the long TD.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - helix - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 10:19 AM)Goose link Wrote:[quote author=cardcrimson link=topic=18450.msg219718#msg219718 date=1514567152]The corner (I think it was Meeks) thought he had help over the top. He didn't turn and run with the receiver, but rather maintained his back-pedal. I don't think he would do that if it were straight man. The Safety was just real late. If Reid were out there, it might have been a big gain, but not a TD. But he wasn't.
The long TD pass made the one poor defender made him look like the slowest DB in the country. Completely unprepared for a fly pattern from inside the 5. Safety was out of position as well.
[/quote]
Murphy was the DB on the long TD.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - Goose - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 10:33 AM)helix link Wrote:[quote author=Goose link=topic=18450.msg219720#msg219720 date=1514567991]The corner (I think it was Meeks) thought he had help over the top. He didn't turn and run with the receiver, but rather maintained his back-pedal. I don't think he would do that if it were straight man. The Safety was just real late. If Reid were out there, it might have been a big gain, but not a TD. But he wasn't.
[quote author=cardcrimson link=topic=18450.msg219718#msg219718 date=1514567152]
The long TD pass made the one poor defender made him look like the slowest DB in the country. Completely unprepared for a fly pattern from inside the 5. Safety was out of position as well.
[/quote]
Murphy was the DB on the long TD.
[/quote]
Thanks. I should have looked at a replay :).
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - Goose - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 10:33 AM)helix link Wrote:[quote author=Goose link=topic=18450.msg219720#msg219720 date=1514567991]The corner (I think it was Meeks) thought he had help over the top. He didn't turn and run with the receiver, but rather maintained his back-pedal. I don't think he would do that if it were straight man. The Safety was just real late. If Reid were out there, it might have been a big gain, but not a TD. But he wasn't.
[quote author=cardcrimson link=topic=18450.msg219718#msg219718 date=1514567152]
The long TD pass made the one poor defender made him look like the slowest DB in the country. Completely unprepared for a fly pattern from inside the 5. Safety was out of position as well.
[/quote]
Murphy was the DB on the long TD.
[/quote]
Thanks. I should have looked at a replay :).
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - phxfan - 12-29-2017
[/quote]
As for Costello not keeping, it would be pretty strange for the coaches to call a read option but say "don't read the DE, just hand it off." That's... not the point of calling the read option. It could be happening, sure, but I don't think our coaches are idiots.
To me the offense in the second half just demonstrated that Costello is a first-year starter, whose practice time as the #1 guy as limited to a few weeks in the season. He missed some plays that an experienced guy makes. He made some bad throws that he's fully capable of making. He read some coverages wrong. He didn't really know what to do against TCU's blitzes. Now, could our coaches just be failing to teach him this stuff? Again, I suppose it's possible that we've been one of the best teams in the country over the past 7 years despite our coaches not knowing how to teach fundamental football, but it strikes me as improbable. Most likely we're just seeing a guy playing a really good defense in his 7th start of his career making the mistakes you expect a guy to make in that situation.
If I were going to have a gripe with our gameplan it would be running our jumbo packages on standard downs, which we did a few times early in the game. It didn't work at all and I'm not sure why the coaching staff thought it would (I can only assume they saw something on film, because, again, they're not idiots). But they realized that it wasn't working and stopped doing it and we scored a bunch despite Costello's limitations. I find it hard to pin this on them.
[/quote]
How many of those seven years of success had Andrew Luck or Kevin Hogan at the helm? Those were two QBs with innate abilities to compete and win and that Shaw was unable to enhance or improve upon. His record with any other QB is mediocre at best,
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - phxfan - 12-29-2017
[/quote]
As for Costello not keeping, it would be pretty strange for the coaches to call a read option but say "don't read the DE, just hand it off." That's... not the point of calling the read option. It could be happening, sure, but I don't think our coaches are idiots.
To me the offense in the second half just demonstrated that Costello is a first-year starter, whose practice time as the #1 guy as limited to a few weeks in the season. He missed some plays that an experienced guy makes. He made some bad throws that he's fully capable of making. He read some coverages wrong. He didn't really know what to do against TCU's blitzes. Now, could our coaches just be failing to teach him this stuff? Again, I suppose it's possible that we've been one of the best teams in the country over the past 7 years despite our coaches not knowing how to teach fundamental football, but it strikes me as improbable. Most likely we're just seeing a guy playing a really good defense in his 7th start of his career making the mistakes you expect a guy to make in that situation.
If I were going to have a gripe with our gameplan it would be running our jumbo packages on standard downs, which we did a few times early in the game. It didn't work at all and I'm not sure why the coaching staff thought it would (I can only assume they saw something on film, because, again, they're not idiots). But they realized that it wasn't working and stopped doing it and we scored a bunch despite Costello's limitations. I find it hard to pin this on them.
[/quote]
How many of those seven years of success had Andrew Luck or Kevin Hogan at the helm? Those were two QBs with innate abilities to compete and win and that Shaw was unable to enhance or improve upon. His record with any other QB is mediocre at best,
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - stupac2 - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 12:32 PM)phxfan link Wrote:How many of those seven years of success had Andrew Luck or Kevin Hogan at the helm? Those were two QBs with innate abilities to compete and win and that Shaw was unable to enhance or improve upon. His record with any other QB is mediocre at best,
Shaw's record with QBs besides Luck and Hogan is 6-2 (2012), 10-3 (2016), and 9-5 (2017). If you think a 71% winning percentage is "mediocre at best", well, more power to you but I think that's obviously wrong.
It's also kind of odd to me to give Shaw no credit at all for Hogan. First, he recruited the guy. Second, Hogan clearly did improve over his tenure, the jump from 2012 to 2013 was noticeable (and has been commented upon in regards to "if Costello makes a similar jump he'll be approaching Luck's level" a few times). On a related note, before the Pac-12 CG people thought the same thing about Costello. It's kind of rich to be writing him off now.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - stupac2 - 12-29-2017
(12-29-2017, 12:32 PM)phxfan link Wrote:How many of those seven years of success had Andrew Luck or Kevin Hogan at the helm? Those were two QBs with innate abilities to compete and win and that Shaw was unable to enhance or improve upon. His record with any other QB is mediocre at best,
Shaw's record with QBs besides Luck and Hogan is 6-2 (2012), 10-3 (2016), and 9-5 (2017). If you think a 71% winning percentage is "mediocre at best", well, more power to you but I think that's obviously wrong.
It's also kind of odd to me to give Shaw no credit at all for Hogan. First, he recruited the guy. Second, Hogan clearly did improve over his tenure, the jump from 2012 to 2013 was noticeable (and has been commented upon in regards to "if Costello makes a similar jump he'll be approaching Luck's level" a few times). On a related note, before the Pac-12 CG people thought the same thing about Costello. It's kind of rich to be writing him off now.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - winflop - 12-29-2017
Our offense put up 37 on an elite defense in what was basically a road game atmosphere. Absolutely nothing they should hang their heads about.
Defense was simply decimated by injuries with multiple starters already on the sideline at kickoff. Lost at least 3 players in Q2-Q3 (Reid, Buncom, Robinson) and it showed down the stretch.
This isn't on any players or coaches. It was just bad luck of injuries. Those 3 guys play the whole game, we win.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - winflop - 12-29-2017
Our offense put up 37 on an elite defense in what was basically a road game atmosphere. Absolutely nothing they should hang their heads about.
Defense was simply decimated by injuries with multiple starters already on the sideline at kickoff. Lost at least 3 players in Q2-Q3 (Reid, Buncom, Robinson) and it showed down the stretch.
This isn't on any players or coaches. It was just bad luck of injuries. Those 3 guys play the whole game, we win.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - needle - 12-29-2017
When the offense has a chance to go down the field to win the game on the final drive and doesn't gain a yard (net), the criticism is warranted. Last night was worse than Michigan State--but not having Love is an excuse.
Re: I feel Shaw bungled the final 1/3 of the game - needle - 12-29-2017
When the offense has a chance to go down the field to win the game on the final drive and doesn't gain a yard (net), the criticism is warranted. Last night was worse than Michigan State--but not having Love is an excuse.