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What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - Printable Version

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RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - 81alum - 09-30-2018

(09-30-2018, 08:38 AM)winflop Wrote:  6. I still see a lot of chatter about just needing to win at UW. People are overlooking the ASU game.
WSU could be a serious problem too.  Their  QB looked every bit as good as Ian Book. 

If our two lines do not play better we could have issues in 3 or 4 of our remaining games.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - Goose - 09-30-2018

(09-29-2018, 10:02 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote:  It’s still pretty early in the season. So there are still questions about how much was circumstance, how much is us, how much is them. But here’s what the game tells me:
#1) Our offensive line got beat bad.  I think there have been enough data points to say that something is definitely amiss. My biggest fear is that it was Bloomgren’s departure. We have incredible talent on the oline. We have multiple years of top recruits. Regardless of how good ND might be, top talent shouldn’t get beat like this.
I would alter the above to insert "and regardless of who the coach may be". I have no opinion on what effect Bloomgren's departure has had on the line. I have no objective data or even opinion's from well-placed others (I don't count Tom FitzGerald) to support that theory.  I can say that they had similar problems (although not quite as bad) last year (2017) and the year before (2016). We haven't had a line that could reliably make holes for the last three years. The OL had its moments in 2016, but never was really "dominant". In 2017, look at the OSU game. OSU wasn't good, and we couldn't move them.
We have relied on the fact that Love only needed a crease. We didn't get lots of creases last year, but when we did, Love made them count. This year, we are getting even fewer, because the defense knows we aren't going to blow them off the line and dares us to pass. That can work, but we have a small error budget there.
It is also instructive to look at Cal vs. Oregon last night. Cal's OL, which was supposed to be a strength this year, hasn't really performed as well as expected. However, the made more holes last night in a game Cal lost than we did in the game we won. Not apples and apples, but still indicative of our problem. Our line just isn't physical enough to do what it is trying to do. Injuries may explain A.T. Hall having problems last night, but it doesn't explain no push anywhere else. We don't win the one-on-one battles
As has been repeatedly pointed out, these guys are highly ranked recruits, and they are certainly big enough to get the job done. In previous years, the TWU just went out there and pushed the other team back. Been a while since we have done that. There is our problem. I don't know what the solution is, but our offensive philosophy is based on doing exactly that. When we can't do that, things get ugly fast.

Quote:#4) I still think Stanford is a very good team, how good? We’ll learn a lot with Utah and ASU. I doubt anyone on the schedule can stop Stanford’s offense the way ND did.  Stanford is still in control of its destiny to aim for a conference championship and the Rose Bowl.
True. In order to do that, we will need to beat UW on the road. To do that, the OL has to improve significantly. It is that simple. I think UW is not actually a very good team, as their pass offense hasn't been great against a fair to good defense. However, if our OL doesn't become much more effective, the UW limitations will not be enough for us to beat them.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - Austroturf - 09-30-2018

(09-30-2018, 08:38 AM)winflop Wrote:  Takeaways from last night:
1. ShawVita needs to recognize this team for what it is not what he hopes it is. This team is inacapable of being run-first and winning. The OL can't run block - we've now seen it for FIVE STINKING WEEKS. This doesn't mean abandon the run. But it does mean we need to start throwing the ball on first down more often and earlier in the game
2. ShawVita needs to call more deception plays - not trick plays. Just pass out of run formations & vice versa. Formations continue to be way too predictable
3. Our OL ain't what it used to be. Part coaching (new OL coach), part talent, part injury. I don't think Little is healthy. Not sure about Hall but he's had two awful games in a row. LG continues to be a serious problem.
4. Our DL cannot generate pressure on its own. We have to rush at least 4 on every single play unless it's 3rd & a mile
5. Notre Dame is an elite team with Book at QB. The difference between him and Wimbush could not be more stark. He was the difference last night.
6. I still see a lot of chatter about just needing to win at UW. People are overlooking the ASU game.
In our remaining 7 games, I see only two clear Ws: OSU and UCLA. We will have five tough showdowns with Utah, ASU, UW, WSU and UCB.  No gimmes, especially if Love is out for a while.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - SF_Cardinal_Fan - 09-30-2018

OL play is disappointing.
KJ's  decision making, first against UC Davis and last night against Notre Dame, was questionable. Some games KJ performs great and others he looks over matched for the position. On the positive side, it does appear that he has a consistently good attitude, great passion for the game, team leadership skills etc...

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - Goose - 09-30-2018

(09-30-2018, 09:10 AM)SF_Cardinal_Fan Wrote:  OL play is disappointing.
KJ's  decision making, first against UC Davis and last night against Notre Dame, was questionable. Some games KJ performs great and others he looks over matched for the position. On the positive side, it does appear that he has a consistently good attitude, great passion for the game, team leadership skills etc...
One's decision making tends to degrade when one is behind and are getting beat up. It is easy to run the through the progression when you have all day, not so easy when you are wearing a defensive lineman. This is true of all QBs, even the great ones. Costello threw a few ill-advised passes last night, one into triple coverage. Even if he doesn't do that, we don't win.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - SF_Cardinal_Fan - 09-30-2018

(09-30-2018, 09:17 AM)Goose Wrote:  
(09-30-2018, 09:10 AM)SF_Cardinal_Fan Wrote:  OL play is disappointing.
KJ's  decision making, first against UC Davis and last night against Notre Dame, was questionable. Some games KJ performs great and others he looks over matched for the position. On the positive side, it does appear that he has a consistently good attitude, great passion for the game, team leadership skills etc...
One's decision making tends to degrade when one is behind and are getting beat up. It is easy to run the through the progression when you have all day, not so easy when you are wearing a defensive lineman. This is true of all QBs, even the great ones. Costello threw a few ill-advised passes last night, one into triple coverage. Even if he doesn't do that, we don't win.


Yes, I read what you wrote and mostly agree.
However, I also remember a year ago when Stanford's OL was being criticized. Once Costello replaced Chryst Stanford's OL play appeared to improve.
I'm not suggesting that Stanford should now make a QB change. Unlike Chryst's career at Stanford,  KJ has played some sensational games. Hopefully this week against Utah Stanford bounces back, KJ and Stanford play great, win the game etc...

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - Velodoc - 09-30-2018

I was there. End zone seat. Great view of field and big screen. Lone cardinal in sea of blue. First time there in dry weather—great campus and great fans. 

Irish are legit. We have issues as noted above. Hopefully, corrections will be made and, as predictable, some unpredicted Pac-12 results will result in north title. Hopefully.  Hopefully.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - Goose - 09-30-2018

(09-30-2018, 10:34 AM)SF_Cardinal_Fan Wrote:  However, I also remember a year ago when Stanford's OL was being criticized. Once Costello replaced Chryst Stanford's OL play appeared to improve.
I'm not suggesting that Stanford should now make a QB change. Unlike Chryst's career at Stanford,  KJ has played some sensational games. Hopefully this week against Utah Stanford bounces back, KJ and Stanford play great, win the game etc...
This is a good point. I think there are two things in play here. First, I do think the OL played better after the OSU game. Possibly not a lot better, but better. Second, and more importantly IMHO, Costello's errors are errors of commission, not omission. He threw into coverage, probably out of desperation. Chryst tended to hold the ball and get sacked, or throw it into the ground. Also, so far, KJ has hit what was there most of the time. Chryst didn't do that, which makes a big difference in production.
I am with the crowd that says KJ needs to run the ball on the read option when it is called for. If he isn't ever going to run, no point in throwing in the fake if it holds nobody. Second, and more importantly, he needs to run from the pocket when it is available and the receivers are covered. Against UCLA and ASU last year he did that. Haven't seen it since. When we found out about the hip injury, it made sense that he hadn't been running. Now that is fixed, in theory, but he still isn't running at all. Maybe he has been so instructed. I certainly don't know.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - muiron - 09-30-2018

I am with the crowd that says KJ needs to run the ball on the read option when it is called for. If he isn't ever going to run, no point in throwing in the fake if it holds nobody. Second, and more importantly, he needs to run from the pocket when it is available and the receivers are covered. Against UCLA and ASU last year he did that. Haven't seen it since. When we found out about the hip injury, it made sense that he hadn't been running. Now that is fixed, in theory, but he still isn't running at all. Maybe he has been so instructed. I certainly don't know.
[/quote]

Well, Mills wasn't dressed so Richardson (?), the walk-on, was the backup QB. Some caution was advisable.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - Goose - 09-30-2018

(09-30-2018, 12:03 PM)muiron Wrote:  Well, Mills wasn't dressed so Richardson (?), the walk-on, was the backup QB. Some caution was advisable.
True, some caution was required. However, if you are going to get sacked, you might as well try and run it, because you will get hit either way. Also, if you aren't going to let the QB run it, the read option does nothing good and slows down the actual hand-off.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - GK3 - 09-30-2018

(09-30-2018, 09:10 AM)SF_Cardinal_Fan Wrote:  OL play is disappointing.
KJ's  decision making, first against UC Davis and last night against Notre Dame, was questionable. Some games KJ performs great and others he looks over matched for the position. On the positive side, it does appear that he has a consistently good attitude, great passion for the game, team leadership skills etc...

I think part of KJ's decision making issue is due to less time to through the ball and a ND defense who could cover our big guys very effectively, giving no KJ no easy throws.  There were not a lot of open guys for him to throw to.  I think we should have gone with St. Brown far more during the game.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - ADPinWDC - 09-30-2018

(09-30-2018, 08:38 AM)winflop Wrote:  Takeaways from last night:
1. ShawVita needs to recognize this team for what it is not what he hopes it is. This team is inacapable of being run-first and winning. The OL can't run block - we've now seen it for FIVE STINKING WEEKS. This doesn't mean abandon the run. But it does mean we need to start throwing the ball on first down more often and earlier in the game
2. ShawVita needs to call more deception plays - not trick plays. Just pass out of run formations & vice versa. Formations continue to be way too predictable
3. Our OL ain't what it used to be. Part coaching (new OL coach), part talent, part injury. I don't think Little is healthy. Not sure about Hall but he's had two awful games in a row. LG continues to be a serious problem.
4. Our DL cannot generate pressure on its own. We have to rush at least 4 on every single play unless it's 3rd & a mile
5. Notre Dame is an elite team with Book at QB. The difference between him and Wimbush could not be more stark. He was the difference last night.
6. I still see a lot of chatter about just needing to win at UW. People are overlooking the ASU game.

Excellent summary.  NDAM might be a Top 5 team WITH BOOK (not Wimbush).  Book scrambles like Herbert. 
And NDAM is big enough up front to win the rest of their games.  Tillery is 
So, yes -- we CANNOT rush 3, EVER.  We need to blitz a 4th guy from somewhere. 

POST THIS IN THE LOCKER ROOM -- Tillery named National Defensive Player of the Week... On our O-Line.
www.wndu.com/content/news/Notre-Dame-defensive-tackle-Jerry-Tillery-named-this-weeks-National-FBS-Defensive-Player-of-the-Week--494732021.html

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - Hulk01 - 10-01-2018

Stanford on first down vs. Notre Dame (non-goal line plays)
Runs: 8 plays, 71 yards, one touchdown; one play for zero or negative yards
Passes: 11 plays, 45 yards, one interception; six plays for zero or negative yards

Msybe we should run more on first downs.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - Goose - 10-01-2018

(09-30-2018, 10:29 PM)ADPinWDC Wrote:  So, yes -- we CANNOT rush 3, EVER.  We need to blitz a 4th guy from somewhere.
I can't agree with this. As was shown against Oregon in the overtime sequence, we need to vary our pass rush approach. It produces uncertainty and bad reads on the part of the offense, at least some of the time. While I do agree that rushing at least four should be our most common approach, occasionally dropping an extra man into coverage should not be precluded. That guy is often the linebacker that the QB doesn't see (because he is not expected to be there) that gets an INT. We are just not good enough up front to eliminate anything from our approach.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - Renaissance Man - 10-01-2018

My biggest issue right now is not run/pass predictability, or even stubborn play-calling, it is being able to recognize exactly what we are doing pre-snap.  I am able to see what we are running on any given play, based on formation and alignment on almost 100% of the plays--this is on TV and in the stadium.  Two examples from Saturday:

When we line up strong left, with the left side of the OL right on the line of scrimmage, the right side of the OL staggered back from the line of scrimmage and Love behind, and to the right of Costello, we are going to pull the right side of the line and give the ball to Love trying to come back to the left.

We ran play-action out of the same formation in the second half, but the right side of the line scooted up a little bit, and the left side cheated back a little bit, and I was able to say "play-action pass" well before the snap.  This may have been more effective if we had snapped the ball quickly and given the defense less recognition time, but we never snap the ball quickly.

If I can call out the play, in detail, before every snap, I am guessing the opponent can, as well, which makes the O-Line's job impossible.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - OL84 - 10-01-2018

(10-01-2018, 09:38 AM)Renaissance Man Wrote:  My biggest issue right now is not run/pass predictability, or even stubborn play-calling, it is being able to recognize exactly what we are doing pre-snap.  I am able to see what we are running on any given play, based on formation and alignment on almost 100% of the plays--this is on TV and in the stadium.  Two examples from Saturday:

When we line up strong left, with the left side of the OL right on the line of scrimmage, the right side of the OL staggered back from the line of scrimmage and Love behind, and to the right of Costello, we are going to pull the right side of the line and give the ball to Love trying to come back to the left.

We ran play-action out of the same formation in the second half, but the right side of the line scooted up a little bit, and the left side cheated back a little bit, and I was able to say "play-action pass" well before the snap.  This may have been more effective if we had snapped the ball quickly and given the defense less recognition time, but we never snap the ball quickly.

If I can call out the play, in detail, before every snap, I am guessing the opponent can, as well, which makes the O-Line's job impossible.

Yep.  The OL has performed below expectations, but their job has been made tougher by running against numbers and not making the D defend the field.
(09-29-2018, 11:50 PM)fullmetal Wrote:  Like Hulk, I don't really consider Bloomgren a positive influence on the OL (but I'm not willing to die on that hill).  I'm going to stick with the injury hypothesis, but who knows if that will ever be proven (would take a full return of the line and execution to their potential).

We can't just rush four players.  You have to trust your secondary and rush with five to get pressure.

Bloomgren's lines were better and surprised to the upside before he became OC.  Thereafter the development was noticeably lacking.  Carberry does not have the extra demands of being OC, but he also does not likely have much input into the offensive approach which called for running against numbers and playing on a small field.

RE: What does the Notre Dame Loss tell us about our team? - fullmetal - 10-04-2018

I'm not worried about Carberry's input into the run game.  I am worried that, under Carberry's tutelage, this entire line has seemed to have forgotten how to win the 1v1 battles on the line of scrimmage -- in the run-blocking game.  Injuries are a big deal, but surely not everyone's injured...right...?

Once again, paging Shannon Turley for injuries and more strength...