Harbaugh in trouble again - Printable Version
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RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - teejers1 - 11-29-2020
(11-29-2020, 10:37 AM)baymeadows3408 Wrote:(11-29-2020, 10:17 AM)BigJohn043 Wrote: I generally think people over estimate the importance of the head coaches and under estimate the importance of the assistants. At Stanford, one of the things Harbaugh did really well was continually bring in really high quality assistants many of who had substantial NFL experience. This was really important in our success and FWIW he put together a high quality staff at the Niners as well.
Look at the MI staff. The OC & DC are both long time college guys with no NFL experience and no apparent past relationship with JH. I think that is a big part of his problem.
As coaches get successful, some start to believe their press and think that they are the key to success. I think that is what has happened to JH and frankly to Shaw as well. JH has the problem that he is well known to be crazy and I am not sure really top people want to work with him anymore. Shaws problem is hubris and ego.
Compare those two with Saban. Saban continually loses assistants but reinvests in high quality guys.
There is a lesson here....
Yeah, I think Harbaugh had the right connections to bring in NFL-level assistants to Stanford. Retention was going to be a problem because I think a lot of them were using Stanford as a stopgap, but it became a moot point when Harbaugh left and took a lot of the assistants with him. I don't know enough about Shaw to comment on the quality of his network, but he hires a lot from within and I do think an infusion of new ideas would benefit the program.
Harbaugh basically coached from the viewpoint that his charges are there to devote 100% of their time to football . . . which of course, they are not (at any college). That wears on the players. Then he continually asked for more from his administrative superiors - bathroom is a small example . . . Michigan's trips abroad are bigger examples.
But he has no doubt who is in charge of his program; thus, he wants to go out and get the best coordinators he can. Didn't he look up top college defenses on the Internet once hired by Stanford and found this Fangio guy at Western Michigan (or wherever he was at the time)? Harbaugh didn't know the guy from Adam and didn't care what the guy's personality was, whether there was a risk of rocking the boat, or what have you because Harbs knows he is in charge. Shaw . . . not so much.
Harbs worked wonders at USD; he raised the dead at Stanford; and he won big in San Francisco. I would be surprised if the next coach at Michigan wins a much as Jim has there, but you can't continually lose to tOSU and be average against the other big boys in the Conference and expect to last too long. Jim has had a very respectable run at Michigan. But I'm sure things are fraying. It's only because football is more important to Michigan and Michigan Fan that this is an issue.
Things are frayed with the football program here, too - much more fundamentally than in Ann Arbor - and no one cares, including (evidently) the Athletic Director. Shaw was right place, right time . . . not much, if anything, beyond that. (But then again, he is far from alone in that category).
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - Maple Leaf - 11-29-2020
Fangio and Roman were both assistants with the Ravens and became available. Who is the Ravens head coach.....John Harbaugh.
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - Hank 91 - 11-29-2020
Aside from the current season's disaster, the biggest problem Harbaugh has had at Michigan is that he happened to arrive at a time when Ohio State is enjoying the best run of sustained excellence in their program's history. You could argue that he should've recruited away some Ohio kids and certainly kept some of the Michigan kids who got away, but as some have said above, the program has been solid. But he was hired to beat Ohio State and win national championships. This doesn't absolve him of blame, but it was just bad timing for him.
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - 82lsju - 11-29-2020
(11-29-2020, 03:00 PM)Hank 91 Wrote: Aside from the current season's disaster, the biggest problem Harbaugh has had at Michigan is that he happened to arrive at a time when Ohio State is enjoying the best run of sustained excellence in their program's history. You could argue that he should've recruited away some Ohio kids and certainly kept some of the Michigan kids who got away, but as some have said above, the program has been solid. But he was hired to beat Ohio State and win national championships. This doesn't absolve him of blame, but it was just bad timing for him.
he's also the fourth highest paid FBS football coach and not producing top four results
anyone think he'd take less pay in a contract extension......
https://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/
RE: pasportsfan - Mick - 12-06-2020
(11-28-2020, 09:51 PM)PAsportsfan Wrote: I know Harbaugh had BJ speak to the team at practice while at Stanford. BJ’s daughter was dating a Stanford player at the time. Maybe married now???
You're referring to Courtney Jones, now Courtney Brooke Jones Louks. I think she married Corbin Louks, ex-UNR WR. Might have had a cup of coffee in the NFL, with the Chiefs or Broncos. She is the CEO of Sweat Cosmetics.
Jones was a year behind me at SCU, and I coached his future wife Dana's powder puff football team. It was interesting...Jones' daughter ended up playing for North Carolina and not SCU. And candidly, I have seen Jerry Smith, SCU's coach speak. Doesn't surprise me much, I wouldn't want my daughter playing for him.
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - BostonCard - 12-06-2020
Not sure about the branding there. I get that it is trying to be sweat-proof, but still...
BC
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - thatboy - 12-06-2020
(11-29-2020, 10:54 AM)BobK Wrote: Stanford has 10 assistant coaches. 3 were hired or came with Harbaugh 7 were hired by Shaw from the outside
Ohio State is a 30 point favorite over Michigan:
https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2020/12/what-is-ohio-state-footballs-brobdingnagian-point-spread-in-the-game-against-michigan-college-betting-lines.html
I've never bet on sports, but I can't believe Ohio Sate would cover this spread. Then again I don't really follow either team.
lex24 - lex24 - 12-06-2020
(12-06-2020, 11:23 PM)thatboy Wrote:(11-29-2020, 10:54 AM)BobK Wrote: Stanford has 10 assistant coaches. 3 were hired or came with Harbaugh 7 were hired by Shaw from the outside
Ohio State is a 30 point favorite over Michigan:
https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2020/12/what-is-ohio-state-footballs-of immense proportions-point-spread-in-the-game-against-michigan-college-betting-lines.html
I've never bet on sports, but I can't believe Ohio Sate would cover this spread. Then again I don't really follow either team.
tOSU will cover. I bet it goes up by gametime.
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - akiddoc - 12-07-2020
tOSU is dang good. And UM really sucks this year. Pretty sure we could beat them this year.
RE: lex24 - thatboy - 12-07-2020
(12-06-2020, 11:56 PM)lex24 Wrote:(12-06-2020, 11:23 PM)thatboy Wrote:(11-29-2020, 10:54 AM)BobK Wrote: Stanford has 10 assistant coaches. 3 were hired or came with Harbaugh 7 were hired by Shaw from the outside
Ohio State is a 30 point favorite over Michigan:
https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2020/12/what-is-ohio-state-footballs-of immense proportions-point-spread-in-the-game-against-michigan-college-betting-lines.html
I've never bet on sports, but I can't believe Ohio Sate would cover this spread. Then again I don't really follow either team.
tOSU will cover. I bet it goes up by gametime.
Thanks Lex. I'm curious: is tOSU that good or is Michigan that bad?
RE: lex24 - SamuelMcF - 12-07-2020
(12-07-2020, 12:52 AM)thatboy Wrote: Thanks Lex. I'm curious: is tOSU that good or is Michigan that bad?
Yes.
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - JohnR34231 - 12-07-2020
Here's someone's opinion on Harbaugh's future.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/12/06/jim-harbaugh-eyes-a-potential-nfl-return/
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - teejers1 - 12-07-2020
(12-07-2020, 12:51 AM)akiddoc Wrote: tOSU is dang good. And UM really sucks this year. Pretty sure we could beat them this year.
Maybe . . . if the team has completely quit on Harbs.
If not, Michigan would handle Stanford. The Big 10 is WAY better than the Pac this year.
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - PVTree - 12-07-2020
(11-29-2020, 01:56 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(11-29-2020, 10:37 AM)baymeadows3408 Wrote:(11-29-2020, 10:17 AM)BigJohn043 Wrote: I generally think people over estimate the importance of the head coaches and under estimate the importance of the assistants. At Stanford, one of the things Harbaugh did really well was continually bring in really high quality assistants many of who had substantial NFL experience. This was really important in our success and FWIW he put together a high quality staff at the Niners as well.
Look at the MI staff. The OC & DC are both long time college guys with no NFL experience and no apparent past relationship with JH. I think that is a big part of his problem.
As coaches get successful, some start to believe their press and think that they are the key to success. I think that is what has happened to JH and frankly to Shaw as well. JH has the problem that he is well known to be crazy and I am not sure really top people want to work with him anymore. Shaws problem is hubris and ego.
Compare those two with Saban. Saban continually loses assistants but reinvests in high quality guys.
There is a lesson here....
Yeah, I think Harbaugh had the right connections to bring in NFL-level assistants to Stanford. Retention was going to be a problem because I think a lot of them were using Stanford as a stopgap, but it became a moot point when Harbaugh left and took a lot of the assistants with him. I don't know enough about Shaw to comment on the quality of his network, but he hires a lot from within and I do think an infusion of new ideas would benefit the program.
Harbaugh basically coached from the viewpoint that his charges are there to devote 100% of their time to football . . . which of course, they are not (at any college). That wears on the players. Then he continually asked for more from his administrative superiors - bathroom is a small example . . . Michigan's trips abroad are bigger examples.
But he has no doubt who is in charge of his program; thus, he wants to go out and get the best coordinators he can. Didn't he look up top college defenses on the Internet once hired by Stanford and found this Fangio guy at Western Michigan (or wherever he was at the time)? Harbaugh didn't know the guy from Adam and didn't care what the guy's personality was, whether there was a risk of rocking the boat, or what have you because Harbs knows he is in charge. Shaw . . . not so much.
Harbs worked wonders at USD; he raised the dead at Stanford; and he won big in San Francisco. I would be surprised if the next coach at Michigan wins a much as Jim has there, but you can't continually lose to tOSU and be average against the other big boys in the Conference and expect to last too long. Jim has had a very respectable run at Michigan. But I'm sure things are fraying. It's only because football is more important to Michigan and Michigan Fan that this is an issue.
Things are frayed with the football program here, too - much more fundamentally than in Ann Arbor - and no one cares, including (evidently) the Athletic Director. Shaw was right place, right time . . . not much, if anything, beyond that. (But then again, he is far from alone in that category).
The DC he looked up on the internet was Scott Shafer.
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - teejers1 - 12-07-2020
(12-07-2020, 11:24 AM)PVTree Wrote:(11-29-2020, 01:56 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(11-29-2020, 10:37 AM)baymeadows3408 Wrote:(11-29-2020, 10:17 AM)BigJohn043 Wrote: I generally think people over estimate the importance of the head coaches and under estimate the importance of the assistants. At Stanford, one of the things Harbaugh did really well was continually bring in really high quality assistants many of who had substantial NFL experience. This was really important in our success and FWIW he put together a high quality staff at the Niners as well.
Look at the MI staff. The OC & DC are both long time college guys with no NFL experience and no apparent past relationship with JH. I think that is a big part of his problem.
As coaches get successful, some start to believe their press and think that they are the key to success. I think that is what has happened to JH and frankly to Shaw as well. JH has the problem that he is well known to be crazy and I am not sure really top people want to work with him anymore. Shaws problem is hubris and ego.
Compare those two with Saban. Saban continually loses assistants but reinvests in high quality guys.
There is a lesson here....
Yeah, I think Harbaugh had the right connections to bring in NFL-level assistants to Stanford. Retention was going to be a problem because I think a lot of them were using Stanford as a stopgap, but it became a moot point when Harbaugh left and took a lot of the assistants with him. I don't know enough about Shaw to comment on the quality of his network, but he hires a lot from within and I do think an infusion of new ideas would benefit the program.
Harbaugh basically coached from the viewpoint that his charges are there to devote 100% of their time to football . . . which of course, they are not (at any college). That wears on the players. Then he continually asked for more from his administrative superiors - bathroom is a small example . . . Michigan's trips abroad are bigger examples.
But he has no doubt who is in charge of his program; thus, he wants to go out and get the best coordinators he can. Didn't he look up top college defenses on the Internet once hired by Stanford and found this Fangio guy at Western Michigan (or wherever he was at the time)? Harbaugh didn't know the guy from Adam and didn't care what the guy's personality was, whether there was a risk of rocking the boat, or what have you because Harbs knows he is in charge. Shaw . . . not so much.
Harbs worked wonders at USD; he raised the dead at Stanford; and he won big in San Francisco. I would be surprised if the next coach at Michigan wins a much as Jim has there, but you can't continually lose to tOSU and be average against the other big boys in the Conference and expect to last too long. Jim has had a very respectable run at Michigan. But I'm sure things are fraying. It's only because football is more important to Michigan and Michigan Fan that this is an issue.
Things are frayed with the football program here, too - much more fundamentally than in Ann Arbor - and no one cares, including (evidently) the Athletic Director. Shaw was right place, right time . . . not much, if anything, beyond that. (But then again, he is far from alone in that category).
The DC he looked up on the internet was Scott Shafer.
Thanks for the correction and setting the record straight.
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - BostonCard - 12-07-2020
By the way, Shafer is DC at Middle Tennessee, having flamed out as head coach for Syracuse with a 14-23 overall record. At MTSU, he dramatically improved the defense his first year, but has been headed in the wrong direction since then, with PPG allowed going up every year he has been DC.
BC
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - BostonCard - 12-15-2020
The Michigan/Iowa season finale was cancelled due to COVID-19.
https://mgoblue.com/news/2020/12/15/football-michigans-big-ten-champions-week-game-at-iowa-canceled.aspx
That means that Harbaugh will finish the season 2-4, his first losing season since 2014, when Brady Hoke went 5-7.
Raise your hand if you thought that Shaw would wind up with a better season than Harbaugh this year.
BC
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - Austroturf - 12-16-2020
(11-29-2020, 10:17 AM)BigJohn043 Wrote: I generally think people over estimate the importance of the head coaches and under estimate the importance of the assistants. At Stanford, one of the things Harbaugh did really well was continually bring in really high quality assistants many of who had substantial NFL experience. This was really important in our success and FWIW he put together a high quality staff at the Niners as well.
Look at the MI staff. The OC & DC are both long time college guys with no NFL experience and no apparent past relationship with JH. I think that is a big part of his problem.
As coaches get successful, some start to believe their press and think that they are the key to success. I think that is what has happened to JH and frankly to Shaw as well. JH has the problem that he is well known to be crazy and I am not sure really top people want to work with him anymore. Shaws problem is hubris and ego.
Compare those two with Saban. Saban continually loses assistants but reinvests in high quality guys.
There is a lesson here....
Agree with this assessment. A successful program needs to be well-staffed from top to bottom. In my view, many of the issues Shaw is facing today relate to the fact that he does NOT have the same caliber staff as Harbaugh had in his last year (2010). Look at these names from 2010: Shaw, Fangio, Hamilton, Taggart, Mason, Turley. Under Harbaugh, Lance Anderson was the outside linebackers coach, while Pritchard was a grad assistant. The key leaders in Harbaugh's last year all had the potential to move on to bigger roles and eventually did so, leaving Shaw with the task of replacing them with individuals of similar caliber. That did not happen. Harbaugh may be struggling at Michigan to assemble a staff as excellent as the one he had at Stanford in 2010, but Shaw (with connections to the NFL) is struggling just as much. It is telling that 1) Shaw has never fired an assistant and 2) no assistant in the last three years has been poached for a bigger role (except Peter Hansen, now DC at UNLV -- but how big a step up is that? I do not recall any rave reviews on this board regarding his work as ILB coach). Would Pritchard or Anderson ever be considered for an HC role? I doubt it.
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - baymeadows3408 - 12-16-2020
(12-16-2020, 04:11 AM)Austroturf Wrote: Agree with this assessment. A successful program needs to be well-staffed from top to bottom. In my view, many of the issues Shaw is facing today relate to the fact that he does NOT have the same caliber staff as Harbaugh had in his last year (2010). Look at these names from 2010: Shaw, Fangio, Hamilton, Taggart, Mason, Turley. Under Harbaugh, Lance Anderson was the outside linebackers coach, while Pritchard was a grad assistant.
Randy Hart was another member of the 2010 coaching staff. I suppose Brian Kelly wanted to bring in his own people when he was hired as Notre Dame's head coach, but given Hart's record I'm surprised he didn't retain him. Notre Dame's loss, our gain.
RE: Harbaugh in trouble again - Mick - 12-16-2020
(11-29-2020, 01:56 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(11-29-2020, 10:37 AM)baymeadows3408 Wrote:(11-29-2020, 10:17 AM)BigJohn043 Wrote: I generally think people over estimate the importance of the head coaches and under estimate the importance of the assistants. At Stanford, one of the things Harbaugh did really well was continually bring in really high quality assistants many of who had substantial NFL experience. This was really important in our success and FWIW he put together a high quality staff at the Niners as well.
Look at the MI staff. The OC & DC are both long time college guys with no NFL experience and no apparent past relationship with JH. I think that is a big part of his problem.
As coaches get successful, some start to believe their press and think that they are the key to success. I think that is what has happened to JH and frankly to Shaw as well. JH has the problem that he is well known to be crazy and I am not sure really top people want to work with him anymore. Shaws problem is hubris and ego.
Compare those two with Saban. Saban continually loses assistants but reinvests in high quality guys.
There is a lesson here....
Yeah, I think Harbaugh had the right connections to bring in NFL-level assistants to Stanford. Retention was going to be a problem because I think a lot of them were using Stanford as a stopgap, but it became a moot point when Harbaugh left and took a lot of the assistants with him. I don't know enough about Shaw to comment on the quality of his network, but he hires a lot from within and I do think an infusion of new ideas would benefit the program.
Harbaugh basically coached from the viewpoint that his charges are there to devote 100% of their time to football . . . which of course, they are not (at any college). That wears on the players. Then he continually asked for more from his administrative superiors - bathroom is a small example . . . Michigan's trips abroad are bigger examples.
But he has no doubt who is in charge of his program; thus, he wants to go out and get the best coordinators he can. Didn't he look up top college defenses on the Internet once hired by Stanford and found this Fangio guy at Western Michigan (or wherever he was at the time)? Harbaugh didn't know the guy from Adam and didn't care what the guy's personality was, whether there was a risk of rocking the boat, or what have you because Harbs knows he is in charge. Shaw . . . not so much.
Harbs worked wonders at USD; he raised the dead at Stanford; and he won big in San Francisco. I would be surprised if the next coach at Michigan wins a much as Jim has there, but you can't continually lose to tOSU and be average against the other big boys in the Conference and expect to last too long. Jim has had a very respectable run at Michigan. But I'm sure things are fraying. It's only because football is more important to Michigan and Michigan Fan that this is an issue.
Things are frayed with the football program here, too - much more fundamentally than in Ann Arbor - and no one cares, including (evidently) the Athletic Director. Shaw was right place, right time . . . not much, if anything, beyond that. (But then again, he is far from alone in that category).
Great assessment, Teejers.
We know that Harbaugh is wearing on his players. He's wearing on his administrative superiors. I particularly like the story about Harbaugh excluding Jed York from an NFC championship celebration in the locker room telling York that 'only men are allowed in here.' Classic, classic Harbaugh.
That raises the question, however...does Harbaugh have the same effect on assistants and coordinators? Can he attract the quality he once did? Would you want to work for a guy like that?