Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - Printable Version
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RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy - Mick - 06-07-2021
(06-06-2021, 01:12 PM)Giants Wrote:(06-06-2021, 08:59 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The early start time Cal had in Oxford didn't stop them from knocking off Ole Miss in their home stadium. Complaining about start times, no matter the motivation, is a bad look. That stuff is negotiated between the schools, conferences and TV networks, and Shaw knows it. If 9am PST games are a non-starter for you, make it a negotiating chip when doing the contracts to schedule and broadcast the games.
re: early (PDT) games, I lean towards - best team wins regardless of game time. As OF noted, Cal beat Mississippi (and North Carolina a few years before). The key is preparation. Practice early in the morning, get to the venue a couple days before game day, and, most importantly, take a positive/no excuses, attitude about the game.
By complaining about the game time, Shaw has given the players a reason to lose. At this point, he should be talking about the opportunity of playing before a national audience in a NFL venue and what that could mean. Beating K-State would put Stanford in the spotlight and on track for a fast start to the season.
Just so I understand...you're saying that the time of day does not affect athletic performance? I don't know that science bears that out:
https://www.insidescience.org/news/time-day-could-impact-athletes-performance-peak
From the article:
In the new research, Brandstaetter and a colleague, Elise Facer-Childs, asked a collection of accomplished field hockey and squash players with different chronotypes to complete general fitness tests at six different times of the day. They found that each chronotype had a different pattern of performance, with the best and worst performances coming at different times. Most strikingly, night owls performed very poorly in the early morning, on average about 26 percent worse than their peak level.
A 26 percent difference is pretty extreme. In a world-class 100-meter race, the variation between first and last place is often less than five percent.
RE: Recipe for football disaster - CTcard - 06-07-2021
(06-06-2021, 01:32 PM)oman Wrote: Didn't we start the home games at 11 am back in the early 80s? So as someone who will be the game, that's kind of nostalgic.
Way back in aught-18 (2018) we played a home game vs Davis at 11:00 am. The team stunk the place up, but it was Davis. And at least there both teams were in the same body-clock situation.
A few years back I put together a list. Can't find it now, but the team has a horrendous record over the past 20+ years in games starting before noon pacific. I remember very few as early as 9:00. I expect a disaster.
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - OutsiderFan - 06-07-2021
Regardless of anything, the Head Coach should be publicly saying only positive stuff about the game. He should be voicing his displeasure privately to those in decision-making positions in concert with his Pac-12 peers.
If Shaw is asked by reporters about the early time, he can say he would prefer later games and want to see that addressed in the future, but he's gonna play them when they are scheduled and challenge his team to win wherever and whenever they must.
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - BobK - 06-07-2021
Disagree OF. He is standing up for his team and conference. If the game was in the next week I’d see your point but 3 months away ? Nope now is the time to speak out.
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - oman - 06-07-2021
Stanford follks - on top of the sleep pattern issues....
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - Brickcity - 06-07-2021
(06-06-2021, 05:31 PM)BobK Wrote: maybe I’m a bit older but games were at 2:00 for years
Actually, as I thought about it more, I think Sept - Oct games started at 1:30 and Nov. games started at 1:00. This was during the eighties.
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - BobK - 06-07-2021
But late 50's thru the 70's all I recall is 2 PM.
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - Jamesy - 06-07-2021
Kick off time shouldn't be that big a deal in week 1. School isn't in session so they can practice at 9 am that whole week (or all of training camp for that matter) to get acclimated. If Shaw keeps to the same evening practice schedule, then it's on him.
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - Goose - 06-07-2021
(06-07-2021, 09:16 AM)BobK Wrote: Disagree OF. He is standing up for his team and conference. If the game was in the next week I’d see your point but 3 months away ? Nope now is the time to speak out.I agree that with the game three months away it is possible to expect that what you say will make a difference, and therefore you need to say something. However, the problem with this argument is that all involved know full well that an "early" game isn't optimal for teams traveling east. There isn't going to be any new data on the subject. The facts are that the promoters believe their interests are controlling, and given the way things are run in the NCAA and the P5 conferences, the promoters are correct. Going on record that the current situation is not optimal is fine, but will be totally ineffective as long as the money flows.
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy - Papa John - 06-07-2021
(06-06-2021, 01:18 PM)82lsju Wrote: Shaw's not the only one complaining about kick-off times, from the Oklahoma AD on the OU/NU 11am CT kick-off
Quote:"We are bitterly disappointed that the great Oklahoma-Nebraska rivalry, on the 50th anniversary of the Game of the Century, will kick off at 11 a.m. [local time]," Castiglione said in a statement. "We tried every possible avenue to proactively make our case. The Big 12 Conference also supported our strenuous efforts to secure a more traditional time that would honor this game and our fans. However, in the end, our TV partner chose to exercise its full contractual rights and denied our requests."
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/31523904/oklahoma-ad-speaks-early-kickoff-renewal-college-football-rivalry-nebraska
Comparing Oklahoma-Nebraska to Stanford-K-State is apples-to-oranges. Oklahoma and Nebraska are on the same time zone, so both teams are equally disadvantaged.
K-State may not be playing on its home field--or in its home state--but both Dallas and Manhattan, KS are on Central time. Stanford is the only team that is disadvantaged. Add to that the fact that AT&T stadium will be nothing close to a neutral site. K-State students and locals will make the 7-hour drive to Dallas in droves, and there's a huuuge alumni presence in the DFW area as well.
And while TV revenue is responsible for a big chunk of what coaches are paid, coaches who lose more than they win are fired and get paid nothing. I don't think David Shaw makes a comment like this on the spur of the moment. I think that, three months out, he is trying to get the time of the game changed in order to increase Stanford's chances of winning. If the game time doesn't change, which is the likely scenario, maybe Stanford will arrive a day or two earlier to acclimate.
So I think it's great that David Shaw stood up for his team and spoke out about this.
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - winflop - 06-08-2021
(06-07-2021, 09:12 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Regardless of anything, the Head Coach should be publicly saying only positive stuff about the game. He should be voicing his displeasure privately to those in decision-making positions in concert with his Pac-12 peers.
If Shaw is asked by reporters about the early time, he can say he would prefer later games and want to see that addressed in the future, but he's gonna play them when they are scheduled and challenge his team to win wherever and whenever they must.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. Part of the problem is that the Pac-12 as a whole hasn't taken any kind of a strong stance against the horrible bias they've been subjected to in the BCS/CFP era. It starts with the commissioner - finally we have one with a spine. It also falls on the head coaches and ADs and Shaw is among the leaders of those people. I hope we will see several others in this group chime in and give full-throated support to Shaw.
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - oldalum - 06-08-2021
After the Northwestern game, Shaw realized it did not work to do their usual many-hour pregame prep for the same number of hours before the game (he wanted to keep the same routine). Have we played an early game since then to see if it went better with a much-shortened pregame prep?
lex24 - lex24 - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 07:34 AM)winflop Wrote:(06-07-2021, 09:12 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Regardless of anything, the Head Coach should be publicly saying only positive stuff about the game. He should be voicing his displeasure privately to those in decision-making positions in concert with his Pac-12 peers.
If Shaw is asked by reporters about the early time, he can say he would prefer later games and want to see that addressed in the future, but he's gonna play them when they are scheduled and challenge his team to win wherever and whenever they must.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. Part of the problem is that the Pac-12 as a whole hasn't taken any kind of a strong stance against the horrible bias they've been subjected to in the BCS/CFP era. It starts with the commissioner - finally we have one with a spine. It also falls on the head coaches and ADs and Shaw is among the leaders of those people. I hope we will see several others in this group chime in and give full-throated support to Shaw.
Agree, Winflop. The statement is about more than just the game time. It’s about the lack of respect given the PAC-12. Now, to an extent that has been earned the last few years. But even in good years the PAC-12 is overlooked. No better example than McCaffrey in ‘15. Had one of the greatest years in College history. Should not only have won the Award, he should have won overwhelmingly. I remember one voter commenting that he never saw him play.
As for his team, Im sure Shaw will use the “lack of respect” angle as motivation. It’s a little silly to say that 3 months prior he’s giving them an excuse.
Finally, Shaw is someone that speaks his mind. Among PAC-12 coaches, he is the leader of the group when it comes to coaches speaking for the Conference. He’s earned that.
(06-07-2021, 02:08 PM)Papa John Wrote:(06-06-2021, 01:18 PM)82lsju Wrote: Shaw's not the only one complaining about kick-off times, from the Oklahoma AD on the OU/NU 11am CT kick-off
Quote:"We are bitterly disappointed that the great Oklahoma-Nebraska rivalry, on the 50th anniversary of the Game of the Century, will kick off at 11 a.m. [local time]," Castiglione said in a statement. "We tried every possible avenue to proactively make our case. The Big 12 Conference also supported our strenuous efforts to secure a more traditional time that would honor this game and our fans. However, in the end, our TV partner chose to exercise its full contractual rights and denied our requests."
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/31523904/oklahoma-ad-speaks-early-kickoff-renewal-college-football-rivalry-nebraska
Comparing Oklahoma-Nebraska to Stanford-K-State is apples-to-oranges. Oklahoma and Nebraska are on the same time zone, so both teams are equally disadvantaged.
K-State may not be playing on its home field--or in its home state--but both Dallas and Manhattan, KS are on Central time. Stanford is the only team that is disadvantaged. Add to that the fact that AT&T stadium will be nothing close to a neutral site. K-State students and locals will make the 7-hour drive to Dallas in droves, and there's a huuuge alumni presence in the DFW area as well.
And while TV revenue is responsible for a big chunk of what coaches are paid, coaches who lose more than they win are fired and get paid nothing. I don't think David Shaw makes a comment like this on the spur of the moment. I think that, three months out, he is trying to get the time of the game changed in order to increase Stanford's chances of winning. If the game time doesn't change, which is the likely scenario, maybe Stanford will arrive a day or two earlier to acclimate.
So I think it's great that David Shaw stood up for his team and spoke out about this.
Yep. How often does an East Coast Power 5 team come West and play at 7:30?
RE: lex24 - terry - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 07:46 AM)lex24 Wrote: Yep. How often does an East Coast Power 5 team come West and play at 7:30?
Stanford's game at Wake Forest in 2009 started at 9 am PDT (12 noon EDT). Stanford lost 24-17.
We returned the favor the following year at home, when we kicked off against Wake Forest at 8:15 pm PDT (11:15 pm EDT). We won 68-24.
I'm guessing that Shaw is so vocal about the early kickoff time because he's still emotionally scarred by the Northwestern game in 2015, when Stanford kicked off at 11 am CDT (9 am PDT) and played miserably in a 16-6 loss. That was the only game all season long in which Stanford scored fewer than 30 points. That was a really good Stanford team, which ended up winning the Rose Bowl and ranked #3 in the final poll.
RE: lex24 - SamuelMcF - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 07:46 AM)lex24 Wrote: Yep. How often does an East Coast Power 5 team come West and play at 7:30?
Since 2016 there have been 8, and the Pac-12 teams that were not a terrible Oregon State won all of them. A few big upsets/spread beats took place as well:
#11 Texas @ Cal 2016 (Cal won by 7, Texas was favored by 7)
Ole Miss @ Cal 2017 (Cal won by 11, Ole Miss was favored by 7)
UVA @ Oregon 2016 (Oregon won by 18)
Texas Tech @ Arizona 2019 (Arizona won by 14)
Texas Tech @ ASU 2016 (7pm PST, ASU won by 13 despite TTU's QB being Patrick Freaking Mahomes)
#15 Michigan St @ ASU 2018 (ASU won by 3, Michigan St was favored by 15)
-
Minnesota @ OSU 2017 (7pm PST, Minnesota blew them out...OSU went 1-11 that year)
OkSt @ OSU 2019 (OkSt won by 18)
There are no such games this year.
Also, a fun tidbit: Wazzu and Utah did not play a single P5 OOC game in this entire time span and are continuing not to do so this year. Arizona's only one was the Texas Tech game above, and they are also not playing a P5 OOC game this year. Why should they?
RE: lex24 - needle - 06-08-2021
If you are wondering, as I did:
Quote:The game will also serve as a lucrative payday for only one team. Because this game was originally supposed to be played on K-State’s campus, Stanford will only receive enough money to cover travel costs as agreed upon in the original home-and-home series contract.
K-State gets $2.8 million, apparently.
On discussions about a neutral site game:
Quote:“Then when they started talking numbers we realized we will net more than we would net from playing Stanford at home. With what we faced this year financially, being able to have that nice guarantee will help us build things back up.”
https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/big-12/kansas-state/article248479885.html
Perhaps I'm way off on this, but given the tenor of Shaw's comments I'd say there is a very small but non-zero chance Stanford pulls out of the game entirely.
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - Papa John - 06-08-2021
A little more context to Samuel McF's post. I'm pretty sure that September games in the state of Arizona are always played at night, due to the heat:
Average high and low temps in Tempe, AZ on September 10: 99 and 79 degrees
Average high and low temps in Tucson, AZ on September 10: 94 and 72 degrees
And that TTU loss to ASU was not due to Mahomes. That was a basketball score.
RE: lex24 - gailtate - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 10:38 AM)needle Wrote: If you are wondering, as I did:
Quote:The game will also serve as a lucrative payday for only one team. Because this game was originally supposed to be played on K-State’s campus, Stanford will only receive enough money to cover travel costs as agreed upon in the original home-and-home series contract.
K-State gets $2.8 million, apparently.
On discussions about a neutral site game:
Quote:“Then when they started talking numbers we realized we will net more than we would net from playing Stanford at home. With what we faced this year financially, being able to have that nice guarantee will help us build things back up.”
https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/big-12/kansas-state/article248479885.html
Perhaps I'm way off on this, but given the tenor of Shaw's comments I'd say there is a very small but non-zero chance Stanford pulls out of the game entirely.
You're way off on this. Hint: consider the contractual implications (translation: consequences).
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - Giants - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 07:34 AM)winflop Wrote:(06-07-2021, 09:12 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Regardless of anything, the Head Coach should be publicly saying only positive stuff about the game. He should be voicing his displeasure privately to those in decision-making positions in concert with his Pac-12 peers.
If Shaw is asked by reporters about the early time, he can say he would prefer later games and want to see that addressed in the future, but he's gonna play them when they are scheduled and challenge his team to win wherever and whenever they must.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. Part of the problem is that the Pac-12 as a whole hasn't taken any kind of a strong stance against the horrible bias they've been subjected to in the BCS/CFP era. It starts with the commissioner - finally we have one with a spine. It also falls on the head coaches and ADs and Shaw is among the leaders of those people. I hope we will see several others in this group chime in and give full-throated support to Shaw.
And I could disagree more strongly re: your comments.
The P12 desperately needs to address the common refrain that it is a “not to be taken seriously” conference. The way to do this is play high profile games v. other P5 conferences. It doesn’t get much higher profile than playing one of the opening weekend NFL venue games. Stanford was fortunate to snag the invitation. Now, it is incumbent upon the Cardinal to win the game regardless of the kickoff time.
If the conference begins to show it can compete in these marquee games, the P12 will be invited to play in the even higher profile night games on the opening weekend. You gotta crawl before you can walk. Right now, the P12 is in its crawling stage. Heck, if I was the commissioner I would sign as many contracts as possible to get the conference’s teams in high profile TV games regardless of the kickoff time. If successful, I would then be in a position to dictate who, where, and game time.
RE: Shaw: The agony and the ec$tacy [merged] - Goose - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 12:38 PM)Giants Wrote: The P12 desperately needs to address the common refrain that it is a “not to be taken seriously” conference. The way to do this is play high profile games v. other P5 conferences. It doesn’t get much higher profile than playing one of the opening weekend NFL venue games. Stanford was fortunate to snag the invitation. Now, it is incumbent upon the Cardinal to win the game regardless of the kickoff time.If "being taken seriously" is driven by actual competence on the field, and if the selection of time slots for TV is driven by the desire to watch the best teams play, you would certainly be correct. Unfortunately, IMHO neither of the premises are correct. The "lesser" teams in the B1G, ACC, and especially SEC are presented as competent by the media and hyped by the same even when everybody knows they are average teams at best. The reason for this is that these teams have many more fans than PAC-12 schools do. You don't want to tell your market their teams aren't good, no need to watch, so you don't. You tell them the opposite, and everybody just agrees to ignore reality because it serves their adgenda to do so. The networks would rather put Alabama vs <the victim of the week> in prime time than they would a "good" PAC-12 vs some other "good" P5 school because they (unfortunately correctly) know that more people will watch the Alabama game. Secondly, right now there really aren't may reliably "good" PAC-12 teams and there is no logical equivalent of an Alabama, tOSU, or Clemson that can be hyped to the max and will reliably draw large viewing audiences. These facts create the present situation. Having really good, exciting football teams in the PAC-12 would not really move the meter much because there just aren't as many fans. It is all about the TV money.
If the conference begins to show it can compete in these marquee games, the P12 will be invited to play in the even higher profile night games on the opening weekend. You gotta crawl before you can walk. Right now, the P12 is in its crawling stage. Heck, if I was the commissioner I would sign as many contracts as possible to get the conference’s teams in high profile TV games regardless of the kickoff time. If successful, I would then be in a position to dictate who, where, and game time.