Shaw at Sea Level - Printable Version
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RE: Shaw at Sea Level - BigJohn043 - 09-04-2021
(09-04-2021, 06:52 PM)norcard Wrote:(09-04-2021, 04:54 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(09-04-2021, 04:23 PM)norcard Wrote: really no need for opponents to come on here when we have fans like this
Out of curiosity, norcard, how long have you been a Stanford football fan? I've been attending games at Stanford and elsewhere for close to 50 years - and gailtate perhaps even longer. We've seen a lot over the years and have first-hand experience in seeing what a vibrant, healthy program looks like - at least from a fan's perspective, which arguably is the most important perspective. The point is that we care, and have cared, for decades. And what we're seeing now - and I'd argue have been seeing for many, many years - is alarming . . . as in existentially so.
And if you believe this, and if you care, then the question becomes: what to do? Literally since the Fiesta Bowl, I've asked, pleaded, begged, for Shaw to hire a real OC to institute a real college offense. When that proved futile, then it was asking Muir to force Shaw's hand on this. Again, to no avail. Not only does the AD not see this problem, he instead gives the head coach a multi-year (some say lifetime) contract at $6.7 million/year base. Mind boggling.
Shaw and Muir are now part of the problem.
I agree with Lex that Stanford as an institution needs to decide if it wants to compete in D1 football in the Brave New World of Collegiate Athletics. (I don't know how Stanford will answer this question . . . it could well bow out). But if the answer is yes, then both Shaw and Muir must go. It sucks to say that because Shaw has many fine qualities that would make him a great coach at Stanford. But he has only himself - and particularly his myopia, stubborness and pride - to blame for where things are.
And no one should shed a tear if this unlikely change were to occur. Shaw has been richly compensated for his time at Stanford. Some might say over-compensated, and he and his kids are set for life. We all should be so fortunate.
Since 2005. I've seen plenty of ugly games. With the academic requirements of the university, some people on here need to lower their expectations. Stanford will never be Alabama on the field, (reloading every year) and that's fine.
What we don't need is an overly acerbic fan base when in-person attendance was already bad during some of the better years these past 5 seasons.
In terms of what I would change, I would get a new offensive assistant along with better Defensive and OL coaching plus better strength and conditioning coaching. Since Turley left, things haven't been the same injuries or performance wise.
For those clamoring for Shaw to leave. Who do you think of quality would actually come in? Stanford has trouble getting fans and apparently admin support (as seen with transfers). Another Wlat is not out of the question. Another Harbaugh likely isn't walking through the door.
Anything is better than this. At least we might have some hope.....
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - winflop - 09-04-2021
(09-04-2021, 06:52 PM)norcard Wrote: With the academic requirements of the university, some people on here need to lower their expectations. Stanford will never be Alabama on the field, (reloading every year) and that's fine.
Jim Harbaugh showed all of us that we DIDN'T need to lower our expectations, and Shaw built on that with Harbaugh's recruits.
You're right that we will never be Alabama - nobody's expecting that. But I believe Stanford is capable of fielding winning football teams every single year, with one or two a decade playing in an NY6 bowl. The team we saw on the field today is wholly incapable of meeting that expectation.
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - Austroturf - 09-05-2021
I have stated this before and will state it again: the current moribund condition of Cardinal football can be traced to a downward spiral in the coaching staff, with each new appointment being a downgrade on the prior coach. Harbaugh amassed a really strong coaching staff (Shaw, Mason, Fangio, Hamilton, Taggart, etc.) that helped him recruit and develop excellent players. That success and that staff began a virtuous circle of attracting excellent recruits with further excellent player development and these players having subsequent success in the NFL.
Shaw inherited that staff, had success with it and has since overseen its complete degradation. Would any top 25 team hire Pritchard away as OC? Anderson as DC? Alamar has had a good run on special teams, but he is already 60. There is not an individual among Shaw's current leadership team with head coaching potential; and if you only consider hires Shaw has made, his coaching tree consists of one individual who acceded to a head coaching job (Mike Bloomgren, Rice).
It is a truism that, as a leader, you are only as good as your people. And in D1 football, that includes coaches AND players. Excellent players want to be part of excellent programs and will look at the coaching staff to see what their chances are of having maximum success there. Right now, Shaw's current staff does not consist of top flight coaches; and that will have a negative effect on recruiting and player development. Any course correction in the current decline needs to begin with a revitalization of the coaching staff: Shaw needs to go out with a pile of money and hire some top flight assistants with upward potential -- coaches that could conceivably replace him or another D1 head coach. Until this happens, nothing will change.
I don't want to be unfair, but Pritchard is the glaring example of how Shaw has failed to maintain an elite coaching staff. Pritchard was already a questionable QB coach; and while many on this board were railing about this situation and imploring Shaw to get a top-flight QB coach on board, Shaw promoted Pritchard to OC when Bloomgren left. Pure madness. The anemic offense we all saw on Saturday was a direct result of this. And there was no Bryce Love or Davis Mills to help mask the underlying issues with an exceptional individual performance. A total of 39 yards rushing against K-State? Really?
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - 81alum - 09-05-2021
(09-05-2021, 02:14 AM)Austroturf Wrote: I have stated this before and will state it again: the current moribund condition of Cardinal football can be traced to a downward spiral in the coaching staff, with each new appointment being a downgrade on the prior coach. Harbaugh amassed a really strong coaching staff (Shaw, Mason, Fangio, Hamilton, Taggart, etc.) that helped him recruit and develop excellent players. That success and that staff began a virtuous circle of attracting excellent recruits with further excellent player development and these players having subsequent success in the NFL.This makes a lot of sense to me. Going back to Bill Walsh hiring Denny Green, Stanford's successful assistant coaches have been people with pro experience and upwards potential. I've worried about the assistant coaches under Shaw.
Shaw inherited that staff, had success with it and has since overseen its complete degradation. Would any top 25 team hire Pritchard away as OC? Anderson as DC? Alamar has had a good run on special teams, but he is already 60. There is not an individual among Shaw's current leadership team with head coaching potential; and if you only consider hires Shaw has made, his coaching tree consists of one individual who acceded to a head coaching job (Mike Bloomgren, Rice).
It is a truism that, as a leader, you are only as good as your people. And in D1 football, that includes coaches AND players. Excellent players want to be part of excellent programs and will look at the coaching staff to see what their chances are of having maximum success there. Right now, Shaw's current staff does not consist of top flight coaches; and that will have a negative effect on recruiting and player development. Any course correction in the current decline needs to begin with a revitalization of the coaching staff: Shaw needs to go out with a pile of money and hire some top flight assistants with upward potential -- coaches that could conceivably replace him or another D1 head coach. Until this happens, nothing will change.
I don't want to be unfair, but Pritchard is the glaring example of how Shaw has failed to maintain an elite coaching staff. Pritchard was already a questionable QB coach; and while many on this board were railing about this situation and imploring Shaw to get a top-flight QB coach on board, Shaw promoted Pritchard to OC when Bloomgren left. Pure madness. The anemic offense we all saw on Saturday was a direct result of this. And there was no Bryce Love or Davis Mills to help mask the underlying issues with an exceptional individual performance. A total of 39 yards rushing against K-State? Really?
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - Austroturf - 09-05-2021
(09-05-2021, 04:22 AM)81alum Wrote:(09-05-2021, 02:14 AM)Austroturf Wrote: I have stated this before and will state it again: the current moribund condition of Cardinal football can be traced to a downward spiral in the coaching staff, with each new appointment being a downgrade on the prior coach. Harbaugh amassed a really strong coaching staff (Shaw, Mason, Fangio, Hamilton, Taggart, etc.) that helped him recruit and develop excellent players. That success and that staff began a virtuous circle of attracting excellent recruits with further excellent player development and these players having subsequent success in the NFL.This makes a lot of sense to me. Going back to Bill Walsh hiring Denny Green, Stanford's successful assistant coaches have been people with pro experience and upwards potential. I've worried about the assistant coaches under Shaw.
Shaw inherited that staff, had success with it and has since overseen its complete degradation. Would any top 25 team hire Pritchard away as OC? Anderson as DC? Alamar has had a good run on special teams, but he is already 60. There is not an individual among Shaw's current leadership team with head coaching potential; and if you only consider hires Shaw has made, his coaching tree consists of one individual who acceded to a head coaching job (Mike Bloomgren, Rice).
It is a truism that, as a leader, you are only as good as your people. And in D1 football, that includes coaches AND players. Excellent players want to be part of excellent programs and will look at the coaching staff to see what their chances are of having maximum success there. Right now, Shaw's current staff does not consist of top flight coaches; and that will have a negative effect on recruiting and player development. Any course correction in the current decline needs to begin with a revitalization of the coaching staff: Shaw needs to go out with a pile of money and hire some top flight assistants with upward potential -- coaches that could conceivably replace him or another D1 head coach. Until this happens, nothing will change.
I don't want to be unfair, but Pritchard is the glaring example of how Shaw has failed to maintain an elite coaching staff. Pritchard was already a questionable QB coach; and while many on this board were railing about this situation and imploring Shaw to get a top-flight QB coach on board, Shaw promoted Pritchard to OC when Bloomgren left. Pure madness. The anemic offense we all saw on Saturday was a direct result of this. And there was no Bryce Love or Davis Mills to help mask the underlying issues with an exceptional individual performance. A total of 39 yards rushing against K-State? Really?
It's really a no-brainer. Harbaugh was able to build a successful team because he hired excellent coaches (including Shaw), who helped him recruit and develop excellent players. As long as Shaw had key members of that staff (and the players they recruited and developed), he enjoyed a lot of success. When the Harbaugh hires eventually moved on to bigger roles, Shaw did not replace them with coaches of equal talent and potential, and the downward slide began.
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - lex24 - 09-05-2021
Set Shaw aside for a second. If possible. Stanford hasn’t had much of a fan base for decades. I mean most of the time when building a new stadium you don’t slice it in half.
I started going to games in about. ‘66. Everything was different. No TV. Every game started at 1 (or was it 12:30). There were not a ton youth sports leagues that played Saturdays. - especially soccer. Going to the game was a thing to do
For me and my friends.
Now, you have no idea when the game is played - and often it’s at a crappy time. It’s on TV. Kids are playing games, not watching them. And I suspect the student body interest is significantly lower.
Not a great recipe. When they win, they draw decently. When they don’t…….
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - 81alum - 09-05-2021
(09-05-2021, 07:03 AM)lex24 Wrote: Set Shaw aside for a second. If possible. Stanford hasn’t had much of a fan base for decades. I mean most of the time when building a new stadium you don’t slice it in half.I agree with all of that. Of course, I now live in Palo Alto so I can be nostalgic for the good old days when games were held on Saturday afternoons at predictable times. When I lived in other parts of the country I longed for games to be televised--at any time, just so I could watch. But yes, the game of football before cable television was a different entity than after, and I don't like the new version as much.
I started going to games in about. ‘66. Everything was different. No TV. Every game started at 1 (or was it 12:30). There were not a ton youth sports leagues that played Saturdays. - especially soccer. Going to the game was a thing to do
For me and my friends.
Now, you have no idea when the game is played - and often it’s at a crappy time. It’s on TV. Kids are playing games, not watching them. And I suspect the student body interest is significantly lower.
Not a great recipe. When they win, they draw decently. When they don’t…….
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - Maple Leaf - 09-05-2021
(09-04-2021, 03:17 PM)Phogge Wrote: How do you calculate dollars per win if you don't win any?
After getting shellacked by SC and possibly losing to Vandy how do you calculate the frowns at Chuck Taylor Grove? By blood alcohol level?
blood alcohol level is a start and from there you can go to incontinent pads, and tubs of 'Preparation H'; I am sure the domers have developed a full range of such tests over the years.
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - Mick - 09-05-2021
(09-04-2021, 04:56 PM)81alum Wrote: Hypothesis: Stanford historically has always been at a disadvantage in this game. In fact, half our coaches have been failures or mediocre while here at Stanford. Think of the illustrious names of Harris, Teevens, Wiggin, and Curtis. Even Denny Green was 16-18 and never won a bowl. Jack Elway had a losing record. Jack Christianson had a winning record and pro credentials, but was fired after a quarterback controversy. Many of these "losers" were smart, experienced coaches who flopped at Stanford. I offer it as a theory only: success at Stanford is far more difficult to attain and even more difficult to sustain than at schools that lack all of our profound differences. And as college sports become increasingly professionalized (corrupt, in my view) these differences will grow ever larger.
I was at a Junior Olympics volleyball tournament a few years back, and I happened to be looking over the shoulder of the Stanford volleyball coach. He had the Top 50 players listed, and four were highlighted. I asked him if they were the players he really wanted. He replied, "these are the four -- out of the Top 50 -- that can get into Stanford." Stanford recruits five players in a typical year.
Same for football. When you're recruiting from 10% (or less) of the available pool for football talent, you'd better hit on every single one. It's just too difficult otherwise.
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - oldalum - 09-05-2021
(09-05-2021, 07:03 AM)lex24 Wrote: There were not a ton youth sports leagues that played Saturdays. - especially soccer.+100. My season tickets had progressed over the years to what I thought was the perfect location in the old stadium. Then I dropped them when I realized that, due to my kids' sports, I had been able to attend exactly one half of football over two seasons.
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - vataha - 09-05-2021
Getting rid of Todd Husak was not the answer.
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - TrumpCard - 09-05-2021
Austrotruf has it right. Pritchard needs to go. I know Shaw would like to find a soft landing for him, but I don't think one will be available given the dreck we're seeing from Stanford's offense.
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - vataha - 09-05-2021
Getting rid of Todd Husak was not the answer.
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - Hank 91 - 09-05-2021
I've got a question for the collective memory of the 'board. Has David Shaw ever removed an assistant?
A few have moved on for other opportunities, but I don't recall any being dismissed. I agree with what most people are saying here regarding Shaw's future -- I can't imagine him going to the NFL, and I can't imagine him being fired. The only way we're going to see anything different, particularly with the offense, is if we see changes on the staff. Right now I can't imagine there are any teams looking to hire anyone away from the Stanford staff, so only a complete meltdown this season or strong urging from Bernard Muir might convince Shaw to make some changes. That's the hope.
One more thing -- Prince's best album is Sign O' the Times.
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - teejers1 - 09-05-2021
(09-04-2021, 05:56 PM)oman Wrote: Purple Rain wasn't Prince's best album. Therefore your post is worthless.
Just have to say that this post brought a much-needed chuckle, thanks.
Also, I smiled at the "hold my beer" comment elsewhere. Don't know where that phrase initiated, but it's use is often hilarious (as it was vis a vis UW saying it to Stanford).
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - martyup - 09-05-2021
(09-05-2021, 12:33 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(09-04-2021, 05:56 PM)oman Wrote: Purple Rain wasn't Prince's best album. Therefore your post is worthless.
Just have to say that this post brought a much-needed chuckle, thanks.
Also, I smiled at the "hold my beer" comment elsewhere. Don't know where that phrase initiated, but it's use is often hilarious (as it was vis a vis UW saying it to Stanford).
If Shaw decides to start West against the Trojans, I hope he prefaces the announcement with "Hold my beer."
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - BostonCard - 09-05-2021
(09-05-2021, 12:33 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(09-04-2021, 05:56 PM)oman Wrote: Purple Rain wasn't Prince's best album. Therefore your post is worthless.
Just have to say that this post brought a much-needed chuckle, thanks.
Also, I smiled at the "hold my beer" comment elsewhere. Don't know where that phrase initiated, but it's use is often hilarious (as it was vis a vis UW saying it to Stanford).
It’s gonna be a long season. If we can’t find some humor in it, we are going to be a very miserable bunch. It’s not healthy to be in a perpetual state of outrage.
BC
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - 76lsjumb - 09-05-2021
(09-05-2021, 12:48 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(09-05-2021, 12:33 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(09-04-2021, 05:56 PM)oman Wrote: Purple Rain wasn't Prince's best album. Therefore your post is worthless.
Just have to say that this post brought a much-needed chuckle, thanks.
Also, I smiled at the "hold my beer" comment elsewhere. Don't know where that phrase initiated, but it's use is often hilarious (as it was vis a vis UW saying it to Stanford).
It’s gonna be a long season. If we can’t find some humor in it, we are going to be a very miserable bunch. It’s not healthy to be in a perpetual state of outrage.
BC
“…a perpetual state of outrage.”
Didn’t that replace “More signal. Less noise.” several years ago?
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - Austroturf - 09-05-2021
(09-05-2021, 12:09 PM)Hank 91 Wrote: I've got a question for the collective memory of the 'board. Has David Shaw ever removed an assistant?
A few have moved on for other opportunities, but I don't recall any being dismissed. I agree with what most people are saying here regarding Shaw's future -- I can't imagine him going to the NFL, and I can't imagine him being fired. The only way we're going to see anything different, particularly with the offense, is if we see changes on the staff. Right now I can't imagine there are any teams looking to hire anyone away from the Stanford staff, so only a complete meltdown this season or strong urging from Bernard Muir might convince Shaw to make some changes. That's the hope.
One more thing -- Prince's best album is Sign O' the Times.
I have made this claim multiple times and have yet to find an example of a Shaw staff member who was dismissed for performance. Perhaps there were some cases we simply did not know about. Carberry with the O-Line was certainly not a success story. Did he move to the NFL (LA Rams) of his own accord, or was he "encouraged" to move? We will never know. There are conflicting stories about Turley and why he left the program. I have yet to see any concrete statistics, but his departure appears to have coincided with a higher propensity for injuries among the players. This may be purely anecdotal. But, no, to my knowledge Shaw has NEVER dismissed an assistant coach. I mean, you don't fire family, right?
RE: Shaw at Sea Level - CowboyIndian - 09-05-2021
(09-04-2021, 12:49 PM)teejers1 Wrote: P.S. Hey CowbodyIndian: are we laughing now? "Laughable" - think that was your retort when I said KSU would beat Stanford way back when. Yeah, yeah, you were directing that at me personally and not at the prediction; still, there is nothing funny about the state of affairs that both Bernard Shaw and David Shaw are responsible for with the football program.
It was my great “good fortune” to be in attendance at a friend’s memorial in SW Montana and thus spared from watching the Sisyphean opening-game shitshow.
On the other hand, I am touched and flattered to have you recall and quote one of my insignificant little posts from days gone by. I hope you’ll continue to be such a faithful reader.
Meanwhile…I’ve had “Ooh, Baby, Baby” by Smokey Robinson worming my ear for a couple of weeks now and would like to have it stop. What would you recommend?
Gratefully,
CI