Outside Topic MLB HOF - Printable Version
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RE: MLB HOF - Mick - 05-14-2025
(05-14-2025, 07:53 PM)Giants Wrote:terry dateline='[url=tel:1747252187' Wrote: 1747252187[/url]']
A question for all of you -- If you had a vote, which of the following players would you vote to include in the Hall of Fame?
Pete RoseShoeless Joe JacksonBarry BondsRoger ClemensAlex RodriguezSammy SosaMark McGwireRafael PalmeiroGary Sheffield
Rose
Jackson
Bonds
Clemens
Rodriguez
Sosa
All six of them deserve a place in the Hall. They were outstanding players.
Note: If we are going to nitpick over their off-field behavior, we should take a long, hard look at the existing enshrines who had significant character flaws.
Note2: I am an advocate of judging players by what they accomplished between the white lines.
Completely agree. I'd be interested in that Hall. But that ship sailed a mighty long time ago...
RE: MLB HOF - terry - 05-15-2025
(05-14-2025, 07:53 PM)Giants Wrote: Rose
Jackson
Bonds
Clemens
Rodriguez
Sosa
All six of them deserve a place in the Hall. They were outstanding players.
Note: If we are going to nitpick over their off-field behavior, we should take a long, hard look at the existing enshrines who had significant character flaws.
Note2: I am an advocate of judging players by what they accomplished between the white lines.
When the issue is steroids, are we really just "nitpicking their off-field behavior"? There's a reasonable argument that when it comes to steroid users, "what they accomplished between the white lines" was influenced -- some might say tainted -- by the performance boost they got from steroids.
But putting that issue aside for the moment, I'm curious about how you distinguish among Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, and Sheffield. Some numbers:
Avg Hits HRs RBIs OPS WAR
Sosa............... .273 2408 609 1667 .878 58.6
McGwire......... .263 1626 583 1414 .982 62.2
Palmeiro......... .288 3020 569 1835 .885 71.9
Sheffield......... .292 2689 509 1676 .907 60.5
RE: MLB HOF - Mick - 05-15-2025
(05-15-2025, 07:50 AM)terry Wrote:(05-14-2025, 07:53 PM)Giants Wrote: Rose
Jackson
Bonds
Clemens
Rodriguez
Sosa
All six of them deserve a place in the Hall. They were outstanding players.
Note: If we are going to nitpick over their off-field behavior, we should take a long, hard look at the existing enshrines who had significant character flaws.
Note2: I am an advocate of judging players by what they accomplished between the white lines.
When the issue is steroids, are we really just "nitpicking their off-field behavior"? There's a reasonable argument that when it comes to steroid users, "what they accomplished between the white lines" was influenced -- some might say tainted -- by the performance boost they got from steroids.
But putting that issue aside for the moment, I'm curious about how you distinguish among Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, and Sheffield. Some numbers:
Avg Hits HRs RBIs OPS WAR
Sosa............... .273 2408 609 1667 .878 58.6
McGwire......... .263 1626 583 1414 .982 62.2
Palmeiro......... .288 3020 569 1835 .885 71.9
Sheffield......... .292 2689 509 1676 .907 60.5
It is noteworthy that Clemens, Pettite, Gagne, Brown and other pitchers used PEDs as well. Makes the steroid batting accomplishments even more impressive...
RE: MLB HOF - BostonCard - 05-15-2025
On the other hand, there were honest players whose careers were wrecked because they were pitching against jacked hitters or trying to hit against juiced pitchers.
The biggest thing, though, is you just never know how things would have gone had there not been PEDs. Bonds would probably have still been a generational talent and had numbers worthy of the HoF, but he would probably not have hit 70 home runs in 2001 without steroids. So, would it have been 50, 60, enough to still have a share of the record? Nobody knows, and that’s what’s frustrating about it.
BC
RE: MLB HOF - Mick - 05-16-2025
(05-15-2025, 11:45 PM)BostonCard Wrote: On the other hand, there were honest players whose careers were wrecked because they were pitching against jacked hitters or trying to hit against juiced pitchers.
The biggest thing, though, is you just never know how things would have gone had there not been PEDs. Bonds would probably have still been a generational talent and had numbers worthy of the HoF, but he would probably not have hit 70 home runs in 2001 without steroids. So, would it have been 50, 60, enough to still have a share of the record? Nobody knows, and that’s what’s frustrating about it.
BC
Agreed. I do wonder if Jeff Kent would have made the HoF, and I wonder how Will Clark would have done against PED-free pitchers. Would Kent have had 600 doubles and 400 HRs, up from 560 and 377? Would Clark have had 500 and 300, maybe been a .315 career hitter up from .303? We'll never know.
RE: MLB HOF - JJJ - 05-17-2025
(05-14-2025, 11:28 AM)Treebound Wrote: While Ohtani's personal translator/manager/best friend was convicted and is taking the fall, I find it very hard to believe Ohtani knew nothing here. If they are/were very good/best friends then he likely had some knowledge of the betting. MLB is all about the money, so they were happy to see this new international star come through it all "clean" and the money keep flowing in from Asia. I don't buy it.You’re welcome to believe in conspiracy theories but if you listened to voice recordings of the translator (definitely not a best friend) pretending to be his boss to wire money to accounts of the translator’s choosing multiple times, combined with how little the typical Japanese athlete knows about the “real world” and always depends on those around them to take care of distractions, it’s rather obvious all he was guilty of is naivete. Plus the translator wasn’t very good as a translator and lied about his credentials. He got what he deserved.
I agree that Rose is not a model citizen and the committee will need to decide if he ultimately gets into the Hall.
RE: MLB HOF - Treebound - 05-17-2025
The translator's story changed multiple times as this story was breaking. Yes, I believe Ohtani was naive, likely so naive he didn't know about the gambling rule or history. For me, he knew more than what came out and his lawyers and handlers jumped in quickly to lock things down. Where there is smoke there is fire. As BC pointed out, if he's addicted, then the behavior will likely manifest again. I hope Stanford's Rintaro breaks Ohtani's records as he did in high school.
As for the players list - I think all of those down to Sosa should get in, but with an asterisk to gambling or steroids. I do think some of the voters might just keep Rose out given his attitude/anger post ban.
As for the character guidance for the HOF, well, we all know how much that helped Toby, Andrew and CMac for the Voldemort/Voldamort Trophy.
RE: MLB HOF - TonyLima - 05-17-2025
Forget all that. I've long believed that baseball writers should have no role in picking HOF members. They vote with their feels. That's one reason Bonds has been denied membership for so long. The writers have "moral" objections to his PED use even during the period before it was banned. Far better to let the old-timers committee take over the entire job.
I've actually been to the HOF -- presented a paper there at a conference. Here's a link to the publication. One local told me the HOF has a single main concern: selling as many entry tickets as possible. FWIW.
RE: MLB HOF - BostonCard - 06-16-2025
lol, what could possibly go wrong…
https://bsky.app/profile/ihavethatonvinyl.com/post/3lrr3rckc4c2q
BC
RE: MLB HOF - Papa John - 06-16-2025
(06-16-2025, 08:22 PM)BostonCard Wrote: lol, what could possibly go wrong…Before it was FanDuel Sports Network, it was Bally Sports West. We get it on basic cable (Cox Communications) here in the Santa Barbara area. My son is a big Angels fan, so we watch it frequently.
https://bsky.app/profile/ihavethatonvinyl.com/post/3lrr3rckc4c2q
On the other hand, the Dodgers are on something called Spectrum SportsNet LA, which we don't get without paying extra $$. Plus Dodgers games on MLB network regional broadcasts are blacked out. I don't really care, because I don't like the Dodgers and when they are blacked out on MLB we sometimes get Giants games, which is pretty cool. But my understanding--please correct me if I'm wrong--is that a lot of folks who live in the city of Los Angeles (I live 100 miles away) can't watch the Dodgers on basic cable. Assuming anyone in LA still has basic cable.
RE: MLB HOF - PVTree - 06-16-2025
Having grown up in Chicago, before Wrigley had lights, I'd come home from school to watch all the Cubbies' home games. Back then, WGN televised 156 out of 162 season games (for some reason they didn't broadcast the 2 series in San Diego).
The schedule was easy back then. Each League had 2 divisions of 6 teams and no interleague games. Each team played 18 games vs. division opponents and 12 games against the other league division.
The math adds up to 18x5 + 12x6 = 162 games.