The sad state of our basketball program - Printable Version
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Re: The sad state of our basketball program - Roberton3 - 01-21-2013
(01-21-2013, 09:28 AM)garvin link Wrote:Quote:I'd bet, for example, that Stanford gives a little boost to kids from Palo Alto.
I'd bet exactly the reverse. I'd bet that kids from Palo Alto have to have better qualifications than those from, say, Tucumcari, N.M. or Liberal, Kansas, because so many of the former apply and so few of the latter. There is probably some little tilt, whether official policy or not, towards children of Stanford faculty members, but otherwise any Palo Alto quota is undoubtedly a ceiling rather than a floor.
I think we're making different comparisons. I was saying I'd bet that it's a little bit easier to get into Stanford if you're from Palo Alto than it is if you're from some town that isn't Stanford's home but is otherwise similar (i.e., some other wealthy, educated suburb in California). But I'm sure there's also a boost for being from a working-class town in a state that's underrepresented at Stanford. And that boost might well be bigger than the boost one gets for being from Palo Alto.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - Farm93 - 01-21-2013
Two thoughts.
First, I think it says a lot that a thread pondering the state of indifference related to the basketball program has drifted into a non-basketball admissions process discussion. THAT pretty much tells the story sadly.
Second, I am always amazed at how many people in our region want to attend Stanford and have not given any thought to any schools outside of our region. I am constantly in conversations with students and parents about the need to think outside of the region. Most schools (don't know the Duke situation) seek geographic diversity and have no problem getting students from their home region. The family is not going to be able to change their social and economic status, so their best admission equation altering value is geographic diversity. Many Cali kids are afraid of snow, humid climates, etc. If you are from coastal cali then embrace the idea of Dartmouth, Duke, Rice in addition to applying to Stanford.
I would be stunned if Duke needs more suburban Charlotte applicants, but I could imagine that Duke has a strong preference, or even mission, to attract for poor or working class Carolinians over "working class" Bos-Wash I-95 types.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - washingtonismoney - 01-21-2013
I believe there's an explicit requirement in Duke's charter that a certain proportion of their class be North Carolinans, though the internet is nonspecific about it.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - Roberton3 - 01-21-2013
(01-21-2013, 11:25 AM)Farm93 link Wrote:I think it says a lot that a thread pondering the state of indifference related to the basketball program has drifted into a non-basketball admissions process discussion. THAT pretty much tells the story sadly.
Yep. I used to be a brobdingnagian fan of the men's basketball team (starting in the mid-90's, several years before the Final Four trip, so I'm not just a bandwagon fan). But at this point, I care a lot less about the team than I do about college admissions policies. I thought Dawkins was a bad hire and spent a few years hoping they'd realize the mistake and replace him. But at this point, I've pretty much given up and stopped caring very much.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - Roberton3 - 01-21-2013
(01-21-2013, 11:36 AM)Roberton3 link Wrote:Yep. I used to be a brobdingnagian fan of the men's basketball team (starting in the mid-90's, several years before the Final Four trip, so I'm not just a bandwagon fan). But at this point, I care a lot less about the team than I do about college admissions policies. I thought Dawkins was a bad hire and spent a few years hoping they'd realize the mistake and replace him. But at this point, I've pretty much given up and stopped caring very much.
On further reflection, it's not really that I've stopped caring. It's more that I've gotten frustrated enough with the basketball situation that I've stopped wanting to think or talk about it. Not caring would probably be more fun.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - terry - 01-21-2013
Duke's admission preference for students from the Carolinas is not just a rumor. I attended a Duke admissions information session with my daughter on Duke's campus about 12 years ago, and the admissions officer told the group that Duke reserves a percentage of its class for students from North and South Carolina. The admissions officer told us the exact percentage, but I don't remember it. It was between 12% and 15%. I don't know whether this percentage was established by the founding documents or was just an internal policy. Of course, it's possible that things have changed since then.
I see assertions in this thread that elite schools favor local applicants, but I did not hear of such a preference when my kids visited and/or applied to Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Brown, Georgetown, Northwestern, Pomona, Claremont, or Stanford. These schools didn't mention such a preference in their on-campus information sessions or their application materials. In my experience, having helped three kids apply to college, the conventional wisdom among high school students within 20 miles of the Stanford campus seems to be that it's harder for local kids to get into Stanford because so many local kids apply, while Stanford seeks geographic diversity, which helps applicants from outside the area.
It is not surprising that elite schools would have disproportionately large numbers of students from their local areas. The majority of all college students go to school within 100 miles of their homes. I'm sure that a school like Princeton or Penn or Stanford gets a disproportionately high percentage of its applications from the local area. So you would expect to see disproportionately large numbers of students from the same state. That doesn't prove that those schools are giving a preference to local students.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - 82 Card - 01-21-2013
(01-21-2013, 12:09 PM)terry link Wrote:....
It is not surprising that elite schools would have disproportionately large numbers of students from their local areas. The majority of all college students go to school within 100 miles of their homes. I'm sure that a school like Princeton or Penn or Stanford gets a disproportionately high percentage of its applications from the local area. So you would expect to see disproportionately large numbers of students from the same state. That doesn't prove that those schools are giving a preference to local students.
This does not explain the numbers at Penn and Princeton. All of NJ is within 100 miles of Philadelphia. In PA the population conentrations are bifurcated. The eastern population concentration is within 100 miles of both and the western concentration is more than 300 miles from both. If the relevant radius is 50 miles, that might explain the numbers since Princeton is 45 miles closer to the more populous part of NJ. However, when I was growing up in northern NJ, both Princeton and Philadelphia were in another world.
It does seem like the drive to stay home is much stronger in the Bay area than it is in most parts of the country. I suppose that makes sense, given that many of the parents made sacrifices to live in the bay area. In my law school class, about half of the incoming students wanted to stay in the bay area. Only a small portion actually did take jobs locally, at a significantly lower income. The parents that were so driven to live here are going to indoctrinate their kids with the same bias.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - needle - 01-21-2013
I think there's a saying, we're all seven meals from murder? I'd say Stanford men's hoops is only about four straight wins from getting me to care again, fwiw.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - dabigv13 - 01-21-2013
Wow, never heard that saying, but like it a lot.
I'm not sure there's a number of wins in a row that would get me to care, except however many it would take to get the team an NCAA berth. After going to school during the heart of Monty's success, having stormed Maples at least three times, including for Nick Robinson's shot to beat Arizona, and having camped out multiple times to get good seats, it's pretty telling that I could probably only correctly name two or three of the starters on this team.
I thought our postseason run last year was going to be a sign of things on the horizon, but I was wrong. Last year I thought he deserved another year, but it's hard to make that case now.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - TreeWeird - 01-21-2013
(01-21-2013, 12:09 PM)terry link Wrote:Duke's admission preference for students from the Carolinas is not just a rumor. I attended a Duke admissions information session with my daughter on Duke's campus about 12 years ago, and the admissions officer told the group that Duke reserves a percentage of its class for students from North and South Carolina. The admissions officer told us the exact percentage, but I don't remember it. It was between 12% and 15%. I don't know whether this percentage was established by the founding documents or was just an internal policy. Of course, it's possible that things have changed since then.
My son and I attended a Duke admissions session last year before the Stanford game in Durham. They told our group more or less the same thing you were told, explaining it was a requirement the Duke family insisted on.Â
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - yvonne - 01-21-2013
(01-21-2013, 01:31 PM)82 Card link Wrote:However, when I was growing up in northern NJ, both Princeton and Philadelphia were in another world.
It's crazy how a small state like New Jersey divides itself into North and South or North, Central and South, depending on where you are. Burlington County, which is across the river from Philadelphia, considers itself part of South Jersey, even though it's geographically in the center and a long drive from say, Vineland. New Brunswick, an hour away, is considered North Jersey to the people in south of south of around Bordentown, (slightly south of Trenton), but considers itself Central Jersey, a designation unknown south of Trenton. The papers in "South Jersey" don't consider Rutgers part of their coverage areas.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - Spiny_Norman - 01-21-2013
Here is a statement on the sad state of our basketball program from Bill Walton (Stanford Law '84 according to the alumni directory) who called the Stanford-UCLA game one of the six worst ever played.
Quote:"Sadly, [Ted Robinson] did the Stanford-UCLA game and that was one of the six worst basketball games ever played.
You would think with all the incredible talent, all the incredible players, they would be able to do better than 66-60 and do nothing but call timeouts. Oh my gosh, let them run. This is basketball."
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-simers-20130120,0,2697087.column
Ok, Walton was primarily talking about UCLA hoops, but one could extend his comments to Stanford too. Btw, in the same column Walton lists the top 4 coaches in the conference - Sean Miller, Craig Robinson, Lorenzo Romar and Dana Altman. He skips Monty and Dawkins (Howland too).
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - Hank 91 - 01-21-2013
I've been wondering for a while now why I care so little about the men's basketball team. I was on campus from 1987-1991, and it was a great time for the basketball team. My friends and I worshipped Todd Lichti and traded stories about sightings of the other players on campus -- Brian McSweeney at the Phi Delt house, Howard Wright at Meyer, Lichti playing pinball, etc. We didn't have to camp out, but there was a group of us who lined up a few hours early to get the choice center court seats for every home game. There was a dip in the mid 90s, but when things turned in the late 90s, I was just as invested and happily made the trip to San Antonio for the Final Four in '98.
We know what's happened since then. What troubles me the most is not that the team is bad, it's that I don't even care. My DVR dutifully records all programs matching "STANFORD and SPORTS," but I delete men's basketball without a thought. I've read about Chaisson Randle, and I thought he might be the one to lead me back, but it hasn't happened.
Obviously, I'm part of the problem, but I still feel like the program simply lacks personality. There's no one on the team (or coaching staff) that I care about. I don't know when this will change.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - Leftcoast - 01-21-2013
Quote:On further reflection, it's not really that I've stopped caring. It's more that I've gotten frustrated enough with the basketball situation that I've stopped wanting to think or talk about it. Not caring would probably be more fun.
Yup .... Basketball is the cautionary counterpoint to our success with Football.
Given where the program was in the early 2000s you would have to try VERY HARD to screw up Stanford basketball and the Athletic Department was up to that task.Â
I was a hard core fan from the early Montgomery days on. I started my season tickets during the Lichti era, upgraded to loge seating during the Keefe era, cheered through our first NIT championship, attended the Final Four in San Antonio and our subsequent flirtations with basketball's Top 5 rankings. All in all I had season tickets for over 20 years. I have a framed picture of the last game at the old Maples on my wall and can point out where I am in the picture.
I let my tickets go after the second year of the Dawkins era when the losing continued, the style of play mismatched the players, the fun had left the building like a deflating ballon ..... and Dawkins was given an extension.Â
Even that wasn't enough to completely kill interest - we talked about just downsizing our four tix but then the AD forced more ticket price increases coupled with an extremely unpopular PSL plan for the entire lower bowl and redistributed our seats so that I had no idea where basketball friends of 20 years would end up sitting.Â
That's my definition of trying hard to kill a program. The Athletic Dept really, really screwed this one up.Â
I hope for a rebirth at Maples but I worry it may now take an entire rebuilding process and a Harbaugh type hire. We've squandered the program's capital built-up during the Monty era.
(Yeah, I know I'm a little crazy about this!)
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - 82 Card - 01-21-2013
(01-21-2013, 05:15 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:It's crazy how a small state like New Jersey divides itself into North and South or North, Central and South, depending on where you are. Burlington County, which is across the river from Philadelphia, considers itself part of South Jersey, even though it's geographically in the center and a long drive from say, Vineland. New Brunswick, an hour away, is considered North Jersey to the people in south of south of around Bordentown, (slightly south of Trenton), but considers itself Central Jersey, a designation unknown south of Trenton. The papers in "South Jersey" don't consider Rutgers part of their coverage areas.
My direct knowledge of the divisions is a bit dated, having moved to CA in 1979. Growing up in Morris County, things were much more narrowly drawn than north, central and south. Classmates were more likely to know the Poconos and Catskills than to be familiar with some part of the county next door. The Jersey shore was barely on the radar. We thought of the team from Phillipsburgh as being from out of state; we didn't really know where they were because we never played them away. NYC was a dangerous exotic destination known to induce migraines. The first time I ever saw Princeton was taking a back-woods route on my way to Penn.
This narrow view of the world is not unusual. Folks in the east bay of San Francisco tend to have no idea what's in Palo Alto. Folks in the Inner Richmond district of San Francisco often know little about the neighborhood around Kezar and may not even be able to find China Beach (a few blocks away but tucked behind Sea Cliff mansions). When I spent a summer in Los Angeles, I found the locals knew less about getting to other parts of LA than I did.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - Bruce Wang - 01-22-2013
(01-21-2013, 07:47 PM)Leftcoast link Wrote:Yup .... Basketball is the cautionary counterpoint to our success with Football.
The same thought occurred to me. However, the problems with the basketball program result from the coaching transition. Shaw is a much better coach than Johnson, and much less a flight risk.
I thought the current level of success for the football program was all but impossible, and that men's basketball had better chances given that you only need to find 5 intelligent players as opposed to 22. The NBA grabbing players straight from HS worked in Stanford's favor. Nowadays between the one and done phenomenon and UNJ Durham's Coach Mxytlpk grabbing the handful of great student-athletes and combining them with athletes that are not so great students imposes an all but insurmountable barrier to success. The success that Brad Stevens has had at Butler is the only thing that gives me hope.
There was one time before that I thought Stanford football had a chance to win it all and that's when Walsh came back. I figured his celebrity and success could attract incredible recruiting classes (which it did) and then his coaching could put the program over the top. Alas it didn't happen then.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - Kathy - 01-22-2013
(01-21-2013, 11:53 PM)82 Card link Wrote:Folks in the east bay of San Francisco tend to have no idea what's in Palo Alto.This is not true. Both johnnyo53 and I are from the same East Bay town and we both found our way to Palo Alto for college. My neighbors and classmates had a working knowledge of the entire Bay Area. I don't know how they teach geography in New Jersey, but in Contra Costa County our world didn't end at the bridge.
You might want to grab a narrower brush before you make such sweeping generalizations.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - 82 Card - 01-22-2013
(01-22-2013, 08:24 AM)Kathy link Wrote:[quote author=82 Card link=topic=7432.msg57686#msg57686 date=1358837604]This is not true. Both johnnyo53 and I are from the same East Bay town and we both found our way to Palo Alto for college. My neighbors and classmates had a working knowledge of the entire Bay Area. I don't know how they teach geography in New Jersey, but in Contra Costa County our world didn't end at the bridge.
Folks in the east bay of San Francisco tend to have no idea what's in Palo Alto.
You might want to grab a narrower brush before you make such sweeping generalizations.
[/quote]
Sure, people in the east bay know the school is by Palo Alto, but not much more. Folks in NJ also know roughly where Princeton is. Kids in NJ learn the history of each county, just like in California. We also learned about Spanish missions and land grants in California. But that didn't make it part of our day-to-day world. Stanford has an advantage because of the TV presence on local channels. But kids in Contra Costa County are as likely to talk about UCLA as Stanford, unless their parents went to Stanford.
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - Kathy - 01-22-2013
Quote:But kids in Contra Costa County are as likely to talk about UCLA as Stanford
More likely the weenies than UCLA
Re: The sad state of our basketball program - pincemob - 01-22-2013
Ticket prices might need to fall. $30-$44 for upper deck is not competitive. Warriors' upper deck is $20. Cal is $20. Saint Mary's is $15. I'd prefer to support Stanford, but the average fan is going elsewhere.Â
They are doing some interesting things with mini-plans, etc, but in general we might need to go back to 1995 prices, with family plans, student discounts, etc.  Rebuild the pyramid from the bottom-up. The Pac 12 scheduling hurts Stanford disproportionately also: good luck getting people to 6pm weeknight games (Wednesdays?), competing with the NFL on Sundays, etc. Pac 12 scheduling is made for college towns with no traffic and few competing events or interests.Â