Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon

Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - Printable Version

+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon (/thread-5985.html)

Pages: 1 2 3

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - Hulk01 - 11-06-2013

The comment about the Ivies maintaining its standards while Stanford alters them significantly brings to mind an event of a few years ago.

A great friend (whose son I recruited to Stanford, albeit without needing to try hard) had a second son who projected as a possible D-1 defensive back.Â His brother and I notified them both that the second son's 3.05 and 1075 SAT probably doomed his chances of admission to Stanford.Â I assumed that his chances of admissions to any Ivy were worse.

Not at all.Â He was actively recruited by Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (yes, they do recruit.) He was assured admissions by two of the schools and eventually admitted to Harvard, where he played for three years.Â

Several Ivy schools are passionate about football and unwilling to field teams comprised of 3.8 and better studentss if it means losing seasons.Â Unless something has changed since 2011, it appears the Ivies relax their standards considerably and perhaps even as much or more than Stanford.Â

The Ivies and athletics - Mick - 11-06-2013

(11-06-2013, 03:23 PM)Hulk01 link Wrote:The comment about the Ivies maintaining its standards while Stanford alters them significantly brings to mind an event of a few years ago.

A great friend (whose son I recruited to Stanford, albeit without needing to try hard) had a second son who projected as a possible D-1 defensive back.Â His brother and I notified them both that the second son's 3.05 and 1075 SAT probably doomed his chances of admission to Stanford.Â I assumed that his chances of admissions to any Ivy were worse.

Not at all.Â He was actively recruited by Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (yes, they do recruit.) He was assured admissions by two of the schools and eventually admitted to Harvard, where he played for three years.Â

Several Ivy schools are passionate about football and unwilling to field teams comprised of 3.8 and better studentss if it means losing seasons.Â Unless something has changed since 2011, it appears the Ivies relax their standards considerably and perhaps even as much or more than Stanford.

Hulk, my son was recruited to a top Ivy with two other athletes, and there are three other non-recruited players on the team that are in their class this year.Â None of their GPAs were south of 3.9, all of their ACTs/SATs were 32/2160 or higher.Â Two of them had 800 SATs.Â In the same sport in the same year, Stanford recruited an extraordinary athlete whose SAT was more than two standard deviations below those standards, according to a direct relative of his.Â Great guy, certainly smart enough, and the program at Stanford can and has included Olympians whereas my son's program does not.Â My son's team invests about 2/3 as much time as Stanford (near as I can tell), they play a D1 schedule and they're very good, but the athletes don't match up to Stanford's level.Â The Ivies don't give academic scholarships, but they do provide generous financial assistance to those that need it.Â Part of the attraction of the Ivy experience is that the athletes spend less time on sports.

The Ivies have a basic calculation for incoming recruits, the Academic Index.Â It rates incoming student athletes on a 1-240 point basis.Â The 240 points consist of three 80 point sections;

The average Harvard student is around a 225, the average Harvard athlete is around a 210.Â The 210 equates to about a 3.7 unweighted gpa, and a 2040 SAT score.Â

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - DucksAreRoostingInTheTree - 11-06-2013

(11-06-2013, 09:22 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:[quote author=Canard link=topic=8755.msg73648#msg73648 date=1383753679]
You don't really mean this do you?

Richie Incognito is not a product of the Oregon football program. He was in Eugene less than a week, interviewed, vetted, and disinvited. Apparently, that boot doesn't send a message of its own?

Belloti was into so-called "reclamation projects."Â Kelly wasn't and Helfrich is not. Everyone signed by those two have qualified for school and cleared the NCAA clearinghouse. No gray shirts and only a smattering of JC players have been signed too. Your "win at all costs" meme doesn't fit Oregon nearly as well as it does a lot other places you could have chosen.

Just because a player doesn't go to Stanford does it make it the case that he is some sort of thug. Are you suggesting that players like Mariota, Huff, DAT, IEO, are as yet undetected criminals, bullies, or bad teammates simply because they went to Oregon?

Your point, if there was one, is off target this week. We are not the thugs you think we are.

Why so defensive?Â It is as much a fact that my post didn't say Incognito was product of Oregon as much as one that Icognito was welcomed into the Oregon program at some point.Â Nothing was said about any Oregon football player being a criminal, bully, or bad teammate, was there?Â So why this sanctimony?

It isn't possible to argue Oregon values academics and good citizen behavior in its football players more than winning football games.Â And it isn't possible to argue Stanford will make similar compromises.Â

Oregon certainly has its share of role-model student athletes like Marcus Mariota.Â That doesn't change the fact Oregon, and most of Stanford's peers have embraced thug players in the name of winning football games.Â It also doesn't change the fact that there is an anti-intellectual bias in the football culture that Stanford has an opportunity to significantly chip away at as past its time in the wake of the Martin/Incognito incident, by beating Oregon tomorrow.
[/quote]

An interesting argument but I don't think it'll hold water to many people outside the Farm. If Stanford beats Oregon it won't be viewed as anything more than 1 good college football team beating another good team, and vice versa if Oregon beats Stanford. There is no intellectual battle to be won here and no one will associate a win by Stanford with some kind of moral victory involving intellectuals over thugs as it pertains to the NFL, since Incognito has zilch to do with Oregon. More likely they'll associate it with another errant field goal by Maldonado and Stanford's solid defense.

I agree that it probably can't be argued that the Oregon football program values academics over results on the field, but I believe there is merit in arguing that it values good citizenship and character above said results. Take for instance the case of Colt Lyerla. Does anyone really think he 'voluntarily' left the Oregon program? He was a coke snorter, the team found out, and most likely he got the boot while being allowed to frame it as his own personal decision. Also there is Cliff Harris, who was dismissed from the team for bad behavior. Both of these players were NFL talent that squandered their futures with stupid behavior.Â Both were dismissed from Oregon despite the talent they left on the table.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - jacketree - 11-06-2013

(11-06-2013, 02:04 PM)Spiny_Norman link Wrote:There is no other school in the country that requires athletes to submit a full application, then be reviewed and admitted by Admissions before they can be offered a scholarship.

This is simply not true.Â I know for a fact that athletes at the US Naval Academy must submit a full application, then be reviewed and admitted before they are offered an appointment.Â Not to mention a Congressional, Vice Presidential, or Presidential Nomination. And pass a physical test; and a series of medical tests. Plus a background check.

I'm fairly certain this is also true at the other Service Academies.Â Georgia Tech athletes are reviewed and admitted by "The Hill", not the athletic department. There are more than a few "dings" every year due to academics, from the Hill, not the Clearinghouse. I believe not a small number of schools require applications for athletes.Â Yes, just as for Stanford, it is easier for nationally elite athletes to be admitted.

There is enough sanctimony in this thread to choke whatever sanctimony chokes.

Some times a football game is just a football game.Â Well, maybe a football game is always just a football game.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - Oasis - 11-06-2013

(11-06-2013, 02:26 PM)Canard link Wrote:"Our competitors select for athletic ability and hope the academic side will limp in just enough."

If this were truly the case, you'd never lose a recruiting battle to anyone else after making your golden ticket schollie offer. Yet you still do. I am curious to know how those '"lost" players suddenly become cretinous by going elsewhere and wind up simply hoping to limp by academically.

You have fallen into the fallacy of composition. The point of comparison is not the individual recruit but the overall programs.Â Take the whole team.Â Ask whether the players would be at good colleges if they weren't athletes.Â I would venture to say that Stanford's whole team would.Â Not all of them would be at Stanford, Princeton or Yale (some would) but they'd all be in a serious academic place.Â In other words, take away Andrew Luck's ability to play quarterback and you still have the high school valedictorian.Â Now do that globally for our whole team and you still have serious to excellent students. Take away your guys' football ability and what've you got?

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - Canard - 11-06-2013

(11-06-2013, 06:55 PM)Oasis link Wrote:[quote author=Canard link=topic=8755.msg73669#msg73669 date=1383773171]
"Our competitors select for athletic ability and hope the academic side will limp in just enough."

If this were truly the case, you'd never lose a recruiting battle to anyone else after making your golden ticket schollie offer. Yet you still do. I am curious to know how those '"lost" players suddenly become cretinous by going elsewhere and wind up simply hoping to limp by academically.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - FarmBoy - 11-06-2013

Quote:students who were offered by Stanford and who went to Oregon for reasons of their own.

The last intelligence test for admission to Stanford: the decision to accept. It's a test 100% predictive powers.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - fullmetal - 11-06-2013

How many Oregon players were offered by Stanford?

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - OutsiderFan - 11-07-2013

There probably was a bit of conflation to the original post in this thread. I tried to distill the motivation for it by pointing out the different things that inspired it, but the main point was this:

The Jonathan Martin incident has led to a completely outrageous groupthink among many NFL people that maybe Stanford football players might somehow be too soft for the NFL.Â They are not saying Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Georgia Tech, Rice, the Ivies, military academies, or even the generic "academically or intellectually oriented football player," no, they are singling out Stanford.

This prevailing thinking isn't bothersome because all Stanford football players might be subject to more scrutiny because Martin went to Stanford, as ridiculous as that is.Â The reason it pisses me off is because the evidence shows few teams are as physically and mentally tough as Stanford football teams comprised of the same players who are now going to be questioned.

The football culture is basically saying it would rather build teams composed of uneducated, socially unadjusted "dumb jocks" motivated by anger, who can't control their emotions, than we'll-rounded, self-motivated and socially well-adjusted ones who have proven they can be just as physically and probably more mentally tough than the seemingly preferred "dumb jocks."

Not only is this advocating for something as a solution that isn't the best available one according to hard evidence (my greatest source of frustration as a human being), this mentality is also potentially exacerbating a bias against intellectualism already prevalent in society.Â Given how influential sports and the athletes who play them are, one of the places the society can be influenced to value education and intellectualism more is through sports.

Jim Harbaugh, David Shaw, and the Stanford community have worked their tails off, and through the power of ideas, pulling from the smallest talent pool of any of its peer football playing schools, established Stanford football as what it is today.Â Now, we have NFL people basically questioning it all, and even potentially putting Stanford in a defensive position on the recruiting trail, when it is 40-6 in its last 46 games played?

No NFL scouts are questioning Oregon player toughness or suggesting that because they went to Oregon they need more scrutiny to make sure they are tough enough for the NFL. So why the hell should Stanford players be questioned?Â This game IS a proxy battle of ideas.Â The NFL people don't give Stanford a chance against Oregon, and if Oregon wins, they have no reason to question their skepticism of Stanford football players.Â But if Stanford wins, they do.Â Given the implications that has, a Stanford win has the potential to influence positive changes in the football culture.Â And it may be a stretch, but it seems such an outcome can also in turn influence the greater society or at least set conditions for a positive evolutionary step forward.

At a time when a former Stanford player who helped establish Stanford football as physically and mentally tough is having his toughness questioned because he went to Stanford, there is no better possible way for the Stanford football community to help him than by beating the Oregon Ducks tonight.Â If Stanford does win, we will be hearing a lot less questioning of Martin's toughness, and probably see a big uptick in transcript requests for college football players from NFL people.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - DucksAreRoostingInTheTree - 11-07-2013

(11-07-2013, 03:27 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:No NFL scouts are questioning Oregon player toughness or suggesting that because they went to Oregon they need more scrutiny to make sure they are tough enough for the NFL. So why the hell should Stanford players be questioned?Â This game IS a proxy battle of ideas.Â The NFL people don't give Stanford a chance against Oregon, and if Oregon wins, they have no reason to question their skepticism of Stanford football players.Â But if Stanford wins, they do.Â Given the implications that has, a Stanford win has the potential to influence positive changes in the football culture.Â And it may be a stretch, but it seems such an outcome can also in turn influence the greater society or at least set conditions for a positive evolutionary step forward.

At a time when a former Stanford player who helped establish Stanford football as physically and mentally tough is having his toughness questioned because he went to Stanford, there is no better possible way for the Stanford football community to help him than by beating the Oregon Ducks tonight.Â If Stanford does win, we will be hearing a lot less questioning of Martin's toughness, see a big uptick in transcript requests of college football players from NFL people.

I love and appreciate the ingenuity of your argument. I would give you more than 1 plus for this post for that reason alone. However I think you have allowed the existence our rivalry (yes, it has become a rivalry, and in the nation's eyes, it is a more important rivalry than Stanford vs. California or Oregon vs Oregon St/Washington) to cloud the argument. Oregon is not the faceless enemy that represents the 'evil' you have described and with you wish to battle. It is your primary rival, and in this post you have turned it into the statue if you will, of the injustice you feel is being done to your team vis a vis this NFL debacle. If Stanford happens to win this game, you will prove only that you continue to be a great team (no one in their right mind even questions this, and I don't know of anyone who thinks Stanford is soft; rather, they are the epitome of tough, punch you in the mouth, ground and pound football reminiscent of the SEC). You have already proven you are tough. No one doubts this. As an Oregon fan, I am flattered by your esteem of us, and I consider it proof that the seeds of a great rivalry have taken root and are beginning to sprout.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - OutsiderFan - 11-07-2013

Canard,

Don't flatter yourself too much.Â Though I don't have any love for Oregon's style or M.O., that doesn't diminish my respect of the team and program in terms of its ability to win.

That said, I would be saying the same thing about this game being a proxy battle of ideas if Stanford were playing Alabama or Florida State instead of Oregon, given the Martin situation and its fallout. It seems until the unconventional idea unseats the established one that has always been on top as the best, there will always be reason to doubt the contrarian's approach.Â Right now, Oregon is considered to be just as close to the best as anyone in the college football world.Â

So though as a fan, in terms of standings and bragging rights, I hope Oregon loses, bit in the greater war of ideas I see this game being a proxy for, Oregon is a nameless, faceless opponent for Stanford.Â In other words, to me, and the way I see the world, tonight's game is bigger than just one game.Â Last year it was for bragging rights.Â This year it is personal, and it has nothing to do with Oregon.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - The Speed of Quack - 11-07-2013

I mean no disrespect but I think that you're reading way too much into this.Â Stanford is known for for playing tough and physical football, anyone that thinks otherwise doesn't know much about football.Â Along the same lines anyone that thinks Martin not lashing out is anything but an example of mental toughness doesn't know much about mental toughness, the easy thing to do would be to lash out especially since he's obviously no weakling.

Personally I think that Oregon players are often underrated by nfl scouts because the defense is overlooked and off. players are seen as system players but that might just be my perception.Â I'm not going to argue academics with a Stanford fan other than to say that Oregon has made a point of avoiding academically questionable recruits for a number of years now.

I respect Stanford football and I like that much like Oregon there is a clear vision of what they want to be and they try to execute it to the best of their ability(even if those vision are polar opposites).Â I see no reason to turn this into some sort of holy war when it's already the biggest game outside of the championship game, at least in my biased opinion.

I apologize for any spelling/grammar/rambling, I can't sleep and I've had a few beer(Ninkasi Oatmeal Stout).Â I normally don't post on opponents forums and win or lose you probably won't see me back here.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - Canard - 11-07-2013

(11-07-2013, 04:36 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:Canard,

Don't flatter yourself too much.Â Though I don't have any love for Oregon's style or M.O., that doesn't diminish my respect of the team and program in terms of its ability to win.

That said, I would be saying the same thing about this game being a proxy battle of ideas if Stanford were playing Alabama or Florida State instead of Oregon, given the Martin situation and its fallout. It seems until the unconventional idea unseats the established one that has always been on top as the best, there will always be reason to doubt the contrarian's approach.Â Right now, Oregon is considered to be just as close to the best as anyone in the college football world.Â

So though as a fan, in terms of standings and bragging rights, I hope Oregon loses, bit in the greater war of ideas I see this game being a proxy for, Oregon is a nameless, faceless opponent for Stanford.Â In other words, to me, and the way I see the world, tonight's game is bigger than just one game.Â Last year it was for bragging rights.Â This year it is personal, and it has nothing to do with Oregon.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - OutsiderFan - 11-07-2013

(11-07-2013, 08:09 AM)Canard link Wrote:[quote author=OutsiderFan link=topic=8755.msg73719#msg73719 date=1383824169]
Canard,

Don't flatter yourself too much.Â Though I don't have any love for Oregon's style or M.O., that doesn't diminish my respect of the team and program in terms of its ability to win.

That said, I would be saying the same thing about this game being a proxy battle of ideas if Stanford were playing Alabama or Florida State instead of Oregon, given the Martin situation and its fallout. It seems until the unconventional idea unseats the established one that has always been on top as the best, there will always be reason to doubt the contrarian's approach.Â Right now, Oregon is considered to be just as close to the best as anyone in the college football world.Â

So though as a fan, in terms of standings and bragging rights, I hope Oregon loses, bit in the greater war of ideas I see this game being a proxy for, Oregon is a nameless, faceless opponent for Stanford.Â In other words, to me, and the way I see the world, tonight's game is bigger than just one game.Â Last year it was for bragging rights.Â This year it is personal, and it has nothing to do with Oregon.

There it is again. Regardless of whether it is opportunism, you do have Oregon cast as the representative of "anti-intellectualism" in some Manichean bubble that you have developed between Martin and the Dolphins, or the larger NFL, and between Stanford and its competitors.

Reality isn't that simplistic. Tonight's game will not be freighted with any of the metaphysical baggage you are portering.
[/quote]

No, I have the NFL cast as anti-intellectual, and singling out Stanford for being intellectual, based on actual statements by NFL personnel people this week.Â If Oregon was perceived in the same light as Stanford, wouldn't those same NFL people be questioning Oregon's ability to produce players tough enough for the NFL?

Like I said before, don't flatter yourself or your Ducks.Â It isn't about them.Â It's about Stanford.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - Canard - 11-07-2013

For my part, any front offices taking Martin's unique circumstances and applying them to Stanford players generally, who then miss out on some great players in the draft because of their ignorance, deserve to build losing teams. It shouldn't escape notice that Chip Kelly drafted Ertz, who was described as a tough competitor. The level of conditioning demanded by Chip's offensive approach cannot be maintained by soft quitters.

Though not totally similar, our offensive players are often dismissed by NFL scouts and such as mere byproducts of a system, no matter how much their individual abilities outshine the typical production of lesser talents from the same system. Biases against come in all manner of distastes.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - Hulk01 - 11-07-2013

Each year, Stanford fans would love to beat the toughest teams on the schedule and the games that attract national attention.Â For that reason alone, Oregon has become a big game.

But if Oregon ever flags, no one here will care.Â We will want to win every game and particularly those games with the highest profiles.Â If that's Oregon, great.Â But it could as easily be Colorado, Washington (whose fans we dislike/loathe), or Arizona.

USC always will matter.Â Cal will matter to many fans and not at all to others.Â UCLA will matter a lot and in proportion to their success in that year.Â

There is nothing aspirational about Oregon football or the school to any Stanford student, graduate, or fan.Â Some at Stanford are merely neutra on this subject.Â Others, and particularly those who recall the obscene incidents involving Kevin Love and Damon Stoudamire,Â feel more strongly.Â The handful of us who recall the incidents involving Kevin's dad, Dick Harter, and Mark Barwig and their mauling of UCLA feel even less regard for the school--a school that I once attended.

I continue to have dozens of friends at the school.Â I like them all and love several.Â It is revealing that several of them are more dismissive of the team's football program than I am.Â Oregon's coaches and players have made enemies within and without.Â

Perhaps the new group will be better.Â But if that is the case, the Wlllie Lyles and Cole Lyerla episodes certainly don't suggest that.

At least to me, Oregon represents little more than Phil Knight's successful effort to bring national class college sports to his beloved state.Â He has succeeded but perhaps not in all the ways that he wished and hoped.Â Oregon wins but it seems to come at a price, most notably the value of its own reputation.Â I hope they one day start playing college football again instead of their version of professional football.Â But they tried that and failed, so I suspect the mess is here to stay.Â

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - PrinceLightfoot - 11-07-2013

I have been withholding commentary regarding admissions for a long time because I do not want to betray the confidence of a close friend who is one of the assistant deans of admission. The following statement is not theory and is general enough not to reveal anything: EVERY applicant must pass the academic bar before any other accomplishments or abilities are weighed into the ultimate decision. Coaches have absolutely no sway BEFORE the academic assessment has concluded that the applicant is admissible.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - Bruce Wang - 11-07-2013

If SpeedofQuack comes back, he/she needs to change his/her handle to the Quackery of Speed.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - SUBuddha - 11-08-2013

(11-07-2013, 05:56 PM)PrinceLightfoot link Wrote:I have been withholding commentary regarding admissions for a long time because I do not want to betray the confidence of a close friend who is one of the assistant deans of admission. The following statement is not theory and is general enough not to reveal anything: EVERY applicant must pass the academic bar before any other accomplishments or abilities are weighed into the ultimate decision. Coaches have absolutely no sway BEFORE the academic assessment has concluded that the applicant is admissible.

I have heard the same thing from a friend or two on the coaching staff. I am proud of the requirements our athletes must meet.

Re: Why the Football World Needs Stanford to Beat Oregon - jacketree - 11-08-2013

Props to Outsider Fan

From this morning's Chron ("Duck Dynasty Lost on Cardinal")

Quote:The BCS title game comes back into play for the Cardinal now, and a second straight Rose Bowl appearance wouldn't be a bad consolation prize.

Just as importantly to the players, their national identity is secure. Which is to say, don't mess with these guys. There isn't a physically tougher team in the land, and that's an unassailable source of pride, not to mention every coach's dream.

-Bruce Jenkins, University of California Class of ?

If I could invent a time machine, I'd go back to November 8, 2006 and post this for y'all.Â What would your response have been?