Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - Printable Version
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Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - needle - 06-03-2015
Quote: I'm not sure, but I think my kids all checked the "decline to identify" box on their college applications, just on general principles
I still feel guilty for checking the box as an underrepresented minority when I knew full well that it would give me an advantage as far as getting into Stanford.
But I reasoned that if Stanford wants this sort of information to put together a diverse class, it's really not wrong to check the box. In a way, I would be helping the university reach a goal of racial/ethnic diversity that is, basically, I believe, a good goal.
There's "white guilt," I suppose, and there's very definitely "affirmative action guilt." EDIT: My "guilt" is a kinda-sorta-but-not-really kind, fyi, and I would encourage anyone who fits into the category of underrepresented minority to check that box when applying to Stanford (or any college).
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - 81alum - 06-04-2015
(06-03-2015, 10:12 PM)needle link Wrote:I do believe that a diverse student body is important for enhancing the quality of education--and so I firmly support certain kinds of affirmative action for college admissions. A good admissions process looks far beyond race or ethnicity, though, and looks to admit students who have genuinely diverse backgrounds and experiences. Race and ethnicity are often aligned with diverse social and economic experiences, but not always. On the other hand, I probably got admitted in part because I was from Idaho, and Stanford quite definitely looks for geographic distribution. That's a form of affirmative action too. Perhaps I should feel guilty about taking a slot away from a more qualified California student!Quote: I'm not sure, but I think my kids all checked the "decline to identify" box on their college applications, just on general principles
I still feel guilty for checking the box as an underrepresented minority when I knew full well that it would give me an advantage as far as getting into Stanford.
But I reasoned that if Stanford wants this sort of information to put together a diverse class, it's really not wrong to check the box. In a way, I would be helping the university reach a goal of racial/ethnic diversity that is, basically, I believe, a good goal.
There's "white guilt," I suppose, and there's very definitely "affirmative action guilt." EDIT: My "guilt" is a kinda-sorta-but-not-really kind, fyi, and I would encourage anyone who fits into the category of underrepresented minority to check that box when applying to Stanford (or any college).
Actually, I joke about it now, but as a frosh I definitely felt a little out-of-place, coming from the sticks, compared with the much more sophisticated and worldly kids who had traveled, knew the Bay Area, had attended prestigious prep schools, etc. A common phenomena for Stanford frosh is to feel inferior to their peers, and I certainly had my version of that.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - Mick - 06-04-2015
(06-03-2015, 06:03 PM)ferrari link Wrote:[quote author=Mick link=topic=12214.msg120014#msg120014 date=1433378134]
[quote author=CornFed link=topic=12214.msg120013#msg120013 date=1433377932]
I'm only just learning this stuff, Mick, but I think the use of the phrase "your kind" is a micro-aggression. So, I think, my Viking blood is boiling. However, if I have misinterpreted this micro-aggression stuff, well, then, "Never mind".
Right back 'atcha. It was Ferrari who made the comment, not me fair self, which makes my Irish side ask "Why do I fight?"
[/quote]
You, Irish, and the Viking fight. This Dago will take on the loser.
[/quote]
That's Paddy to you, sir.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - yvonne - 06-04-2015
This article suggests that Asian students should appear "less Asian." To me, it seems that what the consultants are suggesting is not that, but that the students should be more well-rounded and less stereotypical.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/2015/06/01/college-counselors-advise-some-asian-students-appear-less-asian/Ew7g4JiQMiqYNQlIwqEIuO/story.html
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - Bruce Wang - 06-05-2015
(06-04-2015, 11:45 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:This article suggests that Asian students should appear "less Asian." To me, it seems that what the consultants are suggesting is not that, but that the students should be more well-rounded and less stereotypical
I've been wondering why all those Asian sisters get the eyelid surgery.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - Papa John - 06-05-2015
Wish I could give Publius a +1 for that comeback.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - fullmetal - 06-05-2015
Plastic surgery is a booming industry in South Korea.
But the concept of a "less stereotypical" Asian speaks to the cultural goals--many Asian parents want their kids to go to good schools, and university admission becomes the one shining goal of these kids' lives, saying nothing about what the kids want to accomplish in life or what kind of people they want to become. (I experienced this first hand in no small degree.)
I do think that it's important to find people who are motivated by something in life other than mere university admissions. One doesn't get very far in life if university admissions are all your K-12 years are aimed at.Â
I still think Michael's essays must have been a bit transparent about that. Without the whole application, we can't tell whether he would have indeed been a fit or competitive within the student body at these top schools.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - CrazedZooChimp - 06-05-2015
(06-04-2015, 11:45 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:This article suggests that Asian students should appear "less Asian." To me, it seems that what the consultants are suggesting is not that, but that the students should be more well-rounded and less stereotypical.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/2015/06/01/college-counselors-advise-some-asian-students-appear-less-asian/Ew7g4JiQMiqYNQlIwqEIuO/story.html
My first thought when reading the original article was that the kid sounded like a stereotype in an after school special, and that none of his extra curriculars would make him stand out at all from the other thousands of applicants.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - Mick - 06-05-2015
(06-03-2015, 10:12 PM)needle link Wrote:Quote: I'm not sure, but I think my kids all checked the "decline to identify" box on their college applications, just on general principles
I still feel guilty for checking the box as an underrepresented minority when I knew full well that it would give me an advantage as far as getting into Stanford.
But I reasoned that if Stanford wants this sort of information to put together a diverse class, it's really not wrong to check the box. In a way, I would be helping the university reach a goal of racial/ethnic diversity that is, basically, I believe, a good goal.
There's "white guilt," I suppose, and there's very definitely "affirmative action guilt." EDIT: My "guilt" is a kinda-sorta-but-not-really kind, fyi, and I would encourage anyone who fits into the category of underrepresented minority to check that box when applying to Stanford (or any college).
Decades after I checked the "white" ethnicity box on my application to Stanford (didn't get in, accepted to SCU's honors program, only two places I applied), my uncles let me know that my maternal grandfather's family was originally from Africa, then emigrated to France (Lyon) then to Mexico (Guadalajara) then to San Francisco (Marina District) over a period of about 30 years. Perhaps I should reapply...
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - yvonne - 06-05-2015
I have a white friend from Namibia who accurately describes himself as African American.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - Mick - 06-05-2015
(06-05-2015, 04:18 PM)ferrari link Wrote:[quote author=Mick link=topic=12214.msg120112#msg120112 date=1433529349]
[quote author=needle link=topic=12214.msg120027#msg120027 date=1433394746]
Quote: I'm not sure, but I think my kids all checked the "decline to identify" box on their college applications, just on general principles
I still feel guilty for checking the box as an underrepresented minority when I knew full well that it would give me an advantage as far as getting into Stanford.
But I reasoned that if Stanford wants this sort of information to put together a diverse class, it's really not wrong to check the box. In a way, I would be helping the university reach a goal of racial/ethnic diversity that is, basically, I believe, a good goal.
There's "white guilt," I suppose, and there's very definitely "affirmative action guilt." EDIT: My "guilt" is a kinda-sorta-but-not-really kind, fyi, and I would encourage anyone who fits into the category of underrepresented minority to check that box when applying to Stanford (or any college).
Decades after I checked the "white" ethnicity box on my application to Stanford (didn't get in, accepted to SCU's honors program, only two places I applied), my uncles let me know that my maternal grandfather's family was originally from Africa, then emigrated to France (Lyon) then to Mexico (Guadalajara) then to San Francisco (Marina District) over a period of about 30 years. Perhaps I should reapply...
[/quote]
Mick, you need to know a lot more before you can honestly change that mark. Although suggestive, immigrating from Africa does not automatically indicate skin tone.
[/quote]
I thought it was obvious I was kidding. Guess not. Next time I'll add :P :-* :-* :-\ ;D :D :D :D 8) ??? :P :P :P :P :P
EDIT: Oh wait, you were kidding too. Weren't you?
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - jacketree - 06-05-2015
What about white South Africans? Aren't they African? (Maybe the box say "black"?)
One of my business partners went back to school for a MSCE years ago, and since she wanted to keep working for us part time, applied only to Stanford and UCB. She got into both. Stanford offered her a full scholarship. She called about the details and was thinking she might take it. Somehow they thought she was black. She assured them she was not and didn't check the black box. (She's Irish if it matters.) Stanford mulled it over and decided to honor the scholarship since it was their mistake. Fine, my partner said, but if you are that reluctant about it, I will pay my own way over in Berkeley, which she did.
In terms of the OP and high achieving kids and their families getting miffed about not getting in, I have to admire both of my children's respective high school principals who both unequivocally told their charges that getting into a prestigious university is not the goal; the goal is putting our children in a good situation for them as individuals within the context of what a family could afford, whatever that may be. It might not be the dream school or the "best" school, but well, welcome to life. My son's principal told us they were working very diligently to instill the trait of resilience in each student, so their entire self-worth is not defined by whether Georgetown believes they are worthy of admission.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - yvonne - 06-05-2015
(06-05-2015, 05:37 PM)jacketree link Wrote:What about white South Africans? Aren't they African? (Maybe the box say "black"?)
One of my business partners went back to school for a MSCE years ago, and since she wanted to keep working for us part time, applied only to Stanford and UCB. She got into both. Stanford offered her a full scholarship. She called about the details and was thinking she might take it. Somehow they thought she was black. She assured them she was not and didn't check the black box. (She's Irish if it matters.) Stanford mulled it over and decided to honor the scholarship since it was their mistake. Fine, my partner said, but if you are that reluctant about it, I will pay my own way over in Berkeley, which she did.
In terms of the OP and high achieving kids and their families getting miffed about not getting in, I have to admire both of my children's respective high school principals who both unequivocally told their charges that getting into a prestigious university is not the goal; the goal is putting our children in a good situation for them as individuals within the context of what a family could afford, whatever that may be. It might not be the dream school or the "best" school, but well, welcome to life. My son's principal told us they were working very diligently to instill the trait of resilience in each student, so their entire self-worth is not defined by whether Georgetown believes they are worthy of admission.
Irish isn't a color, either.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - 97fan - 06-05-2015
My wife is Taiwanese American and I'm white, and we recently had our first child. For a variety of reasons, we decided to give our daughter my wife's last name, rather than mine. This led several of our Asian American friends to voice concern that college admissions will be more difficult for her since she has my wife's last name. I think they're probably right about this, but it also seems sad and myopic to let that be a factor in the name you give your child.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - BostonCard - 06-05-2015
Speaking of assuming things based on names. My wife's friend and former co-worker is a Blonde-haired, blue eyed Greek named Jennifer with an appropriately Greek sounding maiden name. She married a Chinese-American and took his (Chinese) surname, leading to much hilarity when someone makes the mistaken assumption that Jennifer [Chinese surname] is of Asian decent and a blonde haired, blue eyed Greek shows up.
BCÂ
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - jacketree - 06-05-2015
Hey, Irish is three colors!
But good point Yvonne - she's white with a very Irish surname. She was surprised Stanford thought she was black based on that, but why can't someone with an Irish surname be black, right? It was a straight up mistake by Stanford; I don't know if that scholarship was intended to get more minority women into engineering. By the way our engineering firm is now 45% female, which is pretty good compared to the dark ages when I started and Mars needed women. So something is working better at the K-12, undergrad and grad levels.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - fullmetal - 06-05-2015
Interesting that "ceilings" traditionally exist to prevent diversity, but this "ceiling" is perceived to exist in service of diversity.
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - CTcard - 06-05-2015
(06-03-2015, 05:26 PM)Mick link Wrote:Here's the actual table from http://www.cpec.ca.gov/StudentData/DiversityReport.ASP:
[/td][/tr][/table]
Recipients
(Undergraduate)
Population
18 to 24** Population numbers for Asian/Pacific Islander include Filipino. Data Generated on Wednesday, June 03, 2015 at 5:01:36 PM
Have missed most of this thread while off in China with very limited internet access. The issue affects my family and my professional life, so have thought about it a lot.
I think that Stanford considers itself more of a national university than a California university. So Stanford probably considers national numbers more relevant.
Trying to get consistent numbers for racial demographics is difficult, with all sorts of ambiguities in definitions, what you are going to count, how people respond to surveys, etc. Here's an attempt to flesh out some numbers for the USA and Stanford - using a wikipedia article taken from the 2010 census and Stanford's reported common data set (required by Dept of Education). The comparisons are imperfect.
15-19 year olds:
[White, non-Hispanic 44.23%]* [estimates - see below]
[Hispanic          23.2%]*
White             66.35%
Black             15.64%
Asian              4.34%
Native American      1.2%
Pacific Islander       0.21%
Mixed             12.27%
Stanford must report related numbers in the "common data set". In 2014-15 the numbers were:
White (non-Hispanic) 37.5%
Hispanic          16.1%
[White, approx     52.8% ]*  Â
Black             5.9%
Asian             19.8%
Native American     1.1%
Pacific Islander      0.4%
Mixed            10.7%
Unknown           0.3%
So, IF Stanford's goal is to have a student distribution that matches the nation by these broad categories, then only Asians are over-represented and every other group is under-represented - Blacks the most.
Any system you devise to try to make your university demographics more like the country than other admissions measures would give you, by definition gives preference to some and anti-preference (i.e. discrimination) to others. Those hurt the most are going to be those with the otherwise best measures. At the moment that's Asian-Americans.Â
Now Stanford and it's brethren quite explicitly refuse to define just what measures are used for admissions in a quantitative manner - partly because they don't have such a quantitative approach and partly to avoid facing this issue head on - and almost certainly with an eye towards law suits as well.
So yeah, Stanford discriminates against Asian-Americans if you believe GPA and test scores should dominate admissions decisions. Stanford probably discriminates against Asian-Americans if you think everything but racial identity should be considered in admission, though this would be impossible to explicitly determine. But one way or another, discriminating against somebody is the cost of affirmative action. That's the argument against affirmative action - and at the least should be a warning to use it carefully.
---------------------
*[Given that Hispanics are not a racial group, and thus don't factor into these census categories, these first two categories are approximated to match the common data set for universities. Apparently 95% of hispanics are white by the designation above. Hispanics are something like 1/3 of the whites in the country as a whole, but I cannot find a number that exactly corresponds to the 15-19 year old category above. If both the 1/3 and 95% were to hold, then that would make Hispanics about 23.2%. ]
Re: Does Stanford have a Bamboo Ceiling? - fullmetal - 06-06-2015
An interesting article: http://news.yahoo.com/california-student-accepted-every-ivy-league-school-185723470.html
I'm not sure the kid made the right choice. Just wait til his first winter.