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RE: NBA Discussion - BostonCard - 02-06-2023
The Nets just unloaded Kyrie Irving, and they have to figure out whether they are going to rebuild around Durant or unload Durant and to a complete rebuild.
https://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=35600324
Based on that, it sounds like the Nets might be inclined to buy. They are, after all, in 4th place in the East, with a 4-game cushion to the play-in round and an 8-game cushion to the lottery. Moreover, with the picks they got for Irving, they may be able to put together a nice package to get Durant some support to enable them to win now.
BC
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 02-07-2023
(02-06-2023, 03:38 PM)TrumpCard Wrote:(02-06-2023, 03:09 PM)Mick Wrote: Could be. But they won two NBA championships with Durant. If the Warriors packaged Wiseman, Moody and either Wiggins or Draymond for Durant, then maybe you have something.
Why would the Nets trade a first team all-NBA player in return for that package? A team can't contend without a star (or two), and these proposed trades would leave the Nets star-less. If the Nets are going to blow up the team and give up on contending, they should do it the right way, like OKC is doing, not by taking a role player in or past his prime like Wiggins or Dray.
First, Durant is 34. He has a limited shelf life. Second, they traded Kyrie. They might want to break apart the team, particularly if Durant asks to be traded. He went there because of Kyrie (in part) in the first place.
Second, you know Wiggins is a 27 year old starter, seven years younger than Durant and an All Star, right? I don't think I'd define him as a role player. And Draymond is one of a kind. Throw in Wiseman, who has an incredible amount of potential, and Moody -- maybe that's who you meant when you said role player -- and I think that's a useful trade...especially if Durant wants out. Who wants a 34 year old? The Warriors, but not too many others, I don't think.
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 02-07-2023
(02-07-2023, 03:49 PM)Mick Wrote: First, Durant is 34. He has a limited shelf life. Second, they traded Kyrie. They might want to break apart the team, particularly if Durant asks to be traded. He went there because of Kyrie (in part) in the first place.
The Nets traded their '24 and '26 picks to the Rockets, so the team is in a really bad position to rebuild. Finishing in the lottery just gives high picks to another team. The Nets also are acting like are buyers, not sellers, which is why they took DFS and Dinwiddie in the Dallas deal. The team now has Durant, Curry, Harris, Warren, O'Neale, Dinwiddie, and DFS all of whom are at least 29. If they trade Durant, the team still would need a fire sale of large proportions to get draft picks or young prospects for some of those other guys. Not impossible, but again, if that's the direction they were going, why bring in two guys who are 29?
(02-07-2023, 03:49 PM)Mick Wrote: Second, you know Wiggins is a 27 year old starter, seven years younger than Durant and an All Star, right? I don't think I'd define him as a role player. And Draymond is one of a kind. Throw in Wiseman, who has an incredible amount of potential, and Moody -- maybe that's who you meant when you said role player -- and I think that's a useful trade...especially if Durant wants out. Who wants a 34 year old? The Warriors, but not too many others, I don't think.
But let's assume you're right that a big fire sale is coming.
First, I think we should all agree that Durant would be an enormous draw in the trade market. He's an all NBA player. Any team looking for a title in the next couple of years would pay handsomely with future draft picks, some of which probably would be for seasons after Durant is retired (so the picks might not be low first rounders).
Second, the assets the Warriors are hypothetically offering here don't cut it. The key problem is that this trade gives the Nets zero draft picks (for a team already short two picks). It gives one young player with a low ceiling, which is worth something, but isn't an ideal asset for a rebuild. Wiseman isn't a bad asset for a rebuilding team because he has upside. Aside from Wiseman's injury history, however, consider that he may be redundant because the Nets' best young asset is Claxton, another center who can't shoot from outside. Not to mention Simmons can't shoot. If the main value of the trade has to come from a player already at, or past, his peak, that's the wrong type of return for a rebuilding team. So Draymond is a clear "no." Wiggins is slightly more plausible because he's still in his prime, but I fail to see a path for the Nets to "rebuild" when they'd have 2 first rounders over the next 4 drafts and the team's two (or arguably three) best young players are 6'10"+ with little or no outside shooting ability.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 02-08-2023
(02-07-2023, 06:39 PM)TrumpCard Wrote:(02-07-2023, 03:49 PM)Mick Wrote: First, Durant is 34. He has a limited shelf life. Second, they traded Kyrie. They might want to break apart the team, particularly if Durant asks to be traded. He went there because of Kyrie (in part) in the first place.
The Nets traded their '24 and '26 picks to the Rockets, so the team is in a really bad position to rebuild. Finishing in the lottery just gives high picks to another team. The Nets also are acting like are buyers, not sellers, which is why they took DFS and Dinwiddie in the Dallas deal. The team now has Durant, Curry, Harris, Warren, O'Neale, Dinwiddie, and DFS all of whom are at least 29. If they trade Durant, the team still would need a fire sale of large proportions to get draft picks or young prospects for some of those other guys. Not impossible, but again, if that's the direction they were going, why bring in two guys who are 29?
(02-07-2023, 03:49 PM)Mick Wrote: Second, you know Wiggins is a 27 year old starter, seven years younger than Durant and an All Star, right? I don't think I'd define him as a role player. And Draymond is one of a kind. Throw in Wiseman, who has an incredible amount of potential, and Moody -- maybe that's who you meant when you said role player -- and I think that's a useful trade...especially if Durant wants out. Who wants a 34 year old? The Warriors, but not too many others, I don't think.
But let's assume you're right that a big fire sale is coming.
First, I think we should all agree that Durant would be an enormous draw in the trade market. He's an all NBA player. Any team looking for a title in the next couple of years would pay handsomely with future draft picks, some of which probably would be for seasons after Durant is retired (so the picks might not be low first rounders).
Second, the assets the Warriors are hypothetically offering here don't cut it. The key problem is that this trade gives the Nets zero draft picks (for a team already short two picks). It gives one young player with a low ceiling, which is worth something, but isn't an ideal asset for a rebuild. Wiseman isn't a bad asset for a rebuilding team because he has upside. Aside from Wiseman's injury history, however, consider that he may be redundant because the Nets' best young asset is Claxton, another center who can't shoot from outside. Not to mention Simmons can't shoot. If the main value of the trade has to come from a player already at, or past, his peak, that's the wrong type of return for a rebuilding team. So Draymond is a clear "no." Wiggins is slightly more plausible because he's still in his prime, but I fail to see a path for the Nets to "rebuild" when they'd have 2 first rounders over the next 4 drafts and the team's two (or arguably three) best young players are 6'10"+ with little or no outside shooting ability.
Actually Wiggins can't be traded because he signed his extension less than six months ago. So the Warriors should, and will just stand pat. What's more interesting to me at this point anyway, is whether they re-sign Bob Myers.
Warriors GM Bob Myers’s Future With Franchise Uncertain Amid Contract Situation, per Report - Sports Illustrated
Why the Warriors are in danger of losing Bob Myers - The Athletic
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 02-09-2023
Well, well, well... Kevin Durant traded to the Phoenix Suns while you were sleeping.
The Lakers also somehow found someone dumb enough to take Russell Westbrook off their hands, and they got DeAngelo Russell and Jarred Vanderbilt back in return. Seems like not a lot for a just a first round pick, even if unprotected. This deal demonstrates why I see the Lakers now finishing ahead of the Warriors, though ESPN reported the LAL have the toughest schedule in the WC the rest of the way.
The Warriors seem to have become an also ran very quickly. They need another wing or inside defender. Maybe they can pry Jae Crowder from the Nets, who was part of the Durant trade - and will want to be on a playoff contender due to his age - before the deadline expires.
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 02-09-2023
The Nets are a mess. The big 3 they assembled were all prima donnas and/or nut cases. Now they reap what they sowed.
The Lakers aren’t really a contender. They still are 2.5 games under .500 and even a play-in spot is not a given. But if LeBron and AD can stay healthy, they do have a shot to get into the playoffs, which they did not have 2 days ago.
The Warriors are making me wonder how they won a title last year. Were Porter and Payton *that* important? Maybe age is hitting the core players harder and faster than I anticipated. Whatever the explanation, the team does not have the special sauce anymore. I don’t know why Crowder would want to be on this team if his goal is to win a title. Maybe the Nuggets, who could use a glue guy to sub for Porter and Gordon.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 02-09-2023
Jae Crowder traded to the Bucks, for 5 second round picks (don't know if I've ever heard of such a thing before). Gives them a rugged defender who can make open shots and help them combat the Celtics.
I know the Warriors have always liked him, but they just apparently aren't making any moves.
The biggest problem the W's have is they can't get to the FT line and they give up too many FTs. Everyone knows "it's a make or miss league," but it helps when you can get to the FT line. Against the Thunder the W's shot just 7 FTs. They were out shot 10-32 vs. Portland. This is simply not a way to win games. If the 3s aren't falling at a 40% rate, the W's lose, and when the other team scores 22 more points form the line, you lose even when you shoot over 42% from the 3pt line.
And... Jonathan Kuminga must pull down more than 1 rebound in 22 mins!!!
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 02-09-2023
(02-09-2023, 10:03 AM)TrumpCard Wrote: The Warriors are making me wonder how they won a title last year. Were Porter and Payton *that* important? Maybe age is hitting the core players harder and faster than I anticipated. Whatever the explanation, the team does not have the special sauce anymore. I don’t know why Crowder would want to be on this team if his goal is to win a title. Maybe the Nuggets, who could use a glue guy to sub for Porter and Gordon.
Actually...yeah, the second-teamers are an issue. Tim Kawakami of The Athletic had a really good article on it recently. Porter, Payton, Bjelica, Kuminga, Damion Lee, Toscano-Anderson, Iguodala and Moody (last year) had a 23.7 WS (win share, roughly equivalent to baseball's WAR statistic) whereas this year's backups of DiVincenzo, Kuminga, Green, Lamb, Moody, Jerome and Wiseman have a collective WS of 8.5.
Prorated for an 82 game season, that indicates a 10 game drop-off. They won 53 games last year, and are on track to win 42 this year.
Second issue is that Poole, Looney and Wiggins have dramatically underperformed compared to last year.
Third issue is that they really miss Mike Brown, particularly on the defensive coaching side.
Fourth, the Draymond punch of Poole didn't help matters.
Fifth, GP2 has rejoined the Warriors.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 02-09-2023
So the Warriors effectively traded James Wiseman for Gary Payton II. Wow. The still not even 22 yo second pick in the 2020 NBA Draft was traded for a 30 yo undrafted free agent.
Gary Payton II was certainly a big reason the Warriors won the NBA Championship last season. He only started playing a month ago, and is putting up the best numbers of his career in just 15 games, including 53% from 3pt range.
They dump Wiseman's salary and get a player who will help them win now. The Warriors are now better than they were before trading Wiseman, which is probably all you could ask for at this point.
triangle2 - triangle2 - 02-09-2023
Kerr: “I need a freakin defender. Our second unit defense is awful.”
Myers: “But we drafted a 7 footer who is supposed to be developing into a rim protector. You won’t even keep him in the rotation!”
Kerr: “I told you to re-sign GP2. That kid is exactly what we need. But did you listen to me? Get me a freakin defender. I’m not playing Wiseman because he’s a turnover machine and he’s about as energetic as Joe Barry Carroll.”
Myers: “Sigh. Ok, fine.”
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 02-09-2023
I read that if you include the luxury tax hit, dumping Wiseman saved $110, million. The fact they got anything for him is probably a plus.
Bob Meyers has done most everything right. But that was a bad pick. Doesn’t mean he won’t be a good player someday. He may be. But the Warriors weren’t in a position to draft someone who would have to learn on the floor. And to use the number two pick for that was a mistake.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 02-09-2023
(02-09-2023, 03:44 PM)lex24 Wrote: I read that if you include the luxury tax hit, dumping Wiseman saved $110, million. The fact they got anything for him is probably a plus.
Bob Meyers has done most everything right. But that was a bad pick. Doesn’t mean he won’t be a good player someday. He may be. But the Warriors weren’t in a position to draft someone who would have to learn on the floor. And to use the number two pick for that was a mistake.
Totally agree. Terrible pick. I get the idea, and I still think Wiseman will be a good player, but it's three years away, minimum. Big guys develop late in any event, and his lack of playing time over the past four years has really slowed his development.
Lex, would you make Myers the highest-paid NBA exec?
RE: triangle2 - Mick - 02-09-2023
(02-09-2023, 01:48 PM)triangle2 Wrote: Kerr: “I told you to re-sign GP2. That kid is exactly what we need. But did you listen to me? Get me a freakin defender. I’m not playing Wiseman because he’s a turnover machine and he’s about as energetic as Joe Barry Carroll.”
I'd take former first overall selection Joe Barely Cares in a heartbeat over Wiseman. JBC averaged 20.5 ppg with the Warriors, 36 minutes, 1.7 blocks and 8.3 rebounds over six seasons. He was an All Star his last full season with the Warriors (1986-1987).
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 02-09-2023
(02-09-2023, 07:04 PM)Mick Wrote:(02-09-2023, 03:44 PM)lex24 Wrote: I read that if you include the luxury tax hit, dumping Wiseman saved $110, million. The fact they got anything for him is probably a plus.
Bob Meyers has done most everything right. But that was a bad pick. Doesn’t mean he won’t be a good player someday. He may be. But the Warriors weren’t in a position to draft someone who would have to learn on the floor. And to use the number two pick for that was a mistake.
Totally agree. Terrible pick. I get the idea, and I still think Wiseman will be a good player, but it's three years away, minimum. Big guys develop late in any event, and his lack of playing time over the past four years has really slowed his development.
Lex, would you make Myers the highest-paid NBA exec?
Sure, why not. He’s built a dynasty.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 02-10-2023
I wanted the Warriors to draft Wiseman and still think it was a good pick at the time. There are certainly people who thought LaMelo Ball would be a better choice, but even he wasn't an ideal fit. Would he have developed as he did playing backup PG? Would he have played over Wiggins at the 3 spot?
You draft for potential and upside, and there was nobody with a higher upside than Wiseman with his athletic ability and size. Much of the criticism about Wiseman stems from the fact he suffered the knee injury that cost him so much time that his development was stunted, and that couldn't have been predicted when he was drafted. I don't understand why the W's didn't just put him in the G League for most of this year, but whatever. It hardly mattered in the end for the W's.
The only guy I would have taken over Wiseman was Anthony Edwards, and I believe the W's would have picked him. They just missed out by one pick, even though they had the worst record. Buzzards! And only Tyrese Haliburton has turned out to have probably been a better fit as a 2-way player over time, than anyone they could have drafted, unless you want to argue Ball, but he's not a defender.
I saw a video last night pointing out that the Warriors were +3 per 100 possessions without Gary Payton II on floor last season. They were +16 per 100 with him. They don't win the title without him. It was dumb to let him walk. I get the tax and payroll implications, but the W's low-balled a guy who was instrumental in their winning. So kudos to the W's and Lacob in particular to realize their mistakes and rectify by getting GP2 back. It sounds crazy to say getting hi back makes the W's a contender now, but there is no doubt they are closer to being one without Wiseman and with GP2, than with Wiseman and without GP2. Will be quite interesting to see how the W's defense improves now.
RE: triangle2 - lex24 - 02-10-2023
(02-09-2023, 10:37 PM)Mick Wrote:(02-09-2023, 01:48 PM)triangle2 Wrote: Kerr: “I told you to re-sign GP2. That kid is exactly what we need. But did you listen to me? Get me a freakin defender. I’m not playing Wiseman because he’s a turnover machine and he’s about as energetic as Joe Barry Carroll.”
I'd take former first overall selection Joe Barely Cares in a heartbeat over Wiseman. JBC averaged 20.5 ppg with the Warriors, 36 minutes, 1.7 blocks and 8.3 rebounds over six seasons. He was an All Star his last full season with the Warriors (1986-1987).
The JBC trade destroyed the Warriors. Parrish and the No3 pick to Boston for No 1. Boston, of course, picked McHale. Many at the time believed McHale to be the better player. He had gone up against Carroll many times in Big 10 games. And Parrish was already a good player.
Worst trade in Warriors history. Worked out fairly well for Boston…..
(02-10-2023, 06:04 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I wanted the Warriors to draft Wiseman and still think it was a good pick at the time. There are certainly people who thought LaMelo Ball would be a better choice, but even he wasn't an ideal fit. Would he have developed as he did playing backup PG? Would he have played over Wiggins at the 3 spot?
You draft for potential and upside, and there was nobody with a higher upside than Wiseman with his athletic ability and size. Much of the criticism about Wiseman stems from the fact he suffered the knee injury that cost him so much time that his development was stunted, and that couldn't have been predicted when he was drafted. I don't understand why the W's didn't just put him in the G League for most of this year, but whatever. It hardly mattered in the end for the W's.
The only guy I would have taken over Wiseman was Anthony Edwards, and I believe the W's would have picked him. They just missed out by one pick, even though they had the worst record. Buzzards! And only Tyrese Haliburton has turned out to have probably been a better fit as a 2-way player over time, than anyone they could have drafted, unless you want to argue Ball, but he's not a defender.
I saw a video last night pointing out that the Warriors were +3 per 100 possessions without Gary Payton II on floor last season. They were +16 per 100 with him. They don't win the title without him. It was dumb to let him walk. I get the tax and payroll implications, but the W's low-balled a guy who was instrumental in their winning. So kudos to the W's and Lacob in particular to realize their mistakes and rectify by getting GP2 back. It sounds crazy to say getting hi back makes the W's a contender now, but there is no doubt they are closer to being one without Wiseman and with GP2, than with Wiseman and without GP2. Will be quite interesting to see how the W's defense improves now.
That wasn’t a great draft. Rightly or wrongly I think that but/for his father, Warriors pick Ball. But I’m a little biased. I saw Ball along with his brothers as a freshman in the State Championship game against DeLa Salle. He was an 8th grader age wise. And he was the best player on the floor. Remarkable vision at that age. A savant. Putting him in a lineup with guys like Curry, Klay etc, he could have been dynamic. Or, with Dad etc. he could have ruined the chemistry. So, it’s understandable they passed.
Wiseman was a bad fit. First, he was beyond raw. Warriors not in a position to give him minutes to learn on the floor. Second, the 5 for Warriors throughout this run (Bogut, Zaza, Looney etc.) has been someone that is physical, sets good picks, provides some rim protection, rebounds and can pass. Scoring is optional. Wiseman doesn’t fit that mold. If, as usually the case, you’re drafting 20th you can gamble on upside. At 2, when you are in Championship mode, I think you go for the safer pick. Ball had plenty of upside. He was the pick. Except for the dad issue.
RE: NBA Discussion - BobK - 02-10-2023
Would have loved to have The youngest Ball but for dad so agree
Great seeing you at that game Lex
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 02-10-2023
(02-10-2023, 08:49 AM)BobK Wrote: Would have loved to have The youngest Ball but for dad so agree
Great seeing you at that game Lex
That was awhile ago! IIRC you were with Dennis. May he rest in peace.
RE: NBA Discussion - BobK - 02-10-2023
My brother. Same pure white hair
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 02-10-2023
Well, Wiseman 4 way deal may be off. Payton may not pass physical. Gee, where have I seen that happen recently…..