Outside Topic NBA Discussion - Printable Version
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Outside Topic NBA Discussion (/thread-23146.html)
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Outside Topic NBA Discussion (/thread-23146.html)
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 02-10-2023
F the TrailBlazers!
Putting the pieces together, following a failed physical with the Warriors that revealed an abdominal injury expected to sideline Gary Payton II 2-3 moths... Portland knew Gary Payton II was injured and made him take Toradol injections to boost his trade value. They even had the gall to play him against the Warriors the day before the trade deadline shot up. Given the Warriors have been trying to get GP2 from Portland since December, the Blazers purposely misled the Warriors. Why else did Portland trade for Matisse Thybulle, a defensive specialist with less offensive game than GP2? Because they KNEW GP2 was damaged goods and wasn't going to be available down the stretch!
Did the Blazers GM really think the Warriors wouldn't find out Payton II wasn't healthy and is unable to play without Toradol injections? So the Blazers - who are battling the Warriors for playoff positioning - took 5 2nd round picks from the Warriors to give up GP2, KNOWING he was injured and wouldn't be able to play for the Warriors who traded for him expecting him to be available right away to improve their playoff positioning. The bitch of it is the trade parameters can't be changed. The trade either goes through on agreed to terms or it it is rescinded. If I were the W's, I'd still go through with the trade even if they wouldn't get GP 2 until April, because they need him and WTF would they do with Wiseman when they need if salary of the books as well?
The Warriors are hopping pissed off and should get the NBA to punish the Blazers pretty harshly for the bullshit they pulled. Like, maybe the league can force the Blazers to give back 2 of the 2nd round picks the W's had to give up to get GP2.
I'm so pissed at the Blazers for this bush league move they made to mislead the Warriors and their fans like they have.
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 02-10-2023
GP played through a broken elbow in the playoffs last year too. Warrior, double meaning intended.
RE: NBA Discussion - cardcrimson - 02-11-2023
Wow. I thought someone would be pummeling the Warriors management for not doing proper due diligence before the trade, and now looking like a laughing stock, a la the Giants and Correa. I guess the foot's on the other hand now, isn't it OF?
https://y.yarn.co/bb1a6838-fde2-4373-b5ad-69e9aebd8f7a.mp4
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 02-12-2023
When you must shoot over 40% on a high volume from 3pt range, and keep the other team from shooting more than 25 FTs, to win an NBA game, you aren't going to win most NBA games. The Warriors' last two losses to the Blazers and Lakers have made this clear. Joe Lacob is going to have some real interesting decisions to make this offseason. Pretty hard to justify a $400M payroll for a .500 team that can't even win a round in the playoffs I would think.
Klay Thompson will be on an expiring contract in a few months and assuming Draymond Green opts into his, they will cost $70M next season against the cap but be on expiring contracts, which will make them trade bait. They could well be traded to contenders for younger, cheaper players. If they were on expiring deals this year, they might have been traded last week.
It's too bad the Warriors had to give up on James Wiseman. Would have been fun to see Wiseman, Kuminga, PBJ, Moody, and Poole play together. They aren't winning much when Wiseman plays a little, but they aren't winning much when he doesn't play at all either, and who knows if Payton II will even play a game for the W's this year. In retrospect, should have played Wiseman more to see what would happen when he played 30 mins a game and could get the experience he needs.
At this point, my best outcome for this season would be to miss the playoffs and win the lottery to draft you know who.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 02-12-2023
(02-12-2023, 07:42 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: When you must shoot over 40% on a high volume from 3pt range, and keep the other team from shooting more than 25 FTs, to win an NBA game, you aren't going to win most NBA games. The Warriors' last two losses to the Blazers and Lakers have made this clear. Joe Lacob is going to have some real interesting decisions to make this offseason. Pretty hard to justify a $400M payroll for a .500 team that can't even win a round in the playoffs I would think.
You have to play defense, too. The way the youngsters play, it reminds me of the "defense optional" 1970s. Defense isn't optional in today's NBA. And yes, I know Kuminga plays very good, at times excellent defense. Poole plays like he can't spell "defense".
(02-12-2023, 07:42 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: Klay Thompson will be on an expiring contract in a few months and assuming Draymond Green opts into his, they will cost $70M next season against the cap but be on expiring contracts, which will make them trade bait. They could well be traded to contenders for younger, cheaper players. If they were on expiring deals this year, they might have been traded last week.Frankly, I'd love to see them trade both Draymond and Thompson for next year. It wouldn't even bother me to see them trade Steph Curry. No disrespect, but he's old and continually hurt. He hasn't played 70 games since 2016-2017, he played in 63 and 64 the last two years, he isn't coming back until the All Star break which mean he'll have missed 20 games throught the ASB, then will miss a minimum of six more through the end of the season. Absolute max he'll play is 56 games this season.
(02-12-2023, 07:42 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: It's too bad the Warriors had to give up on James Wiseman. Would have been fun to see Wiseman, Kuminga, PBJ, Moody, and Poole play together. They aren't winning much when Wiseman plays a little, but they aren't winning much when he doesn't play at all either, and who knows if Payton II will even play a game for the W's this year. In retrospect, should have played Wiseman more to see what would happen when he played 30 mins a game and could get the experience he needs.
They haven't given up on him yet, not until 6:30 p.m. today.
(02-12-2023, 07:42 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: At this point, my best outcome for this season would be to miss the playoffs and win the lottery to draft you know who.Like Bill Walsh said, I'd rather get rid of them a year early than a year late. They aren't winning the title this year, next year or any year soon. I'd rather see James Wiseman figure it out, have them win 15 games two years in a row and get two more lottery picks, then let's see how good Steve Kerr and his coaching/development staff really is.
RE: NBA Discussion - BostonCard - 02-12-2023
Looks like the deal went through…
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35647582/gary-payton-four-team-trade-track-go-through
Note, however, that the league is investigating, and the Portland could be punished if they knew they were sending “damaged goods” to the Warriors.
BC
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 02-12-2023
(02-12-2023, 09:06 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Looks like the deal went through…
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35647582/gary-payton-four-team-trade-track-go-through
Note, however, that the league is investigating, and the Portland could be punished if they knew they were sending “damaged goods” to the Warriors.
BC
I have a little pool with my sons over the eventual outcome. I think Portland will have to return a second rounder to the W's, one of my sons thinks they'll have to give up two or more 2nd round picks, and my other son thinks that Portland will be punished, but no benefit will accrue to the W's (cynical lad).
RE: NBA Discussion - BostonCard - 02-13-2023
I’d go with your cynical son. Relax, though, it’s a second round pick. What have the warriors ever gotten in the second round.
BC
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 02-13-2023
Glad the Warriors stood up for themselves, the rest of the NBA, and pro sports writ large, by lodging a complaint with the NBA about the Blazer's very underhanded behavior.
The NBA could lop off a draft pick or two from the Payton deal, give the Warriors compensatory picks, and fine the Blazers. This still sucks for the Warriors because they could lose 10's of millions of dollars without Payton playing when they expected he would be as trade was formulated. Don't forget, the Warriors and Blazers were in talks about Payton for weeks and the Blazers didn't let the Warriors know of his injury and Torado shots. But the Blazers went out and got Matisse Thybulle to effectively replace Payton's defense, if he would be gone.
The Warriors could have gone after Thybulle and Jarred Vanderbilt if they knew Payton was damaged goods. As it is, their defense will remain unimproved for at least 2 months until Payton can play. It's still a big deal that Payton doesn't get to play for this long. The draft picks and any Blazers punishment isn't going to salvage the damage done to the Warriors playoff positioning, and could be very costly. At least they got the booby prize of ridding themselves of Wiseman's contract next season, but as noted, how good will the team even be without him?
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 02-13-2023
(02-13-2023, 12:02 AM)BostonCard Wrote: I’d go with your cynical son. Relax, though, it’s a second round pick. What have the warriors ever gotten in the second round.
BC
I know it's a rhetorical question, but I still feel compelled to list Draymond Green, Monta Ellis, Gilbert Arenas, Derek Smith, Larry Smith, Gus Williams, Wayne Cooper, Sonny Parker and Keith Smart. Also Sarunas (actually, he was in the 6th round). And Pace Mannion and Nico Mannion were father and son second round selections. And a whole bunch I didn't name who had pretty good NBA careers and even more who didn't pan out.
RE: NBA Discussion - BostonCard - 02-13-2023
I embedded a link in “gotten”
BC
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 02-13-2023
Mick, I agree that the championship team's core is too old and oft-injured to win it all again (or even get close to that pinnacle). The team was lucky that everything fell into place last year, but the stars are not aligning again.
The problem I see is that the team probably will not be able to unload Klay's $43mm expiring contract this summer without giving a first round pick (which is not really something a rebuilding team should be doing). So if I were in the front office, I would reluctantly eat Klay's contract and pay the luxury tax. Potentially try to trade it at the 2024 trade deadline when someone might be more willing to accept it for less or no draft compensation, but that's the best outcome that seems plausible to me.
Dray's $27mm expiring contract might be a little easier to unload because the contract value is lower and because Dray hasn't suffered any injuries of the severity of Klay's ACL or Achilles injuries. Maybe Dray would waive his kicker if the Warriors can trade him to the right team.
As for Curry, it would be so incredibly unpopular to trade an all-NBA player who's the MVP of a dynasty and a future Hall of Famer. But if the Warriors could get a couple of first round picks and a package of role players to offset the money, that probably would be the strategic thing to do. I continually wonder why teams are willing to mortgage their future for an aging superstar, but teams continue to do it, so I suppose there is some logic behind it.
RE: NBA Discussion - Leftcoast - 02-13-2023
Call me snake-bitten.
I coughed and spit out my tea when I read someone say he'd trade Curry for a couple of draft picks and some role players. It's not personal (no appetite for flame wars!) but when I hear that sort of talk I wonder how long you've even BEEN a Warriors fan. Long term fans know how the Warriors have used their first round picks and know they are legendary in a bad way. A very, very bad way. We've had year after year where we had the promise of lots of low first round picks and we've had a few years where we've been championship contenders. I don't want to go back to the former.
Here's a partial list of Warriors first round misses in the high-pick 80s-90s-early 2000s wilderness years: Joe Barry Carroll (1), Ricky Brown (13), Lester Conner (14), Russell Cross (6), Chris Washburn (3), Tellis Frank (14), Chris Gatling (16), Latrell Sprewell (24) (Admittedly an all-star but ...), Joe Smith (1), Todd Fuller (11), Adonal Foyle (8), Jeff Foster (21), Mickael Pietrus (3), Andris Biedrins (11), Ike Diogu (9), Patrick O'Bryant (9), Marco Bellinelli (18), Anthony Randolph (14). And then, finally, Steph Curry (7) in 2009.
Ok, I left out some hits (ex Chris Mullin, Tim Hardaway) but you get the point, the NBA draft is a high stakes poker match with 32 other teams at the table. Everyone will lose more often than they win and the Warriors have history as the sucker at the table.
The Curry championship window is still open if the team puts the right folks around him as last year proved. His value to the franchise goes beyond the epic points, for example high end free agents will come to the Warriors for the chance to play with Curry. In the 80s that type of player wouldn't return the GM's phone calls. Trade Curry and they may lose our number again. Transcendent talent only comes your way once in a generation and you don't trade it away for a chance at Latrell Sprewell, Joe Smith or Chris Washburn.
Finally, here's the top 16 draft picks in Wiseman's draft year. This is another draft where I'd take 2023 Curry over any two picks - particularly knowing the Warriors considered LaMelo Ball radioactive. Looking at this may make the Wiseman failure a little easier to stomach, after Ball (and maybe Edwards or Halliburton) there's not much there.
2020 First Round:
1 MIN Anthony Edwards Georgia
2 GSW James Wiseman Memphis
3 CHO LaMelo Ball
4 CHI Patrick Williams Fl St.
5 CLE Isaac Okoro Auburn
6 ATL Onyeka Okongwu USC
7 DET Killian Hayes
8 NYK Obi Toppin Dayton
9 WAS Deni Avdija
10 PHO Jalen Smith Maryland
11 SAS Devin Vassell Florida State
12 SAC Tyrese Haliburton Iowa State
13 NOP Kira Lewis Jr. Alabama
14 BOS Aaron Nesmith Vanderbilt
15 ORL Cole Anthony UNC
16 POR Isaiah Stewart Washington
RE: NBA Discussion - Ratmandoo - 02-13-2023
I never understand when fans want to get rid of their best players who have won them multiple championships because they got old so they can open another mythical championship window. You know what would absolutely suck - seeing Steph and Klay in another teams uniform. Their teams have won FOUR championships. Even if this team is mediocre for the rest of their careers, I want to watch them play together as Warriors just to see a Klay game like when he dropped 12 threes on the Thunder last week. Those are amazing.
It's funny when I read about how players are no longer loyal to their teams. How could a player transfer for NIL money??? Where's the loyalty? And yet, I'm reading here that there are some fans who would consider trading Steph or Klay after all they have done for the Warriors and their fans. For what... to save some money for the billionaire owner on the luxury tax? I'm just confused by any talking of trading either of the greatest shooting backcourt in NBA history that has 4 rings. I could go on for a while but I'll stop my rant here.
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 02-13-2023
I'm a Lakers fan.
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 02-13-2023
(02-13-2023, 06:11 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: I'm a Lakers fan.
My condolences. :)
RE: NBA Discussion - Leftcoast - 02-13-2023
Lakers fan, eh? Well, THAT explains it!
Not sure what the "worst draft ever" is in Lakers lore to stack against the Dubs "Joe Barry Carroll for McHale's draft pick and Parrish"? Maybe Javaris Crittenden in 2007? That one doesn't have quite the same sting.
Congrats on the Saturday win.
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 02-13-2023
(02-13-2023, 07:25 PM)Leftcoast Wrote: Lakers fan, eh? Well, THAT explains it!
Not sure what the "worst draft ever" is in Lakers lore to stack against the Dubs "Joe Barry Carroll for McHale's draft pick and Parrish"? Maybe Javaris Crittenden in 2007? That one doesn't have quite the same sting.
Congrats on the Saturday win.
The Lakers have no right to be upset about the draft. Magic, Worthy, and Kobe. Not to mention plenty of other good players.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 02-14-2023
Nobody should ever be allowed to refer to the Warriors drafting Todd Fuller unless "instead of Kobe Bryant" is added to the statement! I gave up on the team for a very long time after that idiotic decision.
Anyway, as for trading aging stars, it's kind of the way for NBA, MLB, and NHL teams who aren't serious contenders. And I highly doubt the Warriors would need to attach a first round pick to take Klay Thompson on an expiring contract. If he were available by trade on a 1-year deal, contending teams would fall over themselves for him. He's a Hall of Fame player with championship pedigree teams that haven't won will covet. The interesting thing would be what players (contracts) would go back to the Warriors in terms of salary matching?
Speaking of Klay, will the W's play him for first time in second of back-to-back tonight, given the game is in L.A. on TNT, and it's the last W's game before All-Star break? All games need to be treated as must wins at this point.
The Bucks host the Celtics tonight. Probably the biggest game of year for the Bucks on a 10-game win streak, on TNT before W's-Clips.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 02-14-2023
(02-13-2023, 04:37 PM)Leftcoast Wrote: I coughed and spit out my tea when I read someone say he'd trade Curry for a couple of draft picks and some role players. It's not personal (no appetite for flame wars!) but when I hear that sort of talk I wonder how long you've even BEEN a Warriors fan. Long term fans know how the Warriors have used their first round picks and know they are legendary in a bad way. A very, very bad way. We've had year after year where we had the promise of lots of low first round picks and we've had a few years where we've been championship contenders. I don't want to go back to the former.
Here's a partial list of Warriors first round misses in the high-pick 80s-90s-early 2000s wilderness years: Joe Barry Carroll (1), Ricky Brown (13), Lester Conner (14), Russell Cross (6), Chris Washburn (3), Tellis Frank (14), Chris Gatling (16), Latrell Sprewell (24) (Admittedly an all-star but ...), Joe Smith (1), Todd Fuller (11), Adonal Foyle (8), Jeff Foster (21), Mickael Pietrus (3), Andris Biedrins (11), Ike Diogu (9), Patrick O'Bryant (9), Marco Bellinelli (18), Anthony Randolph (14).
I've been a Warriors fan since the late 1960s. My father and father in law both played college basketball. It's my favorite spectator sport of the Big Four. And yes, I'd trade Curry, Thompson and Draymond rather than watch them play .500 ball and show up for 2/3rds of the games.
And you know the people who drafted those terrible first round picks are gone, right? And JBC averaged more than 20 ppg for the W's. No, I would have FAR preferred to have Parrish and McHale, obviously. But Todd Fuller and JBC don't belong in the same group.