CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Printable Version
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Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Farm93 - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 04:05 PM)teejers1 link Wrote:Given that you think it's meaningless, then I guess we all should just pack it in when Stanford hits 3 losses in any given season.Season is over at 2 losses, for Pac-12 teams. Maybe for the SEC the season is not over until loss #3. ;)
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Farm93 - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 04:05 PM)teejers1 link Wrote:Given that you think it's meaningless, then I guess we all should just pack it in when Stanford hits 3 losses in any given season.Season is over at 2 losses, for Pac-12 teams. Maybe for the SEC the season is not over until loss #3. ;)
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 04:05 PM)teejers1 link Wrote:Respectfully, fullmetal, I think you're way off base in believing that the team is fine with this decision. They are good teammates so they are keeping their disgruntlement in-house, but really, it's hard to see how anyone who has played competitive team sports would not have a problem with this. They might understand it - heck, I think most of us "get" the thinking behind Christian looking out for his own financial best interest - but like it or agree with it? That is an entirely different matter.Possibly you are correct, but usually when your teammates are upset, word gets out. Somebody says something. CMac has decided he won't be back next year. Given that, it may be better for his team that they prepare for that fact. They may fully understand this. If I were BLove or CScarlett I would be quite happy that CMac wasn't playing. No ill will to Christian, but he is gone. Him playing just cuts down on the opportunity for the backs that WILL play next year. If these backs didn't exist, yes, it would be very selfish for Christian to leave his team with no running game. But they do, and maybe BLove will want to start building his highlight tapes.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 04:05 PM)teejers1 link Wrote:Respectfully, fullmetal, I think you're way off base in believing that the team is fine with this decision. They are good teammates so they are keeping their disgruntlement in-house, but really, it's hard to see how anyone who has played competitive team sports would not have a problem with this. They might understand it - heck, I think most of us "get" the thinking behind Christian looking out for his own financial best interest - but like it or agree with it? That is an entirely different matter.Possibly you are correct, but usually when your teammates are upset, word gets out. Somebody says something. CMac has decided he won't be back next year. Given that, it may be better for his team that they prepare for that fact. They may fully understand this. If I were BLove or CScarlett I would be quite happy that CMac wasn't playing. No ill will to Christian, but he is gone. Him playing just cuts down on the opportunity for the backs that WILL play next year. If these backs didn't exist, yes, it would be very selfish for Christian to leave his team with no running game. But they do, and maybe BLove will want to start building his highlight tapes.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Langdude - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 03:24 PM)Goose link Wrote:I think it is up to the players to decide if it is disrespectful or disappointing, not to us. I think there is an argument that to PLAY is equally if not more disrespectful. Once you have decided that you will not be back, taking playing time and practice reps from guys that will be back could be considered selfish. If everybody who played the position was hurt or just not adequate, things may be different, but that is not the case. Stanford is not being left in the lurch. Why not quit before the Rice game? Because in theory you have not decided you will not be back. If you have decided, you should tell the coach and let him decide if you should indeed continue to play. In this case, we don't know what the internal dynamics were. I assure you that if any significant number of players were not happy about the situation, it would have surfaced by now.
   Note that coaches who have accepted another job usually do not coach bowl games. This is considered normal. This situation is similar in my view.
These are good points. Thanks, Goose!
I would simply say that I disagree that it would have surfaced if a player was unhappy about it. Hard to believe that 85 young men are going to all feel the same about anything. They're getting ready for the bowl game, and if a player was unhappy, he is not going to want to further upset the apple cart by sending out a tweet about it. I'll bet Shaw told everyone to stay on target; his statement alone was not very enthusiastically supportive, probably wanting to balance the mixed emotions they all had.
Also, I appreciate the comparison to coaches. I do think it is similar. But, as a former player, I will say that I would feel abandoned if, after understandably taking a head coaching job, my coach did not show up to coach me and my teammates through the bowl game. And as a player and fan, I would want that coach to coach if his work would help the team win the game. And that is where actually it is dissimilar; the coach would not be risking injury by coming back; I assume that is why CM is not playing.
-m.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Langdude - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 03:24 PM)Goose link Wrote:I think it is up to the players to decide if it is disrespectful or disappointing, not to us. I think there is an argument that to PLAY is equally if not more disrespectful. Once you have decided that you will not be back, taking playing time and practice reps from guys that will be back could be considered selfish. If everybody who played the position was hurt or just not adequate, things may be different, but that is not the case. Stanford is not being left in the lurch. Why not quit before the Rice game? Because in theory you have not decided you will not be back. If you have decided, you should tell the coach and let him decide if you should indeed continue to play. In this case, we don't know what the internal dynamics were. I assure you that if any significant number of players were not happy about the situation, it would have surfaced by now.
   Note that coaches who have accepted another job usually do not coach bowl games. This is considered normal. This situation is similar in my view.
These are good points. Thanks, Goose!
I would simply say that I disagree that it would have surfaced if a player was unhappy about it. Hard to believe that 85 young men are going to all feel the same about anything. They're getting ready for the bowl game, and if a player was unhappy, he is not going to want to further upset the apple cart by sending out a tweet about it. I'll bet Shaw told everyone to stay on target; his statement alone was not very enthusiastically supportive, probably wanting to balance the mixed emotions they all had.
Also, I appreciate the comparison to coaches. I do think it is similar. But, as a former player, I will say that I would feel abandoned if, after understandably taking a head coaching job, my coach did not show up to coach me and my teammates through the bowl game. And as a player and fan, I would want that coach to coach if his work would help the team win the game. And that is where actually it is dissimilar; the coach would not be risking injury by coming back; I assume that is why CM is not playing.
-m.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - 81alum - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 04:41 PM)Goose link Wrote:[quote author=teejers1 link=topic=16303.msg183257#msg183257 date=1482275108]Possibly you are correct, but usually when your teammates are upset, word gets out. Somebody says something. CMac has decided he won't be back next year. Given that, it may be better for his team that they prepare for that fact. They may fully understand this. If I were BLove or CScarlett I would be quite happy that CMac wasn't playing. No ill will to Christian, but he is gone. Him playing just cuts down on the opportunity for the backs that WILL play next year. If these backs didn't exist, yes, it would be very selfish for Christian to leave his team with no running game. But they do, and maybe BLove will want to start building his highlight tapes.
Respectfully, fullmetal, I think you're way off base in believing that the team is fine with this decision. They are good teammates so they are keeping their disgruntlement in-house, but really, it's hard to see how anyone who has played competitive team sports would not have a problem with this. They might understand it - heck, I think most of us "get" the thinking behind Christian looking out for his own financial best interest - but like it or agree with it? That is an entirely different matter.
[/quote]
It has occurred to me that there is a possible altruistic motive. Love is a very gifted athlete who has been playing in CMac's shadow. Maybe CMac feels that if he (CMac) is not willing to commit for another year, it is only fair that he should clear the way for Love to play in a spotlight game.
So now there are two rationalizations of CMac's decision I could live with--loyalty to Bryce or that CMac is spooked by a hidden injury. But I am clutching at straws.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - 81alum - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 04:41 PM)Goose link Wrote:[quote author=teejers1 link=topic=16303.msg183257#msg183257 date=1482275108]Possibly you are correct, but usually when your teammates are upset, word gets out. Somebody says something. CMac has decided he won't be back next year. Given that, it may be better for his team that they prepare for that fact. They may fully understand this. If I were BLove or CScarlett I would be quite happy that CMac wasn't playing. No ill will to Christian, but he is gone. Him playing just cuts down on the opportunity for the backs that WILL play next year. If these backs didn't exist, yes, it would be very selfish for Christian to leave his team with no running game. But they do, and maybe BLove will want to start building his highlight tapes.
Respectfully, fullmetal, I think you're way off base in believing that the team is fine with this decision. They are good teammates so they are keeping their disgruntlement in-house, but really, it's hard to see how anyone who has played competitive team sports would not have a problem with this. They might understand it - heck, I think most of us "get" the thinking behind Christian looking out for his own financial best interest - but like it or agree with it? That is an entirely different matter.
[/quote]
It has occurred to me that there is a possible altruistic motive. Love is a very gifted athlete who has been playing in CMac's shadow. Maybe CMac feels that if he (CMac) is not willing to commit for another year, it is only fair that he should clear the way for Love to play in a spotlight game.
So now there are two rationalizations of CMac's decision I could live with--loyalty to Bryce or that CMac is spooked by a hidden injury. But I am clutching at straws.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - SamAtoms1980 - 12-20-2016
Quote:Did I mention that the Sun Bowl is a fifth-tier bowl vs. UNC this year? That's not a meaningful game in that a win does not result in a tangibly better outcome than a loss. And I think CMac knows that Stanford is equipped to handle UNC without him--if Stanford plays like we know they're capable of playing. I don't think he's completely leaving the team out to dry, but he is making their job a bit harder.
Sun Bowl is NOT a fifth-tier bowl game, if the playoff and NY6 are tier one, that puts the Sun Bowl in the second, the third tier at the very lowest. Fifth-tier bowl games are more like the one going on right now between WKU and Memphis
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - SamAtoms1980 - 12-20-2016
Quote:Did I mention that the Sun Bowl is a fifth-tier bowl vs. UNC this year? That's not a meaningful game in that a win does not result in a tangibly better outcome than a loss. And I think CMac knows that Stanford is equipped to handle UNC without him--if Stanford plays like we know they're capable of playing. I don't think he's completely leaving the team out to dry, but he is making their job a bit harder.
Sun Bowl is NOT a fifth-tier bowl game, if the playoff and NY6 are tier one, that puts the Sun Bowl in the second, the third tier at the very lowest. Fifth-tier bowl games are more like the one going on right now between WKU and Memphis
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 04:51 PM)81alum link Wrote:It has occurred to me that there is a possible altruistic motive. Love is a very gifted athlete who has been playing in CMac's shadow. Maybe CMac feels that if he (CMac) is not willing to commit for another year, it is only fair that he should clear the way for Love to play in a spotlight game.For me, I don't see it as CMac clearing the way. I see it more as Shaw and the rest of the team possibly saying, "OK, you are no longer one of us. No offense, you are doing what is best for you. We understand and support your choice. We wish you well. But, now we must do what is best for those who are staying. So get out of the way." Next Man Up has to always trump sentiment. If Christian had kept the fact he was leaving to himself, even though he knew he was, took the reps, and played in the game, would that be doing the team a service? I don't think so. The fans may think so, but the team would know better. CMac may have made the hard choice and done the right thing. Perhaps we should applaud him, not excoriate him.
So now there are two rationalizations of CMac's decision I could live with--loyalty to Bryce or that CMac is spooked by a hidden injury. But I am clutching at straws.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 04:51 PM)81alum link Wrote:It has occurred to me that there is a possible altruistic motive. Love is a very gifted athlete who has been playing in CMac's shadow. Maybe CMac feels that if he (CMac) is not willing to commit for another year, it is only fair that he should clear the way for Love to play in a spotlight game.For me, I don't see it as CMac clearing the way. I see it more as Shaw and the rest of the team possibly saying, "OK, you are no longer one of us. No offense, you are doing what is best for you. We understand and support your choice. We wish you well. But, now we must do what is best for those who are staying. So get out of the way." Next Man Up has to always trump sentiment. If Christian had kept the fact he was leaving to himself, even though he knew he was, took the reps, and played in the game, would that be doing the team a service? I don't think so. The fans may think so, but the team would know better. CMac may have made the hard choice and done the right thing. Perhaps we should applaud him, not excoriate him.
So now there are two rationalizations of CMac's decision I could live with--loyalty to Bryce or that CMac is spooked by a hidden injury. But I am clutching at straws.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 06:11 AM)ThePOC link Wrote:[quote author=winflop link=topic=16303.msg183155#msg183155 date=1482212897]
[quote author=AthleticsDynasty link=topic=16303.msg183154#msg183154 date=1482212718]
It's just disrespectful to the seniors especially the ones who are likely done playing football.
It's disrespectful to ALL of his teammates, his coaches, and the fans. More than anything else, I'm disappointed in him for making a bad decision. But that's all it is - one bad decision. He's made a lot of good ones too - let's not forget that.
[/quote]
I'm curious, what's your criteria for a bad decision in this case?
[/quote]
1. I believe bowl games are part of the season and therefore I see this as leaving the team before the season is over which I think is a poor decision. I hear the argument that he would have played in the RB or CFP, but then I am left to ask why didn't he just hang them up after the loss to Colorado when both of those were out of the question?
2. I believe you should leave the best possible impression when you leave any organization - job or otherwise. I think he has done the opposite, as evidenced by the number of other board members and other forums where a good number of people have similar - or more frustrated - reactions to this decision. That's not how you want people to remember you.
But let's put this in perspective - it's one poor decision among many other good ones. I still love the kid, I still think he's the best player to ever put on a Stanford football jersey, I'm thankful & grateful to have witnessed so many of his games in person, and I wish him nothing but success in the NFL. But this does leave a bitter taste in my mouth.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 06:11 AM)ThePOC link Wrote:[quote author=winflop link=topic=16303.msg183155#msg183155 date=1482212897]
[quote author=AthleticsDynasty link=topic=16303.msg183154#msg183154 date=1482212718]
It's just disrespectful to the seniors especially the ones who are likely done playing football.
It's disrespectful to ALL of his teammates, his coaches, and the fans. More than anything else, I'm disappointed in him for making a bad decision. But that's all it is - one bad decision. He's made a lot of good ones too - let's not forget that.
[/quote]
I'm curious, what's your criteria for a bad decision in this case?
[/quote]
1. I believe bowl games are part of the season and therefore I see this as leaving the team before the season is over which I think is a poor decision. I hear the argument that he would have played in the RB or CFP, but then I am left to ask why didn't he just hang them up after the loss to Colorado when both of those were out of the question?
2. I believe you should leave the best possible impression when you leave any organization - job or otherwise. I think he has done the opposite, as evidenced by the number of other board members and other forums where a good number of people have similar - or more frustrated - reactions to this decision. That's not how you want people to remember you.
But let's put this in perspective - it's one poor decision among many other good ones. I still love the kid, I still think he's the best player to ever put on a Stanford football jersey, I'm thankful & grateful to have witnessed so many of his games in person, and I wish him nothing but success in the NFL. But this does leave a bitter taste in my mouth.
Re: Will this cost Christian McCaffrey draft spots and money? - winflop - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 07:39 AM)SUBuddha link Wrote:I personally respect the kid for this. He is not quitting on his team, they have been universally supportive of him on social media. It was fun to watch him for three years, take what you got from it and remember you have not walked in his shoes.
Then we will have to agree to disagree. No biggie.
Re: Will this cost Christian McCaffrey draft spots and money? - winflop - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 07:39 AM)SUBuddha link Wrote:I personally respect the kid for this. He is not quitting on his team, they have been universally supportive of him on social media. It was fun to watch him for three years, take what you got from it and remember you have not walked in his shoes.
Then we will have to agree to disagree. No biggie.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 09:26 AM)eric link Wrote:and Shaw's official comments
"We understand that this was a very difficult decision. For three years Christian has not only been a great player, but a great teammate as well," said David Shaw, Stanford's Bradford M. Freeman Director of Football. "We wish him great success at the next level, as we continue our preparation for the Sun Bowl."
http://www.gostanford.com/news/2016/12/19/football-mccaffrey-to-miss-bowl.aspx
I largely agree with everything Shaw said, except for the part about him being a great teammate. He was a great teammate for ALMOST three years. There is no circumstance under which this decision can be construed as him being a great teammate.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 09:26 AM)eric link Wrote:and Shaw's official comments
"We understand that this was a very difficult decision. For three years Christian has not only been a great player, but a great teammate as well," said David Shaw, Stanford's Bradford M. Freeman Director of Football. "We wish him great success at the next level, as we continue our preparation for the Sun Bowl."
http://www.gostanford.com/news/2016/12/19/football-mccaffrey-to-miss-bowl.aspx
I largely agree with everything Shaw said, except for the part about him being a great teammate. He was a great teammate for ALMOST three years. There is no circumstance under which this decision can be construed as him being a great teammate.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 11:28 AM)donkey687 link Wrote:[quote author=ThePOC link=topic=16303.msg183225#msg183225 date=1482257427]
Does anyone happen to know off the top of their head what percentage of Stanford's potential Sun Bowl payout Christian would have been entitled to receive? Rhetorical question, really.
Stanford makes chump change from the Sun Bowl. They won't net much at all after expenses and conference sharing. CMac's and all the players bowl schwag, plane tickets, hotel rooms and entertainment would be a decent percentage of what Stanford nets in profit on the Sun Bowl. CMac has certainly helped Stanford sell tickets and improve television ratings which benefits the school and funds many non-revenue Olympic sports at Stanford, but Stanford has also done a lot to build the CMac brand. The amount that the athletic department spends on PR, social media, video production, training facilities, trainers and coaches is not trivial and benefits the players and their ability to land a job in the NFL and future marketing endorsements.
[/quote]
This is not quite accurate. Stanford shares in all bowl game revenues equally with the other 12 teams in the conference. So that revenue number is largely locked in with the exception of the CFP. The costs are also relatively locked in because a Pac-12 team is generally going to go to every bowl game they are committed to (this year is an exception with only six bowl-eligible teams), and the CFP is extra.
I would expect all twelve teams to be profitable on bowl games, regardless of which bowl they go to (or none at all).
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-20-2016
(12-20-2016, 11:28 AM)donkey687 link Wrote:[quote author=ThePOC link=topic=16303.msg183225#msg183225 date=1482257427]
Does anyone happen to know off the top of their head what percentage of Stanford's potential Sun Bowl payout Christian would have been entitled to receive? Rhetorical question, really.
Stanford makes chump change from the Sun Bowl. They won't net much at all after expenses and conference sharing. CMac's and all the players bowl schwag, plane tickets, hotel rooms and entertainment would be a decent percentage of what Stanford nets in profit on the Sun Bowl. CMac has certainly helped Stanford sell tickets and improve television ratings which benefits the school and funds many non-revenue Olympic sports at Stanford, but Stanford has also done a lot to build the CMac brand. The amount that the athletic department spends on PR, social media, video production, training facilities, trainers and coaches is not trivial and benefits the players and their ability to land a job in the NFL and future marketing endorsements.
[/quote]
This is not quite accurate. Stanford shares in all bowl game revenues equally with the other 12 teams in the conference. So that revenue number is largely locked in with the exception of the CFP. The costs are also relatively locked in because a Pac-12 team is generally going to go to every bowl game they are committed to (this year is an exception with only six bowl-eligible teams), and the CFP is extra.
I would expect all twelve teams to be profitable on bowl games, regardless of which bowl they go to (or none at all).