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RE: NBA Discussion - Chupacabra - 04-19-2023
The injury is irrelevant, the act is what's relevant. And it wasn't nearly as bad as it was made out to be (especially by Kerr). A hard foul in transition and he landed badly. Kerr acted like his career was over and he returned in the playoffs, got a bag of money, and found his way back to the Warriors. Dillon's play was reckless but not an intentional act to injure by any means. Draymond stomped on a guy...there's no defense for that.
(04-19-2023, 01:27 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: * I can't recall anyone ever getting a serious injury - anything that forced a player to miss a game - as a result of Draymond Green actions. Compare this to Dillon Brooks flagrantly fouling Gary Payton 2 in last year's playoffs, leading to a broken wrist, and almost kept him out of the Finals where without him the Warriors don't win. Brooks missed 1 game.
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 01:58 PM)Leftcoast Wrote: There's a good video with multiple camera viewpoints here for all of us amateur orthopedic doctors to review (and I'm including myself in that group!)
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/36221490/warriors-green-ejected-game-2-kicking-kings-sabonis
Looks fairly significant to me. I mean sure, he didn’t jump up and down on Sabonis.Nor did he break his sternum. And, I suppose if he truly wanted to hurt him, he could have jumped on him and pounded his head into the floor until he was knocked senseless…
But to be serious, how this is viewed relative to the severity of the “stomp” (or delicate foot impact) is impacted by one’s perspective and bias. But the argument that “gee it only really matters if he hurt the guy” is, imo, specious.
Further, imo, Green brings this stuff on himself. He thrives on it. And sometimes it’s going to bite him (and worse the team) in the ass. As it has here.
RE: NBA Discussion - McKenwood - 04-19-2023
The NBA was justified in suspending Draymond. They shouldn't have added the language about the history of unsportsmanlike acts in their statement. They already have the multiple technical rules to deal with repeat offenders so this smacks of a standard for Draymond Green and then a different one for everyone else (ok maybe not Dillon Brooks).
My bigger concern right now is Steve Kerr's coaching. He had all season to get the role players into places where they could be meaningful contributors. He has failed. He is the Bruce Bochy of NBA coaches where he works well with veteran plyers who know his system but cannot develop younger players. His comeuppance will be Game 3 where he has to rely on guys that he hasn't developed and effectively dissed by benching in Games 1 and 2.
Also Bob Myers came into the season with an inadequate roster (no third center or third PF) to the point where the two way players are staples for much of the season. Then at the trade deadline he takes back an injured player (another guard!) and doesn't get any size. Contrast with the trade deadline acquistions of the Lakers and Clippers.
Not sure where the W's go from here. They need to move on from Draymond and certainly shouldn't pay Klay anywhere near the max (not a two way player anymore). Where does that leave Steph Curry when he wouldn't have his two running mates and a non-championship roster around him?
lex24 - lex24 - 04-19-2023
(04-19-2023, 03:27 PM)McKenwood Wrote: The NBA was justified in suspending Draymond. They shouldn't have added the language about the history of unsportsmanlike acts in their statement. They already have the multiple technical rules to deal with repeat offenders so this smacks of a standard for Draymond Green and then a different one for everyone else (ok maybe not Dillon Brooks).
My bigger concern right now is Steve Kerr's coaching. He had all season to get the role players into places where they could be meaningful contributors. He has failed. He is the Bruce Bochy of NBA coaches where he works well with veteran plyers who know his system but cannot develop younger players. His comeuppance will be Game 3 where he has to rely on guys that he hasn't developed and effectively dissed by benching in Games 1 and 2.
Also Bob Myers came into the season with an inadequate roster (no third center or third PF) to the point where the two way players are staples for much of the season. Then at the trade deadline he takes back an injured player (another guard!) and doesn't get any size. Contrast with the trade deadline acquistions of the Lakers and Clippers.
Not sure where the W's go from here. They need to move on from Draymond and certainly shouldn't pay Klay anywhere near the max (not a two way player anymore). Where does that leave Steph Curry when he wouldn't have his two running mates and a non-championship roster around him?
Transitioning is hard. As long as Curry is around, Warriors will look to surround him with veterans.
I’m not going to criticize a guy with 9 rings by suggesting he doesn’t know how to “develop “ young players. He’s knows a bit more than I.
I know those that are very critical of Kerr for his handling of the Draymond sucker punch. That criticism strikes me as perhaps more valid. Green should have been suspended during the regular season and heavily fined.
The Wiseman pick hurt. He may be a good player someday. But he was incredibly raw before the injuries. And the Warriors couldn’t afford to let him learn on the court. The Pistons can. It’s usually a team like the Pistons picking second. I think if they had a chance to do it again they’d trade down and see if they can pick up a role player. But hindsight is 20-20. And Myers has done a tremendous job.
Warriors are so far over the tax that it is somewhat limiting. Not sure who could have been a third 4 or 5. Not sure a whole lot of teams have that kind of depth. Particularly with the high salaries. Myers biggest mistake, in hindsight, was the Wiseman pick. Second biggest maynhave been the Poole extension.
As for deadline deals - cap issues are always a factor. Plus, we have no clue what he tried to do.
Poole has developed quite well. Offensively. He stinks defensively. And worse, he’s indifferent defensively. Kuminga shows promise. He’s also 20. The rest of the young players are mid to late picks with marginal talent.
They had a great run.
RE: lex24 - Chupacabra - 04-19-2023
Though my primary affiliation has changed to the Warriors chief villain, I'm still deeply a fan of the team in Oakland San Francisco. I've been nothing but impressed with Kuminga and don't really understand why he's less of a factor. Any time he's out there he seems to be doing great things so it's confusing to me why he's not getting the minutes.
Is it a positional fit thing? I've only seen him a few times but I see him as a long, athletic combo forward who can make plays and is already a solid defender with the potential to be a great defender. He's young but has fresh legs on an affordable deal who could plug in next to Steph...particularly in pick and roll with Steph. I know there's a lot of gravity toward Steph and Klay in the offense but it seems like Kuminga might thrive as a scorer in ways Draymond never has. I love Draymond but are his minutes cutting too much into Kuminga at this point? have I only seen good Kuminga?
Klay has similar career scoring numbers but has his defense dropped as much as it seems? He was one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA and you never hear that now.
I'm still hoping for a Grizz/Warriors series...will y'all make sure they take these next two at home?
(04-19-2023, 03:45 PM)lex24 Wrote: Transitioning is hard. As long as Curry is around, Warriors will look to surround him with veterans.
I’m not going to criticize a guy with 9 rings by suggesting he doesn’t know how to “develop “ young players. He’s knows a bit more than I.
I know those that are very critical of Kerr for his handling of the Draymond sucker punch. That criticism strikes me as perhaps more valid. Green should have been suspended during the regular season and heavily fined.
The Wiseman pick hurt. He may be a good player someday. But he was incredibly raw before the injuries. And the Warriors couldn’t afford to let him learn on the court. The Pistons can. It’s usually a team like the Pistons picking second. I think if they had a chance to do it again they’d trade down and see if they can pick up a role player. But hindsight is 20-20. And Myers has done a tremendous job.
Warriors are so far over the tax that it is somewhat limiting. Not sure who could have been a third 4 or 5. Not sure a whole lot of teams have that kind of depth. Particularly with the high salaries. Myers biggest mistake, in hindsight, was the Wiseman pick. Second biggest maynhave been the Poole extension.
As for deadline deals - cap issues are always a factor. Plus, we have no clue what he tried to do.
Poole has developed quite well. Offensively. He stinks defensively. And worse, he’s indifferent defensively. Kuminga shows promise. He’s also 20. The rest of the young players are mid to late picks with marginal talent.
They had a great run.
RE: lex24 - lex24 - 04-20-2023
(04-19-2023, 10:57 PM)Chupacabra Wrote: Though my primary affiliation has changed to the Warriors chief villain, I'm still deeply a fan of the team in Oakland San Francisco. I've been nothing but impressed with Kuminga and don't really understand why he's less of a factor. Any time he's out there he seems to be doing great things so it's confusing to me why he's not getting the minutes.
Is it a positional fit thing? I've only seen him a few times but I see him as a long, athletic combo forward who can make plays and is already a solid defender with the potential to be a great defender. He's young but has fresh legs on an affordable deal who could plug in next to Steph...particularly in pick and roll with Steph. I know there's a lot of gravity toward Steph and Klay in the offense but it seems like Kuminga might thrive as a scorer in ways Draymond never has. I love Draymond but are his minutes cutting too much into Kuminga at this point? have I only seen good Kuminga?
Klay has similar career scoring numbers but has his defense dropped as much as it seems? He was one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA and you never hear that now.
I'm still hoping for a Grizz/Warriors series...will y'all make sure they take these next two at home?
(04-19-2023, 03:45 PM)lex24 Wrote: Transitioning is hard. As long as Curry is around, Warriors will look to surround him with veterans.
I’m not going to criticize a guy with 9 rings by suggesting he doesn’t know how to “develop “ young players. He’s knows a bit more than I.
I know those that are very critical of Kerr for his handling of the Draymond sucker punch. That criticism strikes me as perhaps more valid. Green should have been suspended during the regular season and heavily fined.
The Wiseman pick hurt. He may be a good player someday. But he was incredibly raw before the injuries. And the Warriors couldn’t afford to let him learn on the court. The Pistons can. It’s usually a team like the Pistons picking second. I think if they had a chance to do it again they’d trade down and see if they can pick up a role player. But hindsight is 20-20. And Myers has done a tremendous job.
Warriors are so far over the tax that it is somewhat limiting. Not sure who could have been a third 4 or 5. Not sure a whole lot of teams have that kind of depth. Particularly with the high salaries. Myers biggest mistake, in hindsight, was the Wiseman pick. Second biggest maynhave been the Poole extension.
As for deadline deals - cap issues are always a factor. Plus, we have no clue what he tried to do.
Poole has developed quite well. Offensively. He stinks defensively. And worse, he’s indifferent defensively. Kuminga shows promise. He’s also 20. The rest of the young players are mid to late picks with marginal talent.
They had a great run.
Kuminga is going to get his chance. My hope is Draymond opt out and leaves. Enough is enough.
Klay is not close to the defender he was before the injuries. Not surprising. Achilles and ACL is a tough combo. That he’s come back as well as he has is impressive.
RE: NBA Discussion - Leftcoast - 04-20-2023
Kuminga has an athleticism and bounce that jumps out at you on his good plays but he doesn't naturally fulfill what the Warriors need, especially in a game without Draymond Green.
He isn't a natural rebounder and he's on a team that wants to play small and has other long players that also don't rebound well. (Looking at you Andrew Wiggins!). He's become a good one-on-one defender but at this point in his career he doesn't have the court awareness to be a good help defender. He also doesn't have a good outside shot so he tends to live near the basket and clog up the driving lanes the team wants to have left open for Steph, Poole, and Thompson. So far he's had a negative plus-minus in both playoff games. This isn’t surprising-he’s 20 years old and next year would have been his Junior year in college in a parallel universe.
So, the Warriors need him tonight and he will have an opportunity to stay on the court. My advice, go get a few rebounds - Steve Kerr values that and NEEDS it tonight. Bonus minutes if you can play good defense on Sabonis and keep the ball moving when it comes to you. Next year is your year to have more plays designed for you.
RE: NBA Discussion - McKenwood - 04-20-2023
(04-20-2023, 09:30 AM)Leftcoast Wrote: Kuminga has an athleticism and bounce that jumps out at you on his good plays but he doesn't naturally fulfill what the Warriors need, especially in a game without Draymond Green.
He isn't a natural rebounder and he's on a team that wants to play small and has other long players that also don't rebound well. (Looking at you Andrew Wiggins!). He's become a good one-on-one defender but at this point in his career he doesn't have the court awareness to be a good help defender. He also doesn't have a good outside shot so he tends to live near the basket and clog up the driving lanes the team wants to have left open for Steph, Poole, and Thompson. So far he's had a negative plus-minus in both playoff games. This isn’t surprising-he’s 20 years old and next year would have been his Junior year in college in a parallel universe.
So, the Warriors need him tonight and he will have an opportunity to stay on the court. My advice, go get a few rebounds - Steve Kerr values that and NEEDS it tonight. Bonus minutes if you can play good defense on Sabonis and keep the ball moving when it comes to you. Next year is your year to have more plays designed for you.
Fair analysis of Kuminga but incomplete. JK is one of the few Warriors who can drive to the basket effectively. When Steph gets the double team it should end up with a layup for JK after the release pass. But of course Kerr never let this happen so the Warrior offense has struggled mightly against a barely average defensive team lacking rim protection. Other than Poole and Curry there are no great drivers on this team. Draymond refuses to look for his shot when he gets in the lane so sometimes he makes a decent pass but often turns it over. I'd also say despite the Game 2 performance Kuminga is one of the better defenders on the Warriors. Not at Draymond or Wiggins level but certainly better than the Warriors top three guards.
I can accept giving up on Wiseman as I'm not sure his skills would ever have fit with the Warriors since they don't run a lot of pick and roll. Nor did he have the awareness defensively. Kerr had all season to get Moody and Kuminga ready for the playoffs and he has failed. Now he is stuck and has to rely on them in Game 3.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 04-20-2023
Ugh, Clippers...soooo predictable! And Game 4 is at 12:30 PT Saturday, so Leonard very well could be out that game too. Suns opened -2.5. This news has ballooned it to -7.5.
[tweet]https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status/1649136648918016000?s=20[/tweet]
Warriors now -6.5 over Kings.
I love how the Warriors list Wiggins, Poole , and GP2 Questionable, almost gamesmanship for Sabonis laughably being listed Questionable for Kings.
Anyway, to me, Kuminga is the key for the Warriors to win. Like Poole, he plays better when he starts. Hopefully the lineup looks like this:
Starters: Looney, Kuminga, Wiggins, Thompson, Curry
Bench: Poole, GP2, JMike, DDV, Moody
RE: NBA Discussion - French Rage - 04-20-2023
Wait Sabonis is able to play???!!!! I though they had him on a ventilator after that critical damage to his upper torso!!!!
RE: NBA Discussion - cardcrimson - 04-20-2023
(04-20-2023, 07:22 PM)French Rage Wrote: Wait Sabonis is able to play???!!!! I though they had him on a ventilator after that critical damage to his upper torso!!!!
And amazingly, they have him mic'd for the game.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 04-21-2023
I'm still a fan of the Philadelphia, Oakland, San Francisco Warriors, too.
Kuminga is outrebounded by both Steph Curry and DDV on a rebounds/minute measure. And patrick Baldwin, Jr. for that matter. He's on a steep learning curve for rebounding, but my sense is that his stock is skyrocketing in all other ways. He can rebound more than Wiggins, Moody or Klay. JK is middle of the pack of the team in most conventional metrics on a per minute basis, little bit high on the fouls, but middle of the pack on the rest. And he's improving. I'd like to see him more.
That team is a turnover machine. Poole, Curry and Draymond are the #3-#5 highest turnover creators on that team.
How did Sabonis manage to play almost 35 minutes after his sternum was crushed? Oh right, he did the Euro Soccer acting thing. Got away with it, too.
Warriors shot poorly (40% / 32% from 3), but won by 17, due to defense, 59 rebounds, 12 steals, and just 11 turnovers.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 04-21-2023
That was the first playoff game both Moody and Kuminga played large roles that led to a Warriors win. Will it be the first of many? It looks to me like Kuminga needs more consistent minutes to be effective and Moody has mastered being able to play with ambiguous minutes.
The Warriors now have two undersized post players who can dominate the game without scoring in Green and Looney. Can y'all think of any other NBA team who has even one such player? After watching that game, my big takeaway for the W's coaches is they should never play Looney and Green together and Green should only ever play small ball 5.
I don't know how this would work out in terms of mixing and matching others, but I think Wiggins and Kuminga should be the 4 options, not Green, because if he plays 4, Looney has to play 5, and then you have two guys who can't shoot on the floor at same time, which hurts spacing and make the cutting game more difficult.
Could it be time to bring Draymond off the bench?
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 04-21-2023
(04-21-2023, 06:39 AM)Mick Wrote: I'm still a fan of the Philadelphia, Oakland, San Francisco Warriors, too.
Kuminga is outrebounded by both Steph Curry and DDV on a rebounds/minute measure. And patrick Baldwin, Jr. for that matter. He's on a steep learning curve for rebounding, but my sense is that his stock is skyrocketing in all other ways. He can rebound more than Wiggins, Moody or Klay. JK is middle of the pack of the team in most conventional metrics on a per minute basis, little bit high on the fouls, but middle of the pack on the rest. And he's improving. I'd like to see him more.
That team is a turnover machine. Poole, Curry and Draymond are the #3-#5 highest turnover creators on that team.
How did Sabonis manage to play almost 35 minutes after his sternum was crushed? Oh right, he did the Euro Soccer acting thing. Got away with it, too.
Warriors shot poorly (40% / 32% from 3), but won by 17, due to defense, 59 rebounds, 12 steals, and just 11 turnovers.
I love the defense of Green. Basically because it’s indefensible. Are you gonna defend him for sucker punching Poole? Really didn’t matter if he “crushed Sabonis, sternum“ nor that he stayed down maybe a little longer than he should. Green was good for it. Didn’t help that afterwards he egged on the crowd, etc. And as Dumars comments suggested, this was, in many respects, the equivalent of a “lifetime achievement award.“
Let’s face it, if he were playing for anybody but the Warriors you (we) wouldn’t be able to stand the guy. And frankly, I’ve got to the point where I don’t like him much anyway and I’m more than ready to see him go.
The fact is they were better without him yesterday. Be interesting to see what they do moving forward. I happen to agree with OF that they’re best suited to have only one of Looney and Green on the floor at the same time against this team, which is not good defensively. Kerr is in a difficult position. Because Looney was tremendous. So, who knows what he does going forward.
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 04-21-2023
(04-21-2023, 08:10 AM)lex24 Wrote: So, who knows what he does going forward.
It would be great to unload Green this off-season, but what team would pay him enough to cause him to decline his option?
And Klay is still making all-NBA money, which will make him difficult to unload as well.
Not a lot of good options for avoiding a massive luxury tax hit next year, but the team should find a way to reduce its payroll. Ownership shouldn’t pay 500mm for a first round exit.
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 04-21-2023
(04-21-2023, 08:23 AM)TrumpCard Wrote:(04-21-2023, 08:10 AM)lex24 Wrote: So, who knows what he does going forward.
It would be great to unload Green this off-season, but what team would pay him enough to cause him to decline his option?
And Klay is still making all-NBA money, which will make him difficult to unload as well.
Not a lot of good options for avoiding a massive luxury tax hit next year, but the team should find a way to reduce its payroll. Ownership shouldn’t pay 500mm for a first round exit.
Yep. I agree completely with you. I heard Tolbert talking about this the other day, and he thinks they will strip down fairly heavily. But as long as they have Curry, not just a generational talent, he’s a once in a lifetime talent, they are going to try to put veteran pieces around him that gives them a chance to win a championship. Kind of like what the Giants did with Bonds for many many years.
My guess is that Green will exercise his option. Because I don’t think he get that kind of money on the open market. He’s more valuable to the Warriors than any other team because of his history and because of his relationship on the floor with Curry. And I don’t think a whole lot of teams are going to want to put up with the bullshit. In fact, listening to Bob Myers, I think the Warriors are pretty tired of it.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 04-21-2023
(04-21-2023, 08:10 AM)lex24 Wrote: I love the defense of Green. Basically because it’s indefensible. Are you gonna defend him for sucker punching Poole? Really didn’t matter if he “crushed Sabonis, sternum“ nor that he stayed down maybe a little longer than he should. Green was good for it. Didn’t help that afterwards he egged on the crowd, etc. And as Dumars comments suggested, this was, in many respects, the equivalent of a “lifetime achievement award.“
Interesting. I was under the understanding that the NBA had already disciplined him for his lifetime achievements, so to speak. Double jeopardy is alive and well in the NBA? We don't like you, so we'll suspend you?
Draymond is effective. The Warriors' W/L record is much, much better when Green is available to play than when he's injured. And yes, I'm not wild about Draymond Green myself. I thought punching Poole was a seriously bad move, I think tangling with your coach (verbally) is a really bad move, and I think he ran Durant off the team, a spectacularly bad move -- because Draymond wanted to be "the guy." I also think the W's lost at least one championship (which Draymond has publicly admitted) because of his antics, and maybe two.
He'll re-sign with the Warriors. There's no way he'd get anywhere close to that money from another team. I suspect Myers is praying that Draymond goes elsewhere as his skills decline and he turns into an unpleasant sideshow.
leftcoast - Leftcoast - 04-21-2023
I wouldn’t use last night’s game as proof that Golden State can swap in Looney and move on from Green.
The Kings and the match-up with Sabonis (who is no threat from the arc) are uniquely suited for Looney’s skillset and not Green’s 2-5 defensive flexibility.
RE: leftcoast - lex24 - 04-21-2023
(04-21-2023, 10:42 AM)Leftcoast Wrote: I wouldn’t use last night’s game as proof that Golden State can swap in Looney and move on from Green.
The Kings and the match-up with Sabonis (who is no threat from the arc) are uniquely suited for Looney’s skillset and not Green’s 2-5 defensive flexibility.
Yes. Not suggesting can swap Looney for Green. Just that in this matchup, they may be better off with just 1 of them on the floor.
RE: NBA Discussion - jacket3ree - 04-21-2023
Kinda cool how the Warriors got Christian Laettner out of the portal. (Duke was gifted a title when he wasn't <rim> kicked <shot> out of that regional final.)
Good opportunity to dump Green, but if he takes that option, who takes him and what do the Warriors get in return besides being rid of Green.
The Warriors looked like the Warriors last night, but that was probably more Chase than Draymond's absence. No way to figure out why anything is the way it is in a playoff series. The Warriors home/road split is crazy this year. I don't think even they know why that is.
If the Warriors survive and advance, the next round is uber interesting either way. Grizzlies or Lakers. I can't predict Dubs-Kings or Grizz-Showtime either way, so good entertainment.
I do like the Kings, although Sabonis is annoying. Sure wish Harrison Barnes was that fired up in 2016.
Re: Green-Looney: one thought is that Green's absence is an opportunity to put four scorers on the floor with Looney instead of three and that opens up everything. Ironically defense won the game last night.