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Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - jacketree - 06-08-2016

This is a well thought-out thread on a really tragic subject.

My initial thoughts were that this swimmer really, really deserves some time at Soledad, Avenal, Coalinga, Corcoran, Folsom, or Pelican Bay with the Chuckster as a neighbor.  They are still my thoughts tempered with the reality that justice isn't based on what people on social media are screaming at any particular time, and the judge and probation officer do this for a living, so....

I have no idea why Stanford released any statement other than 'this case was turned over to the appropriate judicial authority and the individual is no longer a student.' Saying you "did all we could" works on about zero levels, but I'm sure Stanford pays well for its council.

A few thoughts to what I find are particularly interesting observations and questions:

Quote:While doing everything apparently includes purging Turner's name from the 2014-2015 Stanford University swim roster, it does not include eliminating what all-too-often provides young male students with the means and opportunity to commit the crime of sexual assault -- fraternities that throw parties at which consumption of alcohol is a major emphasis. 

Fraternities - members thereof and the organizations themselves - often do stupid, stupid things. I know; I was in one.  But eliminating fraternities is not going to solve or even begin to solve (well, maybe begin) the problem of sexual assault on campus or in society.  Fraternities are not the only source of alcohol.  Both of my children graduated from institutions where there are no fraternities or sororities.  Sexual assault was a major problem at both places and at my son's school (USNA), sexual assault was a court-martial offense. They still had major scandals during his time there.  People will get drunk with or without fraternities and sororities.  And there is always a flip side.  The only face I've punched in my life belonged to some Brock Turner-like lowlife whom I caught molesting one of our little sisters, who was virtually comatose on one of the patio couches.  After I laid him out, a couple of us literally kicked him to the curb.  That was the end of that.  In retrospect we should have held him more accountable.  The victim was then "airlifted" into someone's empty bed for the night and we made sure she got home OK the next morning. 

Binge-drinking is a major problem.  I have some thoughts on that (starting with a reduced drinking age), but maybe that belongs in another thread that hasn't been started yet.  I never got pass-out drunk because at a certain point I would vomit first.  And I haven't done that in almost 30 years, so I've sort of forgotten the lure of drinking to such an excess you can't function.  How do we get that point across to middle school, high school and college age kids without basically tempting them to try?  "I'll never do that again" doesn't work for Turner, even if he would admit that what he did was abhorrent.

Quote:I think we all can agree using America's criminal justice system to prosecute campus-based sexual assaults is not the best way to permanently reduce violence against women.

Actually I think it might be.  Along with parents raising decent human beings and having that decency reinforced by others.  I don't know what my reaction, god forbid, would be if I was in that kid's father's shoes, but I can't imagine writing the letter that he did.

Quote:Institutional “stepping to the plate” about the deleterious effects of fraternity culture seems in order. 

The culture is both good and bad.  If I were in charge of a fraternity as I once was, I would instantaneously close every party to members only as a start.  That is of course, very hard to do in practice.

Quote:There is a lot of posting about how Stanford is negligent with out making it clear what Stanford does and does not do today. That information would make it a lot easier to think about and judge Stanford's positions on these issues.

Stanford will probably be sued for negligence, but their positions are pretty clear.  Even if they enforced a dry campus (see again USNA - totally dry on paper, but problems still happen), how could they limit their liability. At some point this assault was prosecuted by the appropriate jurisdiction - Santa Clara County. Is Stanford liable for bicycles stolen while on campus?

I won't Mick's query into whether that was rape, because you would have to have been one of the two parties to know for sure. Not sure how they would come out in trial.  Honestly, I think a lot of us have been in an identical situation.  So much grey area. Ironically (I suppose) I just completed my one-hour of State mandated harassment training. Most of the samples they used to test us are so egregious you know they are actionable harassment claims. Everyone gets quid pro quo ('sleep with me or you are fired'). They don't do too much in the way of subtle everyday problems.  I did miss one question.  Apparently flirtation in the office is "inevitable".  Man, I must be a total loser.





Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - oldalum - 06-08-2016

(06-08-2016, 11:51 AM)robin link Wrote:In case Yvonne's post's reference is missed, see the video "Tea and Consent" here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ
This is really good. However, it only addresses the easy alcohol situation of unconsciousness; much harder is how to assess and judge the effect of different levels of intoxication on consent.

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - CTcard - 06-08-2016

(06-08-2016, 04:54 PM)jacketree link Wrote:
Quote:I think we all can agree using America's criminal justice system to prosecute campus-based sexual assaults is not the best way to permanently reduce violence against women.

Actually I think it might be. 

I think it might be as well; at least the punishment part of dealing with, and thus presumably reducing, violence against women.

The Title IX alternative of having universities run a parallel justice system is running into lots of problems. Universities don't have judges, lawyers, expert, or the legal status for running such a system. It's costing beaucoup bucks and seems to be leading to a ton of bad situations and lawsuits. 

There are some counter-arguments I am sympathetic towards, but in practice I don't think those win out.

Quote:
Quote:There is a lot of posting about how Stanford is negligent with out making it clear what Stanford does and does not do today. That information would make it a lot easier to think about and judge Stanford's positions on these issues.

Stanford will probably be sued for negligence, but their positions are pretty clear.  Even if they enforced a dry campus (see again USNA - totally dry on paper, but problems still happen), how could they limit their liability. At some point this assault was prosecuted by the appropriate jurisdiction - Santa Clara County. Is Stanford liable for bicycles stolen while on campus?

Generally, Stanford is required to investigate and adjudicate charges of sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape by it's students. In many cases, it doesn't even matter if the incident took place off campus. Or at least that is the interpretation of the US Department of Education and it's directive to universities. Thus these are not the same as stolen bicycles.

It is possible that in this case Stanford won't be sued ... well, actually it probably will be sued but it is not clear to me whether Stanford has the same Title IX obligations in this case since the victim is not (and was not) a Stanford student. As far as I can tell from the now famous Dear Colleague Letter from the Dept of Education, non-students are not mentioned.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201104.pdf


Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - winflop - 06-08-2016

Stanford won't be sued, but they are NOT doing everything they can contrary to their statements.

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - CTcard - 06-08-2016

Here is a little bit of wider fallout.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/09/nyregion/drummer-defends-stanford-student-convicted-in-rape-case-her-band-pays-a-price.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - fullmetal - 06-09-2016

She may have thought she was fighting against an oppressive system of retributive justice...if her intentions were good, well, no good deed goes unpunished.  (Public record, eh?)

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - indiancardinal - 06-09-2016

I really appreciate this thread for all the things I am learning. I am one among those who have almost zero knowledge of the system works but firmly believe that 3 months is way way too little in terms of a punishment from the system. I am living and working in a part of the world where Mr. Turner would now be appealing a death sentence if he were tried and convicted here.

Anyway this thread got me thinking  on the  the longer term punishment he  is going to endure living outside prison. A question to lawyers... Are convicted rapists / sex offenders allowed to change their names? Do they have the "right to be forgotten" ie ask Google to remove links about them?

I know millenials have a very short attention span but I think Brock Turner, his father, and legal counsel  have ensured that Brock is going to serve a life sentence in public. All thanks to an empowered victim. I am saving the "Tea video" and the letter for when its time for me to do my part in educating my son on the topic.

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - 82lsju - 06-09-2016

some more details on the sentence and whether it was justified and should the judge be recalled from today's SJMN

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_29993496/q-stanford-sex-case-sentence-will-da-appeal

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - oldalum - 06-09-2016

(06-09-2016, 12:10 AM)fullmetal link Wrote:She may have thought she was fighting against an oppressive system of retributive justice...if her intentions were good, well, no good deed goes unpunished.  (Public record, eh?)
This is an example of how ordinary citizens often (understandably) don't understand the context and rules when they interact with the legal system. Parts of her letter--some of what people are reacting negatively to--address why she thinks he was innocent. Of course that type of argument does not belong in her letter. She also did not understand the letter could be made public. She is probably being made to suffer unduly because of her lack of understanding.

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - stupac2 - 06-09-2016

(06-09-2016, 07:28 AM)eric link Wrote:some more details on the sentence and whether it was justified and should the judge be recalled from today's SJMN

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_29993496/q-stanford-sex-case-sentence-will-da-appeal

This isn't a direct rebuttal to that article, but I thought it was an interesting juxtaposition: http://www.vox.com/2016/6/9/11889472/stanford-sexual-assault-brock-turner

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - Mick - 06-09-2016

(06-08-2016, 02:19 PM)fullmetal link Wrote:[quote author=martyup link=topic=15166.msg164674#msg164674 date=1465417210]Mick is right.  It's getting very perilous out there for young men who just want to get laid.

Is it?  Or maybe it's just getting perilous for those young men to get laid on their own terms with specific people regardless of consent.  Consenting young adults are not a rare type of person on a college campus.
[/quote]

Without consent, it's rape, period.  That's the black side of a black-and-white issue and men and women who demand sex without consent are doing a very bad thing.  Any time one party says "no" or "please don't" it's pretty crystal clear.

I'm interested in the gray area, what constitutes consent both proferred and withheld.  I think it can be a moving target.

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - robin - 06-09-2016

CTCard, in my opinion Leslie Rasmussen was/is trying to add nuance to a situation that is in need of it, just as I think the New York Daily News’ post about Corey Batey’s sentence vis a vis Brock Turner’s is trying to emphasize the need for balance in what I perceive to be a current war in America that is closely linked with issues of gender and race that date back at least to David Starr Jordan/Edward Ross/Charles Eliot/Robert Millikan’s support of the 20th century movement that disproportionately impacted female reproductive rights.  See http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-brock-turner-cory-batey-show-race-affects-sentencing-article-1.2664945,  http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/25/nation/la-na-forced-sterilization-20120126, and the pamphlet of the "Human Betterment Foundation" the Library of Congress uploaded to the Internet, https://www.loc.gov/resource/rbpe.0020380g/.  Although individuals posting to social media may be stating the right thing about there being no reason to distinguish between men who rape based on insecurity, peer pressure etc. vs. men who rape because of misogynist, violent tendencies, I remain disturbed how the collective furor that social media can create also can chill constitutional rights.

While researching Stanford’s ban on sororities (I now cannot find reference to the woman’s suicide that most believe contributed to the ban), I came across Mark Bessen’s opinion piece for the October 2014 Stanford Daily, which I think is worth reading (along with its comments) for current information on Stanford’s Greek System.  See http://www.stanforddaily.com/2014/10/01/a-call-to-end-housed-greek-life-at-stanford/.  Another article I came across is the one The Guardian published May 7, 2016 on how Harvard will bar members of fraternities and sororities from fellowships and leadership roles in an effort to prevent sexual discrimination.  See http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/may/07/harvard-fraternity-sorority-leadership-ban-drew-faust.  (Though The Atlantic decries the Harvard sanctions as deeply flawed, this magazine also states they are promising in their intentions.)

Indiancardinal, our family too is struggling with the Brock Turner case.  Yesterday I asked our older daughter what she thinks Stanford could do to lead the way.  She said now the case has gone viral the university should bring Turner to campus to talk with incoming freshman about his experience.  My husband and I agree, but our younger daughter thinks until Turner shows he understands he assaulted someone -- and how assault differs from drinking/sexual promiscuity -- bringing him to Stanford to talk with freshmen should not happen.  Tea and Consent published after Turner committed his crime. 

I welcome thoughts on this, especially in light of stupac2 and Mick's recent postings.


Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - stupac2 - 06-09-2016

Turner would need to show a lot more contrition until I'd want him anywhere near incoming students.

Then again, I'm 7 years out of school and my kid is 6 weeks old, so I don't have a lot of perspective on these issues as a student or a parent.

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - stupac2 - 06-09-2016

Not sure if this is the thread for it, but Joe Biden wrote the victim an open letter: https://www.buzzfeed.com/tomnamako/joe-biden-writes-an-open-letter-to-stanford-survivor?utm_term=.qk6pDYx87#.aaeqNmz4y

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - CornFed - 06-09-2016

And now they're finding that Brock Turner was not an innocent Midwestern naif:

http://my.xfinity.com/video/brock-turner-rape-case-court-docs-show-history-of-drug-alcohol-use/702059075573/Comcast/Today_in_Video?cid=hero_sf_TIV_stanford


Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - stupac2 - 06-09-2016

(06-09-2016, 11:10 AM)CornFed link Wrote:And now they're finding that Brock Turner was not an innocent Midwestern naif:

http://my.xfinity.com/video/brock-turner-rape-case-court-docs-show-history-of-drug-alcohol-use/702059075573/Comcast/Today_in_Video?cid=hero_sf_TIV_stanford

I was thinking about this earlier, in reference to "campus party culture", that he seemed like he probably came from a similar-ish background to me. And if that were the case the odds that this was his first exposure to that type of party were close to 0. College students don't have a monopoly on boozy, druggy house parties. Generally speaking white suburbia is lousy with that type of thing. Is it easier to do them on campus? Sure. But it's not hard to find them in high school either.

"Campus party culture" was obviously a stupid scapegoat regardless, but it's particularly stupid if you know anything about high school students. (Of course, maybe Turner didn't go to those parties, but it would be surprising, and apparently he did.)

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - dabigv13 - 06-09-2016

The guy sounds like a dirt bag, and on a visceral level I'd be sort of glad if he ended up in federal, pound you in the a prison. On the other hand, being placed on the sexual offender registry is way worse than 3 mos, 6 mos, 5 years of prison. Considering how overcrowded our prisons already are, and how unlikely the difference between 3 mos or 2 years would have on this guy's recidivism, I have a hard time getting worked up about the judges sentence.

To me it seems the people who are pushing for reducing prison sentences and overcrowding, overlap with the people who wish this guy was left to rot.

I think the accusation that the judge can't be fair because he was a former Stanford athlete, also contrasts interestingly with Trumps idiotic claims about the judge in the Trump University case.

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - BostonCard - 06-09-2016

(06-09-2016, 11:26 AM)dabigv link Wrote:To me it seems the people who are pushing for reducing prison sentences and overcrowding, overlap with the people who wish this guy was left to rot.


Those are not necessarily mutually incompatible positions.  One can believe that we ought to reduce the length of incarceration specifically for non-violent drug offenses, but not for violent crimes.  Or, more specifically, that this specific sentence was too short, even if most sentences are too long.

BC

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - BostonCard - 06-09-2016

(06-09-2016, 06:08 AM)indiancardinal link Wrote:I really appreciate this thread for all the things I am learning. I am one among those who have almost zero knowledge of the system works but firmly believe that 3 months is way way too little in terms of a punishment from the system. I am living and working in a part of the world where Mr. Turner would now be appealing a death sentence if he were tried and convicted here.

Anyway this thread got me thinking  on the  the longer term punishment he  is going to endure living outside prison. A question to lawyers... Are convicted rapists / sex offenders allowed to change their names? Do they have the "right to be forgotten" ie ask Google to remove links about them?

I know millenials have a very short attention span but I think Brock Turner, his father, and legal counsel  have ensured that Brock is going to serve a life sentence in public. All thanks to an empowered victim. I am saving the "Tea video" and the letter for when its time for me to do my part in educating my son on the topic.

Nobody enjoys a right to be forgotten in the US.  In Europe, there exists such a right, but not in the US.  Google searches for Brock Turner will link to coverage of his rape,  probably for the rest of the internet.

I believe there is nothing stopping him from changing his name, but a background check would reveal former names.

BC

Re: Larger question re. sexual violence and Brock Turner - fullmetal - 06-09-2016

Can't access the video (firewalls at work), but I assume it shows that Turner was a partier in HS...luckily for him up to a certain point that he could party and train well for swimming.