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Re: Targeting.... - martyup - 09-25-2016

(09-25-2016, 03:05 PM)jeboody link Wrote:My friend does sports photography in the LA area and not really sure how he captured this. They should send this to the officials.

https://instagram.com/p/BKyUOc-BUlH/

This photo proves that he led with the crown of his helmet and hit Owusu in the head.  Also, this was not a case when the ball carrier dropped his head before the contact.  This scumbag,  Goodman, rose up with his head to strike an erect Owusu.  This is what everyone is trying to prevent.  This is exactly what the rules try to address.  Terrible non-call on the field.  Pathetic call on the review.

Re: Targeting.... - Spiny_Norman - 09-25-2016

(09-25-2016, 03:37 PM)82 Card link Wrote:[quote author=jeboody link=topic=15760.msg173200#msg173200 date=1474841130]
My friend does sports photography in the LA area and not really sure how he captured this. They should send this to the officials.

https://instagram.com/p/BKyUOc-BUlH/

The rule only says that the crown is the top of the helmet. How far along the curvature of the helmet still counts as the top? I don't see a functional reason to distinguish the portion of the helmet that hit Owusu from the top but a homer for UCLA might.
[/quote]

From the rule that MT quoted - "When in doubt, it is a foul."

Re: Targeting.... - Spiny_Norman - 09-25-2016

(09-25-2016, 03:37 PM)82 Card link Wrote:[quote author=jeboody link=topic=15760.msg173200#msg173200 date=1474841130]
My friend does sports photography in the LA area and not really sure how he captured this. They should send this to the officials.

https://instagram.com/p/BKyUOc-BUlH/

The rule only says that the crown is the top of the helmet. How far along the curvature of the helmet still counts as the top? I don't see a functional reason to distinguish the portion of the helmet that hit Owusu from the top but a homer for UCLA might.
[/quote]

From the rule that MT quoted - "When in doubt, it is a foul."

Re: Targeting.... - 82 Card - 09-25-2016

(09-25-2016, 03:43 PM)Spiny_Norman link Wrote:From the rule that MT quoted - "When in doubt, it is a foul."

A literalist would have no doubt that the picture does not show a hit with the very top.

Re: Targeting.... - 82 Card - 09-25-2016

(09-25-2016, 03:43 PM)Spiny_Norman link Wrote:From the rule that MT quoted - "When in doubt, it is a foul."

A literalist would have no doubt that the picture does not show a hit with the very top.

Re: Targeting.... - martyup - 09-25-2016

(09-25-2016, 03:55 PM)82 Card link Wrote:[quote author=Spiny_Norman link=topic=15760.msg173215#msg173215 date=1474843390]
From the rule that MT quoted - "When in doubt, it is a foul."

A literalist would have no doubt that the picture does not show a hit with the very top.
[/quote]

The "crown" is not the top of the helmet.  It is the area from just above the facemask to the top center of the helmet.  The photo illustrates a perfect crown impact.  I know this because I was taught to lead with the crown when tackling back in the 70s at the Offense/Defense football camps.  I was taught by pro and college coaches.  This used to be considered proper technique.  It helped me become an All CIF linebacker in HS.  This was before this technique was linked to TBI.

Re: Targeting.... - martyup - 09-25-2016

(09-25-2016, 03:55 PM)82 Card link Wrote:[quote author=Spiny_Norman link=topic=15760.msg173215#msg173215 date=1474843390]
From the rule that MT quoted - "When in doubt, it is a foul."

A literalist would have no doubt that the picture does not show a hit with the very top.
[/quote]

The "crown" is not the top of the helmet.  It is the area from just above the facemask to the top center of the helmet.  The photo illustrates a perfect crown impact.  I know this because I was taught to lead with the crown when tackling back in the 70s at the Offense/Defense football camps.  I was taught by pro and college coaches.  This used to be considered proper technique.  It helped me become an All CIF linebacker in HS.  This was before this technique was linked to TBI.

Re: Targeting.... - 82 Card - 09-25-2016

(09-25-2016, 04:08 PM)martyup link Wrote:[quote author=82 Card link=topic=15760.msg173216#msg173216 date=1474844123]
[quote author=Spiny_Norman link=topic=15760.msg173215#msg173215 date=1474843390]
From the rule that MT quoted - "When in doubt, it is a foul."

A literalist would have no doubt that the picture does not show a hit with the very top.
[/quote]

The "crown" is not the top of the helmet.  It is the area from just above the facemask to the top center of the helmet.  The photo illustrates a perfect crown impact.  I know this because I was taught to lead with the crown when tackling back in the 70s at the Offense/Defense football camps.  I was taught by pro and college coaches.  This used to be considered proper technique.  It helped me become an All CIF linebacker in HS.  This was before this technique was linked to TBI.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, the rule says: "Crown of the Helmet—the top portion of the helmet." While your interpretation makes sense and is not inconsistent with the rule, which is supposed to be interpreted broadly, the rule writers could have done a better job.

My playing days were also in the 70's. Much of what I learned would be illegal now. On the other hand, a lot of things that would get flagged as holding now seem to be OK.

Re: Targeting.... - 82 Card - 09-25-2016

(09-25-2016, 04:08 PM)martyup link Wrote:[quote author=82 Card link=topic=15760.msg173216#msg173216 date=1474844123]
[quote author=Spiny_Norman link=topic=15760.msg173215#msg173215 date=1474843390]
From the rule that MT quoted - "When in doubt, it is a foul."

A literalist would have no doubt that the picture does not show a hit with the very top.
[/quote]

The "crown" is not the top of the helmet.  It is the area from just above the facemask to the top center of the helmet.  The photo illustrates a perfect crown impact.  I know this because I was taught to lead with the crown when tackling back in the 70s at the Offense/Defense football camps.  I was taught by pro and college coaches.  This used to be considered proper technique.  It helped me become an All CIF linebacker in HS.  This was before this technique was linked to TBI.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, the rule says: "Crown of the Helmet—the top portion of the helmet." While your interpretation makes sense and is not inconsistent with the rule, which is supposed to be interpreted broadly, the rule writers could have done a better job.

My playing days were also in the 70's. Much of what I learned would be illegal now. On the other hand, a lot of things that would get flagged as holding now seem to be OK.

Re: Targeting.... - martyup - 09-25-2016

The picture shows "the top portion" of his helmet striking Owusu's head.  That type of hit has been called pretty consistently over the last couple of years.  It's really not a grey area hit.  They just got it wrong.

Look at Owusu's face in that photo.  Imagine what is happening to his brain at that moment.  This is what football is trying to avoid.

Re: Targeting.... - martyup - 09-25-2016

The picture shows "the top portion" of his helmet striking Owusu's head.  That type of hit has been called pretty consistently over the last couple of years.  It's really not a grey area hit.  They just got it wrong.

Look at Owusu's face in that photo.  Imagine what is happening to his brain at that moment.  This is what football is trying to avoid.

Re: Targeting.... - dabigv13 - 09-25-2016

The literal top of his helmet is impacting the facemask. That is hitting with the crown of the helmet, no doubt.

Where does a crown sit on your head? Where would a crown sit on a helmet? The part that is smashing into the side of Owusu's head!

Re: Targeting.... - dabigv13 - 09-25-2016

The literal top of his helmet is impacting the facemask. That is hitting with the crown of the helmet, no doubt.

Where does a crown sit on your head? Where would a crown sit on a helmet? The part that is smashing into the side of Owusu's head!

Re: Targeting.... - BurgXXIII - 09-25-2016

Both extremes of incomprehensibly bad Pac-12 officiating were observed yesterday. A Cal player was flagged for targeting on a play against ASU in which no contact was made. This time, however, the replay official reversed the call.


Re: Targeting.... - BurgXXIII - 09-25-2016

Both extremes of incomprehensibly bad Pac-12 officiating were observed yesterday. A Cal player was flagged for targeting on a play against ASU in which no contact was made. This time, however, the replay official reversed the call.


Re: Targeting.... - 82 Card - 09-25-2016

I would like to think you guys are right because the alternative is not consistent with the purpose of the rule. However, I am bracing for some strained nonsense from the league and the NCAA. There's always room for nonsense when officials want to circle the wagons. If it's not that it wasn't the crown, it'll be something about saying they saw the shoulder hit first or some crap about not being conclusive. I have no faith that the right thing will be done. I wouldn't even be surprised if they retaliate against Shaw for his public comments at the game.

Re: Targeting.... - 82 Card - 09-25-2016

I would like to think you guys are right because the alternative is not consistent with the purpose of the rule. However, I am bracing for some strained nonsense from the league and the NCAA. There's always room for nonsense when officials want to circle the wagons. If it's not that it wasn't the crown, it'll be something about saying they saw the shoulder hit first or some crap about not being conclusive. I have no faith that the right thing will be done. I wouldn't even be surprised if they retaliate against Shaw for his public comments at the game.

Re: Targeting.... - dabigv13 - 09-25-2016

Unfortunately I think the likeliest outcome is we just don't hear anything. There was a bit of national press to the hit, but I think the Pac12 won't go out of their way to address it. Hope I'm wrong.

Re: Targeting.... - dabigv13 - 09-25-2016

Unfortunately I think the likeliest outcome is we just don't hear anything. There was a bit of national press to the hit, but I think the Pac12 won't go out of their way to address it. Hope I'm wrong.

Re: Targeting.... - CTcard - 09-25-2016

(09-25-2016, 09:17 AM)MT link Wrote:
Quote:RULES

Targeting and Initiating Contact With the Crown of the Helmet  (Rule 9-1-3)

No player shall target and initiate contact against an opponent with the crown (top) of his helmet. When in question, it is a foul.

Targeting and Initiating Contact to Head or Neck Area of a Defenseless Player  (Rule 9-1-4)

No player shall target and initiate contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent with the helmet, forearm, fist, elbow or shoulder. When in question, it is a foul.  (Rule 2-27-14)

KEY ELEMENTS
Crown of the Helmet—the top portion of the helmet.
Defenseless player—a player not in position to defend himself.


In my opinion, Owusu would not be ruled a defenseless player, because he had the ball and he had run a few steps after catching the ball. ...
The only thing I can think of is that the replay officials thought that a launch was a necessary part of targeting.
...
Further the replay officials should document why they ruled that it was not targeting, so this could be reviewed separately to avoid future errors by officials. 

The annoucement of the replay review covered the replay official's interpretation.

First he specifically mentioned that Owusu had "completed the catch and became a runner", so he was not by definition of defenseless player. That part of the call appears to be entirely correct.

Secondly, they stated that "there was no targeting with the crown of the helmet". While I guess technically there is some room to quibble about just what that covers, it seems to me pretty clear that what was meant was that Goodman didn't make contact with the crown of his helmet.

Now technically, there is some grey there because there is no useful definition anywhere in the rulebook about what is the crown of the helmet; i.e. the statement "the top portion of the helmet" is not a useful definition.
Goodman didn't initiate contact with the very top 1 inch circle or so of his helmet, but it would seem to me that anything above the facemask is reasonably the crown. Particularly given the extreme, and extremely dangerous, nature of the hit and the fact that the rule says "when in question it is a foul", I am rather shocked that this wasn't called targeting on the field and even moreso upon review. But, we don't have to guess about just exactly what the refs ruled, they told us.