McCaffrey no private workouts - Printable Version
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Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - SF_Cardinal_Fan - 04-22-2017
(04-21-2017, 02:55 PM)DC 86 link Wrote:[quote author=SF_Cardinal_Fan link=topic=16796.msg192095#msg192095 date=1492786129]Unfortunately this is not really true which is why quarterbacks are routinely overdrafted as teams desperately search for a capable player for that crucial position.
When the whole team package is excellent, that team is not so dependent on any one position. For example, the late great Bill Walsh had the 49ers offense moving well not just with Montana or Young, but also at times with Matt Cavanaugh, Jeff Kemp, and Steve Bono playing QB.
Steve Bono never played for Bill Walsh, joined the team after Walsh retired.
Jeff Kemp only played one season for the 49ers, as a backup to Joe Montana. Kemp started six games and the team's record was 3-2-1 under him (the team was 6-2 in games started by Montana that year).
Matt Cavanaugh was a career backup who started a grand total of two games in his 49ers career. He completed 61 passes over the course of his three year stint in SF.
I doubt that even Bill Walsh (one of the most brilliant offensive minds in football history) would have won a Super Bowl with Bono/Kemp/Cavanaugh (or DeBerg for that matter) as his starting quarterback.
The reality is that an elite quarterback is generally essential to winning a championship. The last 25 Super Bowls have been won by the following starting quarterbacks: Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Brett Favre, John Elway, Kurt Warner, Trent Dilfer, Tom Brady, Brad Johnson, Ben Roethlisberger, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Flacco and Russell Wilson.
Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, and Warner are in the Hall of Fame. Brady, Roethlisberger, the Mannings, Brees and Rodgers will almost certainly join them. The exceptions are Dilfer, Johnson, Flacco and Wilson who played with defenses that are considered historically good, among the most dominant units of all time (and Dilfer and Johnson were still Pro Bowlers albeit journeymen, while the book is not closed on Flacco and Wilson who are highly respected if not projected for the HoF.)
On the merits none of the quarterbacks in this year's draft class grade as first rounders but we will surely see at least three (and possibly five) drafted on the first day, perhaps as high as second overall! On the surface it doesn't make sense but the correlation between elite quarterback play and playoff success is so high that reaching is also understandable.
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Well, I disagree.
In my mind Bill Walsh could have, and would have, won Super Bowls with any number of reasonably competent QB's. Walsh consistently produced a true team effort which was not especially dependent on any one player or position. If one had to single out a position crucial to the success of a Bill Walsh team I would consider the entire offensive line to be that "position" (even though it's a unit of 5 guys rather than a single position).
As a pro Jim Plunkett was ineffective on the Patriots and his year or two with the 49ers. He had some great QB skills but they were only well utilized when he joined the good overall team, including OL, that Tom Flores had going for the Raiders.
For the first half of his pro career John Elway's performance did not produce many wins. Once Dan Reeves was fired Shannahan came in and got the Broncos playing well as a team.
Christian McCaffrey , as well as most all the other projected 1st and 2nd round draft picks, are all highly skilled world class athletes. Whether they have professional on field success, I think, is largely dependent on the competence of management, and coaching, of the team that drafts them.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - Mick - 04-22-2017
(04-21-2017, 02:55 PM)DC 86 link Wrote:[quote author=SF_Cardinal_Fan link=topic=16796.msg192095#msg192095 date=1492786129]Unfortunately this is not really true which is why quarterbacks are routinely overdrafted as teams desperately search for a capable player for that crucial position.
When the whole team package is excellent, that team is not so dependent on any one position. For example, the late great Bill Walsh had the 49ers offense moving well not just with Montana or Young, but also at times with Matt Cavanaugh, Jeff Kemp, and Steve Bono playing QB.
Steve Bono never played for Bill Walsh, joined the team after Walsh retired.
Jeff Kemp only played one season for the 49ers, as a backup to Joe Montana. Kemp started six games and the team's record was 3-2-1 under him (the team was 6-2 in games started by Montana that year).
Matt Cavanaugh was a career backup who started a grand total of two games in his 49ers career. He completed 61 passes over the course of his three year stint in SF.
I doubt that even Bill Walsh (one of the most brilliant offensive minds in football history) would have won a Super Bowl with Bono/Kemp/Cavanaugh (or DeBerg for that matter) as his starting quarterback.
The reality is that an elite quarterback is generally essential to winning a championship. The last 25 Super Bowls have been won by the following starting quarterbacks: Troy Aikman, Steve Young, Brett Favre, John Elway, Kurt Warner, Trent Dilfer, Tom Brady, Brad Johnson, Ben Roethlisberger, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Flacco and Russell Wilson.
Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, and Warner are in the Hall of Fame. Brady, Roethlisberger, the Mannings, Brees and Rodgers will almost certainly join them. The exceptions are Dilfer, Johnson, Flacco and Wilson who played with defenses that are considered historically good, among the most dominant units of all time (and Dilfer and Johnson were still Pro Bowlers albeit journeymen, while the book is not closed on Flacco and Wilson who are highly respected if not projected for the HoF.)
On the merits none of the quarterbacks in this year's draft class grade as first rounders but we will surely see at least three (and possibly five) drafted on the first day, perhaps as high as second overall! On the surface it doesn't make sense but the correlation between elite quarterback play and playoff success is so high that reaching is also understandable.
[/quote]
Good post. Johnson's super bowl year was his career year, the only 90+ QB rating he ever had. Still, he was well known for smart passing, and threw comparatively few interceptions...that year, he led the league in fewest interceptions rate. He's also #54 on the list of all-time NFL wins by QB, so journeyman or no, he knows something about winning.
Along those lines, Flacco is #37 in career NFL wins and Dilfer is #76, though neither has ever led the league in anything. Without their defenses, they're basically Steve DeBerg (#93 in career NFL wins), who has a career rating in between Flacco's and Dilfer's.
Re: this year's draft quarterbacks, Greg Cosell says it's one of the all-time worst years, and having seen Trubisky play just once, I would have to agree.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - Mick - 04-22-2017
(04-22-2017, 06:30 AM)SF_Cardinal_Fan link Wrote:Well, I disagree.
In my mind Bill Walsh could have, and would have, won Super Bowls with any number of reasonably competent QB's. Walsh consistently produced a true team effort which was not especially dependent on any one player or position. If one had to single out a position crucial to the success of a Bill Walsh team I would consider the entire offensive line to be that "position" (even though it's a unit of 5 guys rather than a single position).
As a pro Jim Plunkett was ineffective on the Patriots and his year or two with the 49ers. He had some great QB skills but they were only well utilized when he joined the good overall team, including OL, that Tom Flores had going for the Raiders.
For the first half of his pro career John Elway's performance did not produce many wins. Once Dan Reeves was fired Shannahan came in and got the Broncos playing well as a team.
Christian McCaffrey , as well as most all the other projected 1st and 2nd round draft picks, are all highly skilled world class athletes. Whether they have professional on field success, I think, is largely dependent on the competence of management, and coaching, of the team that drafts them.
I think Walsh could have won with mediocre quarterbacks, but chiefly because his defenses were so ridiculously strong over a very long period of time. IMHO, George Seifert doesn't get nearly the amount of credit he deserves (multiple super bowl winning coach though he may be). Here's the 49ers NFL Defense ranking from their 1981 Super Bowl Year through 2000, in points and yards:
1981Â 2, 2
1982Â 23, 21
1983Â 4, 10
1984Â 1, 10
1985Â 2, 14
1986Â 3, 6
1987Â 3, 1
1988Â 8, 3
1989Â 3, 4
1990Â 2, 3
1991Â 4, 6
1992Â 3,15
1993Â 16, 15
1994Â 6, 8
1995Â 2, 1
1996Â 4, 7
1997Â 3, 1
1998Â 13, 23
1999Â 30, 28
1996 was Seifert's last year, you can see what happened as it transitioned to Marriucci. The horrible defensive rankings continued through Nolan, got a little better with Singletary (high water year with sSingletary was #4 points allowed in 2009, then immediately improved under Harbaugh and his four years:
2011Â 2, 4
2012Â 2, 3
2013Â 3, 5
2014Â 10, 5
Then Harbaugh left, and the team plummeted in defense to 18/29 and 32/32 in Chip Kellys Year of Misery.
Be interesting to see what happens this year.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - DC 86 - 04-22-2017
(04-22-2017, 06:30 AM)SF_Cardinal_Fan link Wrote:Well, I disagree.No doubt Walsh could have won Super Bowls with someone like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson or Jeff Hostetler (who nevertheless were all Pro Bowlers) but not with the examples that you cited (Bono, Kemp or Cavanaugh).
In my mind Bill Walsh could have, and would have, won Super Bowls with any number of reasonably competent QB's. Walsh consistently produced a true team effort which was not especially dependent on any one player or position. If one had to single out a position crucial to the success of a Bill Walsh team I would consider the entire offensive line to be that "position" (even though it's a unit of 5 guys rather than a single position).
For the first half of his pro career John Elway's performance did not produce many wins. Once Dan Reeves was fired Shannahan came in and got the Broncos playing well as a team.
During the first part of John Elway's career (the period when Dan Reeves was head coach) his regular season record as a starter was 89-52-1 (over 63%) with three AFC championships. It's unfortunate that three Super Bowl losses leave the impression that he "did not produce many wins" but that's simply not the case, he produced a lot of wins even though he didn't have a single Pro Bowl WR during that time, and only one Pro Bowl OL (Keith Bishop). He demonstrates how a great QB can manufacture wins absent talent around him, whereas even an all time great OL (e.g. Joe Thomas), WR (e.g. Larry Fitzgerald) or RB (e.g. Barry Sanders) can't carry their teams when QB play is subpar.
Quarterback surely get too much credit and too much blame, but the fact remains that a team can win even if it is below average at certain positions, but not if one of those positions is quarterback. History tells us that QB play needs to be at least above average for a team to be a championship contender.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - Leftcoast - 04-22-2017
Quote:I put the winky emoticon there and then think of Marcus Lattimore, Maurice Clarett, Ricky Williams, Earl Campbell, et al. There are many reasons why RBs don't live up to their draft pick. Some are tragic, some are self-inflicted.
Why is five time pro bowler and Pro Football HOF member Earl Campbell on your list of players who didn't live up to their draft pick? Campbell is still my ideal of an elite NFL power running back and his epic NFC championship games against Tom Landry's Cowboys are deservedly legendary.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - SF_Cardinal_Fan - 04-22-2017
(04-22-2017, 08:22 AM)DC 86 link Wrote:[quote author=SF_Cardinal_Fan link=topic=16796.msg192148#msg192148 date=1492867804]No doubt Walsh could have won Super Bowls with someone like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson or Jeff Hostetler (who nevertheless were all Pro Bowlers) but not with the examples that you cited (Bono, Kemp or Cavanaugh).
Well, I disagree.
In my mind Bill Walsh could have, and would have, won Super Bowls with any number of reasonably competent QB's. Walsh consistently produced a true team effort which was not especially dependent on any one player or position. If one had to single out a position crucial to the success of a Bill Walsh team I would consider the entire offensive line to be that "position" (even though it's a unit of 5 guys rather than a single position).
For the first half of his pro career John Elway's performance did not produce many wins. Once Dan Reeves was fired Shannahan came in and got the Broncos playing well as a team.
During the first part of John Elway's career (the period when Dan Reeves was head coach) his regular season record as a starter was 89-52-1 (over 63%) with three AFC championships. It's unfortunate that three Super Bowl losses leave the impression that he "did not produce many wins" but that's simply not the case, he produced a lot of wins even though he didn't have a single Pro Bowl WR during that time, and only one Pro Bowl OL (Keith Bishop). He demonstrates how a great QB can manufacture wins absent talent around him, whereas even an all time great OL (e.g. Joe Thomas), WR (e.g. Larry Fitzgerald) or RB (e.g. Barry Sanders) can't carry their teams when QB play is subpar.
Quarterback surely get too much credit and too much blame, but the fact remains that a team can win even if it is below average at certain positions, but not if one of those positions is quarterback. History tells us that QB play needs to be at least above average for a team to be a championship contender.
[/quote]
Fair enough.
Regarding Elway, I remember his recruitment , including an SI magazine profile of his high school QB accomplishments. During his Stanford career, Elway's teams did not seem well coached, I think the head coach at the time was Paul Wiggins. I did not watch any of Elway's high school playing career, but at Stanford and with Reeves coached Broncos, it seemed to me that he often threw the ball with more velocity than necessary.
At Stanford I think it was only Kenny Margerum who was relatively comfortable catching Elway's bullet passes.
It would have been interesting to see , had Elway the opportunity to play for Bill Walsh, how his QB play would have evolved. I think Walsh was an advocate of throwing relatively soft passes, whenever practical, as less velocity improved the chances of a receiver making the catch.
All that said, at Stanford and for the Broncos, it was fun to observe Elway's rifle passes. I can't recall a QB before or after him who possessed his combination of hard velocity with accuracy.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - Papa John - 04-22-2017
I had the pleasure of watching John Elway during his sophomore through senior seasons at Stanford. His velocity was legendary, but he completed a lot of passes to different receivers, including touch passes to Darrin Nelson out of the backfield. While Elway was known for his arm, I loved watching him evade would-be tacklers behind the line of scrimmage as he kept his eyes downfield.
At least, that's how I want to remember it. Maybe someday someone will post online an extensive compilation of Elway's highlights on The Farm. Quite a few of his games were televised, which was a notable feat back in the early 1980s, so the footage is out there.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - DC 86 - 04-22-2017
(04-21-2017, 10:01 PM)CowboyIndian link Wrote:[quote author=Mick link=topic=16796.msg192129#msg192129 date=1492821702]
Ray Guy is the only punter in the NFL HoF.
Yale Lary
[/quote]
Trivia question for Phogge, Bob K., CowboyIndian et al:
What is the connection between Yale Lary and Stanford?
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - Mick - 04-22-2017
(04-22-2017, 10:06 AM)leftcoast link Wrote:Quote:I put the winky emoticon there and then think of Marcus Lattimore, Maurice Clarett, Ricky Williams, Earl Campbell, et al. There are many reasons why RBs don't live up to their draft pick. Some are tragic, some are self-inflicted.
Why is five time pro bowler and Pro Football HOF member Earl Campbell on your list of players who didn't live up to their draft pick? Campbell is still my ideal of an elite NFL power running back and his epic NFC championship games against Tom Landry's Cowboys are deservedly legendary.
And Williams gained more yards in his career than Campbell, so I don't think of either as failing to live up to their picks. Campbell was #35 in career yards and Williams was #29.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - DC 86 - 04-22-2017
(04-22-2017, 06:31 PM)Mick link Wrote:[quote author=leftcoast link=topic=16796.msg192159#msg192159 date=1492880797]
Quote:I put the winky emoticon there and then think of Marcus Lattimore, Maurice Clarett, Ricky Williams, Earl Campbell, et al. There are many reasons why RBs don't live up to their draft pick. Some are tragic, some are self-inflicted.
Why is five time pro bowler and Pro Football HOF member Earl Campbell on your list of players who didn't live up to their draft pick? Campbell is still my ideal of an elite NFL power running back and his epic NFC championship games against Tom Landry's Cowboys are deservedly legendary.
And Williams gained more yards in his career than Campbell, so I don't think of either as failing to live up to their picks. Campbell was #35 in career yards and Williams was #29.
[/quote]
Indeed, I didn't understand those examples either. Campbell has a short but brilliant Hall of Fame career (twice voted league MVP by the PFWA, 1,934 yards rushing one season and 19 TD another). Williams had an uneven career but still ended with over 10,000 rushing yards. Lattimore never recovered from serious college injuries and never played a down, a risk that applies to any injured player regardless of position.
It's not hard to find genuine RB busts: Trent Richardson, Cedric Benson, Curtis Enis, Ki-Jana Carter and Blair Thomas were all drafted in the top 5 overall.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - fullmetal - 04-24-2017
I phrased that poorly. It's not "failing to live up to their draft pick." I was more thinking careers that never had the longevity hoped for based on draft status due to injury. Ricky Williams I threw out there as an interesting case where he made the Pro Bowl one year early in his career. I always thought that his marijuana usage was a substitute for toradol prescriptions, hence the relevance to injuries. Campbell's ~8 year career was far too short for someone who was a 5x Pro Bowler.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - BostonCard - 04-24-2017
McCaffrey is a legit top-10 talent (per this article: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2705015-why-christian-mccaffrey-is-a-legitimate-top-10-talent-in-the-2017-nfl-draft)
Quote:An ability to morph from running back to receiver and back again has fueled the buzz around McCaffrey. Now, days before the draft and after months of being scrutinized under a magnifying glass, this sky-high projection for McCaffrey is coming into focus: He's a top-10 talent.
That's true even with LSU's Leonard Fournette already projected to occupy top-10 territory and more likely the top five. In an era when the running back position is still devalued, McCaffrey could easily rise to join Fournette. If he does, it'll happen because a team ignored any concerns about his 5'11", 202-pound size, with his ability to create yardage and mismatches from anywhere, at any time, easily trumping them.
How does he do it? Everything with himfrom his quick cutting as a runner to his field reversal after the catchcomes back to his lightning-fast feet.
BC
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - CowboyIndian - 04-24-2017
(04-22-2017, 01:00 PM)DC 86 link Wrote:Trivia question for Phogge, Bob K., CowboyIndian et al:
What is the connection between Yale Lary and Stanford?
He played in the same Detroit defensive backfield as former Stanford coach Jack Christiansen?
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - DC 86 - 04-24-2017
(04-24-2017, 07:07 PM)CowboyIndian link Wrote:[quote author=DC 86 link=topic=16796.msg192168#msg192168 date=1492891248]
Trivia question for Phogge, Bob K., CowboyIndian et al:
What is the connection between Yale Lary and Stanford?
He played in the same Detroit defensive backfield as former Stanford coach Jack Christiansen?
[/quote]
Indeed, Lary and Christiansen formed a safety tandem for several years, both Hall of Famers.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - BostonCard - 04-25-2017
McCaffrey analysis...
http://sports.mynorthwest.com/272203/brock-huards-nfl-draft-preview-stanford-rb-christian-mccaffrey/
I think that was pretty accurate.
On another note, I saw on TV that the Browns are deciding between Myles Garrett, who seems to be the consensus #1, and (get this) Mitch Turbisky. Leave it to the Browns to waste another #1 pick at a mediocre QB.
Lastly, this is the NFL.com's latest mock draft.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000802040/article/casserly-mock-draft-40-brownsjags-trade-nets-two-qbs
They have the 49ers picking Fournette at #2 (seems a waste), with Thomas and McCaffrey going back to back at 7 and 8. Personally, I'd love to see Thomas playing for the Chargers, even though they are no longer *my* Chargers. And I feel like McCaffrey in the same backfield as Cam Newton would be something.
BC
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - Hurlburt88 - 04-26-2017
"Tackle by Wyman"
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - yvonne - 04-26-2017
(04-25-2017, 02:15 PM)Boston Card link Wrote:McCaffrey analysis...
http://sports.mynorthwest.com/272203/brock-huards-nfl-draft-preview-stanford-rb-christian-mccaffrey/
I think that was pretty accurate.
On another note, I saw on TV that the Browns are deciding between Myles Garrett, who seems to be the consensus #1, and (get this) Mitch Turbisky. Leave it to the Browns to waste another #1 pick at a mediocre QB.
Lastly, this is the NFL.com's latest mock draft.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000802040/article/casserly-mock-draft-40-brownsjags-trade-nets-two-qbs
They have the 49ers picking Fournette at #2 (seems a waste), with Thomas and McCaffrey going back to back at 7 and 8. Personally, I'd love to see Thomas playing for the Chargers, even though they are no longer *my* Chargers. And I feel like McCaffrey in the same backfield as Cam Newton would be something.
BC
I heard yesterday that the Niners might be considering a quarterback with their No 1 pick. I'm petrified that they'll pick Turbisky. Despite my fond memories of Lynch, I'm fully confident that York and co. will choose the next Alex Smith over the next Aaron Rodgers.
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - Goose - 04-26-2017
(04-26-2017, 07:14 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:I heard yesterday that the Niners might be considering a quarterback with their No 1 pick. I'm petrified that they'll pick Turbisky. Despite my fond memories of Lynch, I'm fully confident that York and co. will choose the next Alex Smith over the next Aaron Rodgers.You give the Yorks too much credit. I think at this point we would gladly take an Alex Smith. At least he is still in the league. Seriously, I hope Lynch will get the chance to make his own mistakes, at least for a while. ;D
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - FarmBoy - 04-26-2017
I remember reading something a few years back that one of the biggest predictors of a college QB's success in he NFL is having started 25+ college games and won a high %. It seems like a really big risk to take someone based on a 13 game sample.
Every time I see something on CMAC, it seems like Panters at 8 or Eagles at 14 if he's still there.
Should be an interesting 1st round.
When are other Stanford players expected to go, aside from the big 2?
Re: McCaffrey no private workouts - Mick - 04-27-2017
(04-26-2017, 07:52 PM)FarmBoy link Wrote:I remember reading something a few years back that one of the biggest predictors of a college QB's success in he NFL is having started 25+ college games and won a high %. It seems like a really big risk to take someone based on a 13 game sample.
Every time I see something on CMAC, it seems like Panters at 8 or Eagles at 14 if he's still there.
Should be an interesting 1st round.
When are other Stanford players expected to go, aside from the big 2?
I'm reading USA Today this morning. In their Top 35 players, they have Garrett at 1, Solomon Thomas at 2, McCaffrey at 14. In their mock draft, they have Thomas going to the Chargers at #7 and McCaffrey going to the Panthers at #8. They project four first round RBs taken, which hasn't happened since 2008.
CBS has Rector, Ukropina and Lloyd as 7th round/Free Agent selections. Francis Owusu is listed, but with nothing next to his name.