Fire the coach! - Printable Version
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RE: Fire the coach! - winflop - 10-18-2019
(10-18-2019, 05:21 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote: Yeah, it was a pretty pathetic effort. I don't know when or if we get Mills (or Costello) back, but assuming we do hopefully we have a couple more Washingtons in us.
Last night was about far more than the QB. Having Mills or Costello in there will certainly make a difference, but you still have an OL that can't sustain blocks, an overrated receiving corps that can't get separation, and an offensive "brain trust" that can't figure out how to make adjustments at halftime.
RE: Fire the coach! - JohnR34231 - 10-18-2019
(10-18-2019, 07:48 AM)winflop Wrote:(10-18-2019, 05:21 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote: Yeah, it was a pretty pathetic effort. I don't know when or if we get Mills (or Costello) back, but assuming we do hopefully we have a couple more Washingtons in us.
Last night was about far more than the QB. Having Mills or Costello in there will certainly make a difference, but you still have an OL that can't sustain blocks, an overrated receiving corps that can't get separation, and an offensive "brain trust" that can't figure out how to make adjustments at halftime.
I agree that the kind of effort we had last night won't beat anyone, regardless of who is playing QB.
Howver, the kind of effort we had against Washington did, and hopefully we are capable of playing that way again.
RE: Fire the coach! - 81alum - 10-18-2019
I think we can now say we are officially in a rebuilding year.
As in rebuilding knees, shoulders, ankles, thumbs, etc.
At this point the key is whether this is a one year phenomenon or the start of something worse.
In decades of watching Stanford football I have almost always forced myself to watch complete games, even when we were losing badly. I couldn't bring myself to finish watching the game last night. It was too painful to see West turned into a human punching bag.
The combination of a tentative QB who held onto the ball too long and an inexperienced O-Line was awful to behold. I really felt sorry for our players.
RE: Fire the coach! - cctop - 10-18-2019
(10-18-2019, 08:21 AM)81alum Wrote: In decades of watching Stanford football I have almost always forced myself to watch complete games, even when we were losing badly. I couldn't bring myself to finish watching the game last night. It was too painful to see West turned into a human punching bag.
Yes, last night was the first time in 33 years of home games where I voluntarily left before the end of the game. I even sat through those horrendous Wlat years.
I teach my kid that you stay to the end cheering for your team. In order to enjoy the good times you have to suffer through the bad.
If it were a Saturday we probably would have stayed. Last night, midway through the 3rd quarter...well, he had school the next day and it was a long drive home.
RE: Fire the coach! - Goose - 10-18-2019
(10-18-2019, 07:48 AM)winflop Wrote:(10-18-2019, 05:21 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote: Yeah, it was a pretty pathetic effort. I don't know when or if we get Mills (or Costello) back, but assuming we do hopefully we have a couple more Washingtons in us.
Last night was about far more than the QB. Having Mills or Costello in there will certainly make a difference, but you still have an OL that can't sustain blocks, an overrated receiving corps that can't get separation, and an offensive "brain trust" that can't figure out how to make adjustments at halftime.
I think it is pretty hard to make adjustments that will fix an OL that isn't "sustaining" blocks (I don't think they even started any blocks, let alone sustaining them) and a receiving corps that can't get separation. In those cases, you can't run and you can't pass. What's left to adjust?
Why we were so flat is very difficult to understand. We know that the team is capable of playing better, because we have seen them do it. They didn't do it last night. One would think the OL would give 110%, knowing that they had to be able to run in order to have any shot. It may well be the coaches sent the wrong message to these guys about what they needed to do. That I don't know. But it was obvious that after the first possession, there was no effective effort out there, on offense or defense. It was as if the team just didn't want to be out there and were going through the motions.
It is for sure that the coaches were unable to raise the team's level of play after halftime. While things were bad, we weren't hopelessly behind. We let UCLA basically drive the field, which was a bad sign. Then we did nothing on offense. Game pretty much over. We needed a quick stop and a TD at that point, and didn't get it. No sense of urgency appeared. That may be on the coaches.
RE: Fire the coach! - winflop - 10-18-2019
(10-18-2019, 10:12 AM)Goose Wrote:(10-18-2019, 07:48 AM)winflop Wrote:(10-18-2019, 05:21 AM)JohnR34231 Wrote: Yeah, it was a pretty pathetic effort. I don't know when or if we get Mills (or Costello) back, but assuming we do hopefully we have a couple more Washingtons in us.
Last night was about far more than the QB. Having Mills or Costello in there will certainly make a difference, but you still have an OL that can't sustain blocks, an overrated receiving corps that can't get separation, and an offensive "brain trust" that can't figure out how to make adjustments at halftime.
I think it is pretty hard to make adjustments that will fix an OL that isn't "sustaining" blocks (I don't think they even started any blocks, let alone sustaining them) and a receiving corps that can't get separation. In those cases, you can't run and you can't pass. What's left to adjust?
Why we were so flat is very difficult to understand. We know that the team is capable of playing better, because we have seen them do it. They didn't do it last night. One would think the OL would give 110%, knowing that they had to be able to run in order to have any shot. It may well be the coaches sent the wrong message to these guys about what they needed to do. That I don't know. But it was obvious that after the first possession, there was no effective effort out there, on offense or defense. It was as if the team just didn't want to be out there and were going through the motions.
It is for sure that the coaches were unable to raise the team's level of play after halftime. While things were bad, we weren't hopelessly behind. We let UCLA basically drive the field, which was a bad sign. Then we did nothing on offense. Game pretty much over. We needed a quick stop and a TD at that point, and didn't get it. No sense of urgency appeared. That may be on the coaches.
It may be hard to make adjustments, but you have to try. They didn't. When you have press coverage, double moves, pump fakes, slants, crossing routes could all work. None of those things were tried that I could see. Also should have yanked West, and in his postgame press conference Shaw said he never considered that option. That is a coaching failure. When your QB is visibly playing that poorly, you MUST at least CONSIDER pulling him.
On top of that, Shaw spent the first two minutes of his postgame presser throwing his players under the bus - AGAIN. There wasn't even a mention of him or his coaches in his entire opening statement. Same story with his postgame radio interview. He should have opened with something along the lines of, "We clearly weren't up to the challenge tonight, and that first and foremost is on me and my coaching staff for not having our players better prepared."
RE: Fire the coach! - Papa John - 10-18-2019
Some credit goes to UCLA. They clearly have not given up on the season, and I don't expect Stanford will either.
Every once in a while under Shaw, Stanford football lays an egg where the other team dominates, whether or not it has any business doing so.
I do expect a much better performance from Stanford versus Arizona.
RE: Fire the coach! - Goose - 10-18-2019
(10-18-2019, 11:54 AM)winflop Wrote: It may be hard to make adjustments, but you have to try. They didn't. When you have press coverage, double moves, pump fakes, slants, crossing routes could all work.I understand the idea that if what you are doing isn't working, you should try something else. However, I think what you try should at least have some expectation of working. Our QB had essentially no time to throw. Double moves and pump fakes require time, especially double moves. With no time to throw, trying such things is contra-indicated. West would be on his rear before the second move was even started. The other significant problem with pass protection last night was that even when the OL didn't give up a sack in 3 seconds, they ended up standing fully upright very close to the QB. Throwing slants requires a passing lane. We almost never had a clean lane last night. West would end up surrounded by the OL with no place to even step up. We DID try crossing patterns, at least two short crosses (that I recall), as we didn't have much time to throw (see above). Long crosses in the middle of the field don't make particularly good sense as they take too long. It is tempting to believe that scheme can overcome horrible play. That is seldom true. You have to do at least something well to build upon. If you can't protect the passer, and if you have no quick throwing lanes, there aren't many (any?) routes I know of that will help. Maybe bubble screens? Oh, wait, we tried that.
What I did think we should try was moving the pocket. Well, we finally did try that, and it didn't work well. I think we should have kept at it longer than we did, but it certainly wasn't a panacea.
Quote:Also should have yanked West, and in his postgame press conference Shaw said he never considered that option. That is a coaching failure. When your QB is visibly playing that poorly, you MUST at least CONSIDER pulling him.West had his issues, but I am not sure you can say he was "visibly playing poorly". If he was missing open receivers, if he was throwing lots of interceptions, if he was throwing to the wrong receivers, then it could be reasonable to yank him in order to coach him up a bit. However, he wasn't doing these things. The area I though he performed poorly was recognition He didn't react quickly to the pass rush and get out of the pocket. He didn't come off his primary rapidly, although given the coverage UCLA was providing, that didn't matter much, the other guys weren't really open either. It is perfectly rational of Shaw to not to consider a change if they had already decided that the other Jack wasn't ready to play. As the 4th QB, he probably hasn't had many reps at all this year. He may be able to hand off, but not anything more. By then, we needed "more".
Quote:He should have opened with something along the lines of, "We clearly weren't up to the challenge tonight, and that first and foremost is on me and my coaching staff for not having our players better prepared."With this, I agree. It may be "coachspeak", but sometimes coachspeak is called for. When the team is flat, it is up to the staff to fix it. It probably isn't Shaw's strong suit (firing up the team), but it was necessary last night. It didn't happen.
RE: Fire the coach! - Phogge - 10-18-2019
West threw a number of passes OB where the receiver had NONE chance. I got cold in the third Q and Husak was extremely negative on West.
RE: Fire the coach! - winflop - 10-18-2019
A 5-yard stop & go route requires no more than a 5-step drop & throw and is a great option against single, press coverage. West had been throwing short all game and hadn't pushed anything deep or over the top. Slants are typically 1- or 3-step drops. There were things to try and ShawVita never did. What was clear that what they were doing wasn't working and they failed to change anything at halftime and we predictably got more of the exact same piece-of-crap offense.
Shaw needs an OC who isn't going to be a yes-man.
RE: Fire the coach! - Goose - 10-18-2019
(10-18-2019, 04:18 PM)winflop Wrote: A 5-yard stop & go route requires no more than a 5-step drop & throw and is a great option against single, press coverage. West had been throwing short all game and hadn't pushed anything deep or over the top.A stop and go would have been worth a try, I agree.
Quote:Slants are typically 1- or 3-step drops.Yes, but no passing lane. We couldn't throw any quick slants unless the receiver was split WAY out. If the receiver was in close, no lanes last night. The bubble screen like plays were similar to quick slants. We made some yards that way, but not many. Three to five yards. That is fine if you can keep it up. However, you go to the well too often you will get a quick pick 6. Long cross-field throws are not good to live on.
Quote:There were things to try and ShawVita never did. What was clear that what they were doing wasn't working and they failed to change anything at halftime and we predictably got more of the exact same piece-of-crap offense.Not quite true. They did try moving the pocket. I thought that held promise. They stopped doing it though, I think because the OL was getting disorganized about where to go and who blocks who.
RE: Fire the coach! - BostonCard - 10-18-2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism
The coach must do something.
This is something.
Therefore the coach must do this.
I think we can be intellectually honest enough that yes, we could have "done something", but that given how the entire team was playing last night, it wasn't going to make a damned bit of difference on the outcome.
BC
RE: Fire the coach! - cardcrimson - 10-18-2019
Agree completely. The best thing we could have done half way through the third quarter would be to walk off the field and head to the lockers. The game was indeed toast. No adjustments would change that, clearly. Why risk anyone else to injury?
(10-18-2019, 05:15 PM)BostonCard Wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism
The coach must do something.
This is something.
Therefore the coach must do this.
I think we can be intellectually honest enough that yes, we could have "done something", but that given how the entire team was playing last night, it wasn't going to make a damned bit of difference on the outcome.
BC
RE: Fire the coach! - Goose - 10-18-2019
(10-18-2019, 05:15 PM)BostonCard Wrote: I think we can be intellectually honest enough that yes, we could have "done something", but that given how the entire team was playing last night, it wasn't going to make a damned bit of difference on the outcome.Changing the scheme on offense or defense wasn't going to matter. There are things that could have changed the outcome however. If the OL could have been motivated enough to create some running lanes, it could have turned the game around. That didn't happen, but only something like that would have helped. Sometimes, it really is about execution.
BC
RE: Fire the coach! - cardcrimson - 11-16-2019
1 and 3 since the OP. Beaten by three really bad Pac-12 teams as well and now with little chance of a bowl game (Thank God).
RE: Fire the coach! - SamuelMcF - 11-16-2019
(11-16-2019, 06:19 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: 1 and 3 since the OP. Beaten by three really bad Pac-12 teams as well and now with little chance of a bowl game (Thank God).
And the only win was considered such a disgraceful defensive performance by the other team that they fired their DC and LB coach afterwards.