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RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - 81alum - 07-14-2021

CTE symptoms include: impulsive behavior, aggression, depression, substance abuse, suicidal thoughts and behavior.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/chronic-traumatic-encephalopathy/symptoms-causes/syc-20370921

That is a possibility that should be checked out, and dovetails with the "mental illness" theory.  Of course, perhaps Sherman just got drunk and belligerent.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - 2006alum - 07-14-2021

(07-14-2021, 10:20 PM)81alum Wrote:  CTE symptoms include: impulsive behavior, aggression, depression, substance abuse, suicidal thoughts and behavior.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/chronic-traumatic-encephalopathy/symptoms-causes/syc-20370921

That is a possibility that should be checked out, and dovetails with the "mental illness" theory.  Of course, perhaps Sherman just got drunk and belligerent.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Two alums with telltale signs in the same week. Something really needs to change because we know too much to act like these are all just one-offs.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - fullmetal - 07-14-2021

Social workers and nurses encounter aggressive people all the time in the course of their jobs.  And they handle situations properly without escalation or weapons.  

This sounds like something normal people do all the time, and but for Sherman's NFL career, no one would be hearing about this in the national press.  Alcohol and secondary talk of self-harm have probably been around for as long as humans have been brewing and distilling alcohol.  Adding involuntary police custody was not going to make things better for everyone involved.

I hope Sherman comes out of this alright.  But he needs some guidance with the alcohol consumption.  Never drive drunk.  He can afford a rideshare.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - JustAnotherFan - 07-15-2021

(07-14-2021, 11:53 PM)fullmetal Wrote:  Social workers and nurses encounter aggressive people all the time in the course of their jobs.  And they handle situations properly without escalation or weapons.  

This sounds like something normal people do all the time, and but for Sherman's NFL career, no one would be hearing about this in the national press.  Alcohol and secondary talk of self-harm have probably been around for as long as humans have been brewing and distilling alcohol.  Adding involuntary police custody was not going to make things better for everyone involved.

I hope Sherman comes out of this alright.  But he needs some guidance with the alcohol consumption.  Never drive drunk.  He can afford a rideshare.

Thank you FullMetal. The reason why so many people are advocating for mental health professionals to work with people in crisis instead of the police is not because they are hiding in affluent suburbs disconnected from reality--it is because they know the risks of bringing a violence worker with a gun into a tense situation. 

I am also left wondering if Sherman would have received more initial compassion on this board if he were not an outspoken Black man.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - Goose - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 03:27 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:  Thank you FullMetal. The reason why so many people are advocating for mental health professionals to work with people in crisis instead of the police is not because they are hiding in affluent suburbs disconnected from reality--it is because they know the risks of bringing a violence worker with a gun into a tense situation.
I will agree with you when you can point to a social worker department that responds to all 911 calls regarding domestic violence and has a track record of success. AFAIK, there isn't such a situation in existence. Also, FWIW, many of the social workers that work for the cities and counties do carry weapons. I think that psychology professionals and social workers can and do contribute greatly to society. The few that I know have told me that if asked to predict if a patient will be a danger to themselves or others, even after spending many hours with the patient, they have a range of confidence levels. In many cases they have been wrong. It is a tough business. IMHO, the idea that a mental health professional can go to any given domestic violence situation , defuse it, and reliably produce a good outcome is at best a situation not in evidence. That is also certainly true with police. However, the legislatures have decided, probably correctly, that the only way to be sure that nothing untoward happens after the "intervention" is over is that the aggressive parties have to be removed from the situation. At that point, mental health professionals certainly need to be involved in subsequently deciding how to proceed. However, I think the mental health professionals will tell you that they are not the ones to remove the aggressive parties. That isn't their specialty.

Quote:I am also left wondering if Sherman would have received more initial compassion on this board if he were not an outspoken Black man.
I think most of the people on this board tend to give Stanford athletes the benefit of the doubt. I think Richard Sherman is also kind of a "local favorite" because he is outspoken. It is also true that Richard Sherman has done a lot of things for the community, and he has done them without the "Hey, look at me." that lots of athletes associate with such activities. As far as compassion goes, I think the attitude on this board has been pretty balanced. Richard Sherman didn't attack anyone until the police arrived. His wife was obviously very concerned about Richard hurting himself, but she also said he was being aggressive. She wanted the police there, but obviously reluctantly. I think most of us on this board are just saddened by all this. Richard Sherman is pictured by all of us as a strong, outspoken, smart, capable Stanford guy. He exhibited very poor judgement in this situation, which detracts from the image we all want to have of him.

I obviously don't know what particular stress caused him to get drunk and behave irresponsibly. I can certainly theorize a bit though. He is facing the end of his career in the NFL. Nobody has beat a path to his door, despite how good he has been. It may be over. He is 33 years old. He isn't ready for it to be over, and certainly not ready for it to be over involuntarily. I am sure lots of his identity is tied up in being an NFL player. That is probably going to be taken from him. Independent of anything else, if I were in that situation, I would undoubtedly feel lots of angst. That may not be at all what caused him to do what he did, but it certainly can't be helping.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - lex24 - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 07:12 AM)Goose Wrote:  
(07-15-2021, 03:27 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:  Thank you FullMetal. The reason why so many people are advocating for mental health professionals to work with people in crisis instead of the police is not because they are hiding in affluent suburbs disconnected from reality--it is because they know the risks of bringing a violence worker with a gun into a tense situation.
I will agree with you when you can point to a social worker department that responds to all 911 calls regarding domestic violence and has a track record of success. AFAIK, there isn't such a situation in existence. Also, FWIW, many of the social workers that work for the cities and counties do carry weapons. I think that psychology professionals and social workers can and do contribute greatly to society. The few that I know have told me that if asked to predict if a patient will be a danger to themselves or others, even after spending many hours with the patient, they have a range of confidence levels. In many cases they have been wrong. It is a tough business. IMHO, the idea that a mental health professional can go to any given domestic violence situation , defuse it, and reliably produce a good outcome is at best a situation not in evidence. That is also certainly true with police. However, the legislatures have decided, probably correctly, that the only way to be sure that nothing untoward happens after the "intervention" is over is that the aggressive parties have to be removed from the situation. At that point, mental health professionals certainly need to be involved in subsequently deciding how to proceed. However, I think the mental health professionals will tell you that they are not the ones to remove the aggressive parties. That isn't their specialty.

Quote:I am also left wondering if Sherman would have received more initial compassion on this board if he were not an outspoken Black man.
I think most of the people on this board tend to give Stanford athletes the benefit of the doubt. I think Richard Sherman is also kind of a "local favorite" because he is outspoken. It is also true that Richard Sherman has done a lot of things for the community, and he has done them without the "Hey, look at me." that lots of athletes associate with such activities. As far as compassion goes, I think the attitude on this board has been pretty balanced. Richard Sherman didn't attack anyone until the police arrived. His wife was obviously very concerned about Richard hurting himself, but she also said he was being aggressive. She wanted the police there, but obviously reluctantly. I think most of us on this board are just saddened by all this. Richard Sherman is pictured by all of us as a strong, outspoken, smart, capable Stanford guy. He exhibited very poor judgement in this situation, which detracts from the image we all want to have of him.

I obviously don't know what particular stress caused him to get drunk and behave irresponsibly. I can certainly theorize a bit though. He is facing the end of his career in the NFL. Nobody has beat a path to his door, despite how good he has been. It may be over. He is 33 years old. He isn't ready for it to be over, and certainly not ready for it to be over involuntarily. I am sure lots of his identity is tied up in being an NFL player. That is probably going to be taken from him. Independent of anything else, if I were in that situation, I would undoubtedly feel lots of angst. That may not be at all what caused him to do what he did, but it certainly can't be helping.

Sherman is, as he should be, very respected by people on this board. In part because he’s outspoken.  And usually in a very thought provoking way.  It’s one of the reasons I like him.   If he needs help, let’s hope he gets it.

EDIT: Apparently, and unfortunately, something has been going on for a while. According to the Seattle Times, an extreme risk protection order had earlier been obtained, banning him from having firearms. The records are under seal.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - jonnyss - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 07:12 AM)Goose Wrote:  
(07-15-2021, 03:27 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:  Thank you FullMetal. The reason why so many people are advocating for mental health professionals to work with people in crisis instead of the police is not because they are hiding in affluent suburbs disconnected from reality--it is because they know the risks of bringing a violence worker with a gun into a tense situation.
I will agree with you when you can point to a social worker department that responds to all 911 calls regarding domestic violence and has a track record of success. AFAIK, there isn't such a situation in existence. Also, FWIW, many of the social workers that work for the cities and counties do carry weapons. I think that psychology professionals and social workers can and do contribute greatly to society. The few that I know have told me that if asked to predict if a patient will be a danger to themselves or others, even after spending many hours with the patient, they have a range of confidence levels. In many cases they have been wrong. It is a tough business. IMHO, the idea that a mental health professional can go to any given domestic violence situation , defuse it, and reliably produce a good outcome is at best a situation not in evidence. That is also certainly true with police. However, the legislatures have decided, probably correctly, that the only way to be sure that nothing untoward happens after the "intervention" is over is that the aggressive parties have to be removed from the situation. At that point, mental health professionals certainly need to be involved in subsequently deciding how to proceed. However, I think the mental health professionals will tell you that they are not the ones to remove the aggressive parties. That isn't their specialty.

Quote:I am also left wondering if Sherman would have received more initial compassion on this board if he were not an outspoken Black man.
I think most of the people on this board tend to give Stanford athletes the benefit of the doubt. I think Richard Sherman is also kind of a "local favorite" because he is outspoken. It is also true that Richard Sherman has done a lot of things for the community, and he has done them without the "Hey, look at me." that lots of athletes associate with such activities. As far as compassion goes, I think the attitude on this board has been pretty balanced. Richard Sherman didn't attack anyone until the police arrived. His wife was obviously very concerned about Richard hurting himself, but she also said he was being aggressive. She wanted the police there, but obviously reluctantly. I think most of us on this board are just saddened by all this. Richard Sherman is pictured by all of us as a strong, outspoken, smart, capable Stanford guy. He exhibited very poor judgement in this situation, which detracts from the image we all want to have of him.

I obviously don't know what particular stress caused him to get drunk and behave irresponsibly. I can certainly theorize a bit though. He is facing the end of his career in the NFL. Nobody has beat a path to his door, despite how good he has been. It may be over. He is 33 years old. He isn't ready for it to be over, and certainly not ready for it to be over involuntarily. I am sure lots of his identity is tied up in being an NFL player. That is probably going to be taken from him. Independent of anything else, if I were in that situation, I would undoubtedly feel lots of angst. That may not be at all what caused him to do what he did, but it certainly can't be helping.

santa clara county still has a mobile emergency crisis team for mental health issues. daytime only currently, but when i worked at valley med center during my residency in the 70s, it was 24 hours. generally that team brought individuals in for evaluation more often than the police. seemed to work pretty well. it's my impression that they occasionally called the police in when they needed backup.

although it's true that the average social worker or psychologist isn't trained to handle an aggressive suicidal drunk, i'm not sure how that's relevant. we're talking about a specialty: professionals trained to handle - de-escalate if possible - mental health and substance crises. can be social workers, psychologists, psych techs, police or a combination. there are even a few communities where a dedicated team of police has special training in mental health issues. not the average social worker and not the average policeman with a gun and little or no training in mental health and de-escalation.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - OutsiderFan - 07-15-2021

It seems like it makes sense to have "SWAT" teams for DV situations.  Sometimes uniformed Police are needed. Sometimes negotiators or counselors are needed. Maybe a hybrid plain clothed detective-type can go in before a uniformed cop.

My suspicion is many people are threatened by the mere interaction with a fully uniformed, decked out cop because of bad experiences with them or expectations that they will resort to physical force too quickly.

As far as Sherman and him being Black, for me, that doesn't factor into my assessment of his situation at all. I see someone struggling with something, losing control, probably needing some help of some kind, and hoping he gets it, while also seeing an example of why DV is not exactly the best situation to put traditional Police into and how this is an example of why policing should evolve. Then I wonder about how this kind of behavior manifests and if/how it can be at all predicted. And yes, if Sherman's breakdown can in any way be attributed to mental illness and brain injury from playing football.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - 82lsju - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 07:32 AM)lex24 Wrote:  Sherman is, as he should be, very respected by people on this board. In part because he’s outspoken.  And usually in a very thought provoking way.  It’s one of the reasons I like him.   If he needs help, let’s hope he gets it.

EDIT: Apparently, and unfortunately, something has been going on for a while.  According to the Seattle Times, an extreme risk protection order had earlier been obtained, banning him from having firearms.  The records are under seal.

here's the Seattle Times article

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks/former-seahawk-cb-richard-sherman-arrested-on-suspicion-of-burglary-domestic-violence/?fbclid=IwAR0lingnUeMIVPyvp9Pnc-jg1-stjgQJgIIenj9Y8DnRrnxDyg-HP3Be3sc

which says in part

Quote:The King County Sheriff’s Office obtained an extreme risk protection order (ERPO) against Sherman earlier this year to bar him from possessing firearms, according to court records. The petition was sealed by a Superior Court judge, so details are unknown. Under state law, ERPOs can be sealed if there are no other active protection orders against the restrained party, no pending violations of the order, and evidence of full compliance with the relinquishment of firearms.


RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - Goose - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 08:17 AM)jonnyss Wrote:  although it's true that the average social worker or psychologist isn't trained to handle an aggressive suicidal drunk, i'm not sure how that's relevant. we're talking about a specialty: professionals trained to handle - de-escalate if possible - mental health and substance crises. can be social workers, psychologists, psych techs, police or a combination. there are even a few communities where a dedicated team of police has special training in mental health issues. not the average social worker and not the average policeman with a gun and little or no training in mental health and de-escalation.
While we risk being off topic, I think the latter approach you mention has lots of merit. Unfortunately, a cop with little or no training in handling these types of situations is at a great disadvantage. Equally, even a specially trained social worker is at a disadvantage if violence breaks out that they are not trained to deal with. Anybody showing up in these situations is at risk, and there is no way to know apriori what you are dealing with. Specially trained personnel are the answer. Getting enough of them will be the problem, but it is certainly the way to go IMHO.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - Mick - 07-15-2021

(07-14-2021, 01:21 PM)TrumpCard Wrote:  I’ve known a lot of people who’ve done stupid stuff. Heck, I’ve represented some of those people in related civil cases. To my knowledge, I don’t know *anyone* who’s been charged with resisting arrest. It ain’t that common.

Definitions:

California Penal Code 148 PC broadly defines resisting arrest as willfully resisting, delaying or obstructing law enforcement officers or emergency medical technicians in the performance of their official duties. This offense is a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year in county jail and fines of up to $1000.00.

148a1 PC states that “every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician…in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.”
Defenses:

There are several  that a person can raise if accused of a crime under Penal Code 148. These include showing that the defendant:
(07-14-2021, 01:22 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:  [twitter] https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1415387522063114244 [/twitter]

Sounds like an argument where he wouldn't leave his own home. While it should be taken seriously, I imagine that this will all go away in short order. The hit and run doesn't involve another vehicle.
(07-14-2021, 01:21 PM)TrumpCard Wrote:  I’ve known a lot of people who’ve done stupid stuff. Heck, I’ve represented some of those people in related civil cases. To my knowledge, I don’t know *anyone* who’s been charged with resisting arrest. It ain’t that common.

LOL, I've been charged with resisting arrest multiple times. I didn't do anything stupid, I just stood up to thug cops. Well, I guess that can be stupid in a society where cops have broad latitude to violate people's rights. But it's not illegal.

I grew up in a neighborhood that could be very charitably described as white trash.  None of us had good relationships with police officers.  My mother definitely didn't tell us to ask police officers for help if we needed it.  Instead, she told us to treat them as if they were crazy people with guns.  Probably sound advice if you don't want to get shot.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - ColoradoTree - 07-15-2021

I hope he gets the help he needs, and I'm extremely relieved no one was hurt (other than apparently a laceration on Sherman's leg from the police dog). 

Some of the judgment of Sherman so far in this thread (and elsewhere) seems to come from an assumption that he made an error in judgment or a bad choice, and thus he is fully responsible for the consequences. But if his mental health concerns have been ongoing for some months, as seems to be the case, then that assumption is likely unfair. It doesn't mean he will be free from consequences, of course, but it can and should affect the lens through which we view this. He will go to rehab, and his underlying mental health concerns will likely affect the ultimate charge on the DUI and his eligibility for a diversion program. 

It is a shame that the initial flash of this story based on the name of the charge is what most will remember. Those who disliked him already because of his outspoken nature won't be inclined to dig any further. And many are presuming this all derived from a conscious choice that he should not have made. Yes, he chose to drink what he drank and get in the car. But if his mental health had deteriorated to the point that his guns were taken away, then he's simply less culpable. He was less competent to make that choice. 

He clearly needs psychiatric help. He'll go to rehab, he'll pay restitution if there was any damage to the concrete barrier and he'll pay to fix any damage to his in-laws' house. He'll face some criminal charge for the drunk driving, though the DA will have to consider how Sherman's mental illness will impact getting a guilty verdict if it were to go to trial and knowing it would be a mitigating factor in sentencing even with a guilty verdict. (And it would never go to trial. Either he'd plead guilty to the DUI charge under a deal where he'd just get probation, or he'd probably get a deferred prosecution and if he successfully completes treatment and keeps his nose clean for a few years, the charge would be dismissed.) 

Anyway. It's really sad. I'm really relieved he didn't hurt himself or anyone else. But those of you in the thread who said you were withholding judgment until a fuller picture emerged? You had it right. That's usually the best course of action, and that sure proved true here. I'll be waiting to hear more, but the story as it first emerged was disastrous, both in terms of its moral wrongness and the effect on his career and how we all view him. The story as it now seems to be is sad and tragic, but the level of moral wrongness has gone way down, and with it, the potential long-term damage to his career* and how he's generally viewed by the public.

*I'm referring to long-term damage to his career and reputation here. There is undeniable short-term damage, what with NFL training camps starting in the next 1-2 weeks. He was seemingly healthy, though, and as the top available free agent CB, he likely would've been on a roster at some point this season absent this incident, provided he recognized he's in the "discounted one-year deal" stage of his career.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - teejers1 - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 03:27 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:  I am also left wondering if Sherman would have received more initial compassion on this board if he were not an outspoken Black man.

The handwringing, preaching, and condescension on this board - usually cloaked in the form of "earnest" and "caring" posts - crack me up.

It's possible Sherman has a serious drinking problem and he needs help.  
It's possible Sherman does not have a drinking problem - that he got drunk and was belligerent that one night.
It's possible Sherman is a DV risk.
It's possible that Sherman is not even close to a DV risk (I'd caution against making assumptions based on the title of the charge).  

I'd bet good money no one posting on this board knows Sherman's history/details to really have a clue where on this spectrum he falls.  I certainly do not.

But yeah . . . I'm sure the "less compassionate" posts are all because he's an outspoken black man.  Please.  
I know it's hard for some people to fathom, but not everything people think and say and post - consciously or unconsciously - is driven by race.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - DC 86 - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 03:27 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:  I am also left wondering if Sherman would have received more initial compassion on this board if he were not an outspoken Black man.

Reasonable people can disagree about policing in general or the Sherman incident in particular. You are making a thinly veiled accusation of racism against those who disagree with your viewpoint, which is unfair.

I am an immense Richard Sherman fan, but if he showed up in the middle of the night and tried to kick my front door down I would not rely solely on a social worker to intervene. I respect differing opinions but that's mine.

lex24 - lex24 - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 08:17 AM)jonnyss Wrote:  
(07-15-2021, 07:12 AM)Goose Wrote:  
(07-15-2021, 03:27 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:  Thank you FullMetal. The reason why so many people are advocating for mental health professionals to work with people in crisis instead of the police is not because they are hiding in affluent suburbs disconnected from reality--it is because they know the risks of bringing a violence worker with a gun into a tense situation.
I will agree with you when you can point to a social worker department that responds to all 911 calls regarding domestic violence and has a track record of success. AFAIK, there isn't such a situation in existence. Also, FWIW, many of the social workers that work for the cities and counties do carry weapons. I think that psychology professionals and social workers can and do contribute greatly to society. The few that I know have told me that if asked to predict if a patient will be a danger to themselves or others, even after spending many hours with the patient, they have a range of confidence levels. In many cases they have been wrong. It is a tough business. IMHO, the idea that a mental health professional can go to any given domestic violence situation , defuse it, and reliably produce a good outcome is at best a situation not in evidence. That is also certainly true with police. However, the legislatures have decided, probably correctly, that the only way to be sure that nothing untoward happens after the "intervention" is over is that the aggressive parties have to be removed from the situation. At that point, mental health professionals certainly need to be involved in subsequently deciding how to proceed. However, I think the mental health professionals will tell you that they are not the ones to remove the aggressive parties. That isn't their specialty.

Quote:I am also left wondering if Sherman would have received more initial compassion on this board if he were not an outspoken Black man.
I think most of the people on this board tend to give Stanford athletes the benefit of the doubt. I think Richard Sherman is also kind of a "local favorite" because he is outspoken. It is also true that Richard Sherman has done a lot of things for the community, and he has done them without the "Hey, look at me." that lots of athletes associate with such activities. As far as compassion goes, I think the attitude on this board has been pretty balanced. Richard Sherman didn't attack anyone until the police arrived. His wife was obviously very concerned about Richard hurting himself, but she also said he was being aggressive. She wanted the police there, but obviously reluctantly. I think most of us on this board are just saddened by all this. Richard Sherman is pictured by all of us as a strong, outspoken, smart, capable Stanford guy. He exhibited very poor judgement in this situation, which detracts from the image we all want to have of him.

I obviously don't know what particular stress caused him to get drunk and behave irresponsibly. I can certainly theorize a bit though. He is facing the end of his career in the NFL. Nobody has beat a path to his door, despite how good he has been. It may be over. He is 33 years old. He isn't ready for it to be over, and certainly not ready for it to be over involuntarily. I am sure lots of his identity is tied up in being an NFL player. That is probably going to be taken from him. Independent of anything else, if I were in that situation, I would undoubtedly feel lots of angst. That may not be at all what caused him to do what he did, but it certainly can't be helping.

santa clara county still has a mobile emergency crisis team for mental health issues. daytime only currently, but when i worked at valley med center during my residency in the 70s, it was 24 hours. generally that team brought individuals in for evaluation more often than the police. seemed to work pretty well. it's my impression that they occasionally called the police in when they needed backup.

although it's true that the average social worker or psychologist isn't trained to handle an aggressive suicidal drunk, i'm not sure how that's relevant. we're talking about a specialty: professionals trained to handle - de-escalate if possible - mental health and substance crises. can be social workers, psychologists, psych techs, police or a combination. there are even a few communities where a dedicated team of police has special training in mental health issues. not the average social worker and not the average policeman with a gun and little or no training in mental health and de-escalation.

No question Social Workers have a role to play.  But admittedly I’m guessing here that the people you saw being brought in we’re not situations in which a 911 call had been placed by a family member indicating that there was a fight going on and somebody was threatening to kill themselves.

Domestic violence cases when they reach threat levels often involve weapons and unfortunately people are often badly injured or killed by the offender.  I truly don’t know how a social worker is equipped to walk into such a situation. (I’m talking generally here).

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - Goose - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 11:01 AM)teejers1 Wrote:  I'd bet good money no one posting on this board knows Sherman's history/details to really have a clue where on this spectrum he falls.  I certainly do not.
This is IMHO unequivocally true. We don't know why this happened. It is certainly sad that it did. Hopefully, some good will come of it and things can get better for Richard Sherman. He has so much to offer and so much in front of him, it would indeed be tragic if he cannot realize this additional potential (and associated joy) outside of football.

RE: lex24 - jonnyss - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 11:28 AM)lex24 Wrote:  
(07-15-2021, 08:17 AM)jonnyss Wrote:  
(07-15-2021, 07:12 AM)Goose Wrote:  
(07-15-2021, 03:27 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:  Thank you FullMetal. The reason why so many people are advocating for mental health professionals to work with people in crisis instead of the police is not because they are hiding in affluent suburbs disconnected from reality--it is because they know the risks of bringing a violence worker with a gun into a tense situation.
I will agree with you when you can point to a social worker department that responds to all 911 calls regarding domestic violence and has a track record of success. AFAIK, there isn't such a situation in existence. Also, FWIW, many of the social workers that work for the cities and counties do carry weapons. I think that psychology professionals and social workers can and do contribute greatly to society. The few that I know have told me that if asked to predict if a patient will be a danger to themselves or others, even after spending many hours with the patient, they have a range of confidence levels. In many cases they have been wrong. It is a tough business. IMHO, the idea that a mental health professional can go to any given domestic violence situation , defuse it, and reliably produce a good outcome is at best a situation not in evidence. That is also certainly true with police. However, the legislatures have decided, probably correctly, that the only way to be sure that nothing untoward happens after the "intervention" is over is that the aggressive parties have to be removed from the situation. At that point, mental health professionals certainly need to be involved in subsequently deciding how to proceed. However, I think the mental health professionals will tell you that they are not the ones to remove the aggressive parties. That isn't their specialty.

Quote:I am also left wondering if Sherman would have received more initial compassion on this board if he were not an outspoken Black man.
I think most of the people on this board tend to give Stanford athletes the benefit of the doubt. I think Richard Sherman is also kind of a "local favorite" because he is outspoken. It is also true that Richard Sherman has done a lot of things for the community, and he has done them without the "Hey, look at me." that lots of athletes associate with such activities. As far as compassion goes, I think the attitude on this board has been pretty balanced. Richard Sherman didn't attack anyone until the police arrived. His wife was obviously very concerned about Richard hurting himself, but she also said he was being aggressive. She wanted the police there, but obviously reluctantly. I think most of us on this board are just saddened by all this. Richard Sherman is pictured by all of us as a strong, outspoken, smart, capable Stanford guy. He exhibited very poor judgement in this situation, which detracts from the image we all want to have of him.

I obviously don't know what particular stress caused him to get drunk and behave irresponsibly. I can certainly theorize a bit though. He is facing the end of his career in the NFL. Nobody has beat a path to his door, despite how good he has been. It may be over. He is 33 years old. He isn't ready for it to be over, and certainly not ready for it to be over involuntarily. I am sure lots of his identity is tied up in being an NFL player. That is probably going to be taken from him. Independent of anything else, if I were in that situation, I would undoubtedly feel lots of angst. That may not be at all what caused him to do what he did, but it certainly can't be helping.

santa clara county still has a mobile emergency crisis team for mental health issues. daytime only currently, but when i worked at valley med center during my residency in the 70s, it was 24 hours. generally that team brought individuals in for evaluation more often than the police. seemed to work pretty well. it's my impression that they occasionally called the police in when they needed backup.

although it's true that the average social worker or psychologist isn't trained to handle an aggressive suicidal drunk, i'm not sure how that's relevant. we're talking about a specialty: professionals trained to handle - de-escalate if possible - mental health and substance crises. can be social workers, psychologists, psych techs, police or a combination. there are even a few communities where a dedicated team of police has special training in mental health issues. not the average social worker and not the average policeman with a gun and little or no training in mental health and de-escalation.

No question Social Workers have a role to play.  But admittedly I’m guessing here that the people you saw being brought in we’re not situations in which a 911 call had been placed by a family member indicating that there was a fight going on and somebody was threatening to kill themselves.

Domestic violence cases when they reach threat levels often involve weapons and unfortunately people are often badly injured or killed by the offender.  I truly don’t know how a social worker is equipped to walk into such a situation. (I’m talking generally here).

actually, most of the situations did involve someone threatening to kill themselves. it's the most common mental health emergency. yes, many involved fights. 

again, imo the issue is not whether the those intervening are social workers, psychologists, or police. imo what's found in the best situations is a team trained in crisis intervention / de-escalation in mental health / substance issues.

the team is well-trained to assess the potential for violence and to call the police as backup when needed (just as police call for backup).  but untrained police (or untrained social workers) are not the first responders.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - JustAnotherFan - 07-15-2021

I'm glad others here have pointed out that it is in no way universally believed that we need violence workers to respond to mental health situations. Just because society has accepted certain ways of doing something (driven often by the desire to maintain social control) does not mean that those are necessarily the most effective, safest, or even reasonable ways of doing something. I recently read and highly recommend Usual Cruelty: The Complicity of Lawyers in the Criminal Injustice System by Alec Karakatsanis, which highlights the decisions people within the criminal justice system make and how it is so often divorced from anything that is concerned with public safety.

If folks want to better understand why abolitionists have been working so hard to remove police from situations they may want to start with We Do This 'til We Free Us: Abolitionist Organizing and Transforming Justice by Mariame Kaba, or for a less radical, more deliberate checking off of the ways we need less policing they can read The End of Policing by Alex S. Vitale. 

Thanks to all those who were measured in their response to this incident, and who provided grace to one of our fellow alums.

lex24 - lex24 - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 12:32 PM)jonnyss Wrote:  
(07-15-2021, 11:28 AM)lex24 Wrote:  
(07-15-2021, 08:17 AM)jonnyss Wrote:  
(07-15-2021, 07:12 AM)Goose Wrote:  
(07-15-2021, 03:27 AM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:  Thank you FullMetal. The reason why so many people are advocating for mental health professionals to work with people in crisis instead of the police is not because they are hiding in affluent suburbs disconnected from reality--it is because they know the risks of bringing a violence worker with a gun into a tense situation.
I will agree with you when you can point to a social worker department that responds to all 911 calls regarding domestic violence and has a track record of success. AFAIK, there isn't such a situation in existence. Also, FWIW, many of the social workers that work for the cities and counties do carry weapons. I think that psychology professionals and social workers can and do contribute greatly to society. The few that I know have told me that if asked to predict if a patient will be a danger to themselves or others, even after spending many hours with the patient, they have a range of confidence levels. In many cases they have been wrong. It is a tough business. IMHO, the idea that a mental health professional can go to any given domestic violence situation , defuse it, and reliably produce a good outcome is at best a situation not in evidence. That is also certainly true with police. However, the legislatures have decided, probably correctly, that the only way to be sure that nothing untoward happens after the "intervention" is over is that the aggressive parties have to be removed from the situation. At that point, mental health professionals certainly need to be involved in subsequently deciding how to proceed. However, I think the mental health professionals will tell you that they are not the ones to remove the aggressive parties. That isn't their specialty.

Quote:I am also left wondering if Sherman would have received more initial compassion on this board if he were not an outspoken Black man.
I think most of the people on this board tend to give Stanford athletes the benefit of the doubt. I think Richard Sherman is also kind of a "local favorite" because he is outspoken. It is also true that Richard Sherman has done a lot of things for the community, and he has done them without the "Hey, look at me." that lots of athletes associate with such activities. As far as compassion goes, I think the attitude on this board has been pretty balanced. Richard Sherman didn't attack anyone until the police arrived. His wife was obviously very concerned about Richard hurting himself, but she also said he was being aggressive. She wanted the police there, but obviously reluctantly. I think most of us on this board are just saddened by all this. Richard Sherman is pictured by all of us as a strong, outspoken, smart, capable Stanford guy. He exhibited very poor judgement in this situation, which detracts from the image we all want to have of him.

I obviously don't know what particular stress caused him to get drunk and behave irresponsibly. I can certainly theorize a bit though. He is facing the end of his career in the NFL. Nobody has beat a path to his door, despite how good he has been. It may be over. He is 33 years old. He isn't ready for it to be over, and certainly not ready for it to be over involuntarily. I am sure lots of his identity is tied up in being an NFL player. That is probably going to be taken from him. Independent of anything else, if I were in that situation, I would undoubtedly feel lots of angst. That may not be at all what caused him to do what he did, but it certainly can't be helping.

santa clara county still has a mobile emergency crisis team for mental health issues. daytime only currently, but when i worked at valley med center during my residency in the 70s, it was 24 hours. generally that team brought individuals in for evaluation more often than the police. seemed to work pretty well. it's my impression that they occasionally called the police in when they needed backup.

although it's true that the average social worker or psychologist isn't trained to handle an aggressive suicidal drunk, i'm not sure how that's relevant. we're talking about a specialty: professionals trained to handle - de-escalate if possible - mental health and substance crises. can be social workers, psychologists, psych techs, police or a combination. there are even a few communities where a dedicated team of police has special training in mental health issues. not the average social worker and not the average policeman with a gun and little or no training in mental health and de-escalation.

No question Social Workers have a role to play.  But admittedly I’m guessing here that the people you saw being brought in we’re not situations in which a 911 call had been placed by a family member indicating that there was a fight going on and somebody was threatening to kill themselves.

Domestic violence cases when they reach threat levels often involve weapons and unfortunately people are often badly injured or killed by the offender.  I truly don’t know how a social worker is equipped to walk into such a situation. (I’m talking generally here).

actually, most of the situations did involve someone threatening to kill themselves. it's the most common mental health emergency. yes, many involved fights. 

again, imo the issue is not whether the those intervening are social workers, psychologists, or police. imo what's found in the best situations is a team trained in crisis intervention / de-escalation in mental health / substance issues.

the team is well-trained to assess the potential for violence and to call the police as backup when needed (just as police call for backup).  but untrained police (or untrained social workers) are not the first responders.

Agree completely on the need for training.

RE: Richard Sherman in trouble? - DC 86 - 07-15-2021

(07-15-2021, 12:50 PM)JustAnotherFan Wrote:  I'm glad others here have pointed out that it is in no way universally believed that we need violence workers to respond to mental health situations. Just because society has accepted certain ways of doing something (driven often by the desire to maintain social control) does not mean that those are necessarily the most effective, safest, or even reasonable ways of doing something. I recently read and highly recommend Usual Cruelty: The Complicity of Lawyers in the Criminal Injustice System by Alec Karakatsanis, which highlights the decisions people within the criminal justice system make and how it is so often divorced from anything that is concerned with public safety.

If folks want to better understand why abolitionists have been working so hard to remove police from situations they may want to start with We Do This 'til We Free Us: Abolitionist Organizing and Transforming Justice by Mariame Kaba, or for a less radical, more deliberate checking off of the ways we need less policing they can read The End of Policing by Alex S. Vitale. 

Thanks to all those who were measured in their response to this incident, and who provided grace to one of our fellow alums.

Obviously your continued reference to police as "violence workers" indicates your overall position and bias. But more to the point you exclusively refer to a "mental health situation" without acknowledging that this was also a "public safety situation." RS appears to have consumed a bottle of Hennessy and a bottle of vodka, driven his vehicle until he crashed it (rendering it temporarily unusable) and then walked two miles to his in-laws' house and attempted to kick the door in. If a social worker or mental health professional are dispatched, what do they do if RS rejects their assistance and acquires another vehicle (or manages to restart his vehicle) and hits the road again? Enforcing drunk driving laws seems like a fundamental and vital police function. Taking RS into custody is absolutely necessary to prevent harm not only to himself but to others, and I fail to see how a social worker would have accomplished this. Are you arguing that drunk drivers shouldn't be detained, out of compassion for the issues that may have precipitated their drinking?

I believe that I am being very compassionate and sensitive to RS's possible mental health struggles, but where is similar concern for potential victims of his drunk driving, or for his in-laws who surely were terrified? perhaps I am misunderstanding your posts, because we can certainly agree on the need in these situations for multi-agency response (police and mental health professionals) or at a minimum much more extensive training of police. But I am mystified by the notion that police weren't required to take a severely inebriated and unstable individual into custody. They accomplished that without injuring RS while preventing any injury to innocent drivers or pedestrians, or to RS's family members. Seems like an outstanding outcome to me, under the circumstances, and not a source for criticism.