CFP 2021 - Printable Version
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lex24 - lex24 - 12-06-2021
(12-06-2021, 11:42 AM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-06-2021, 11:08 AM)lex24 Wrote: Big 10 is, IMO, the second best. Michigan has a great chance to make a statement.
I feel that the gap between the SEC and Big-X is not as large this year as it usually is.
And Michigan is constructed in a way that can produce an upset; their game against Ohio State is a blueprint for how they can defeat teams that have more speed and talent.
Agree. I’ve seen that blueprint somewhere else. Hard, these days to remember where….
RE: CFP 2021 - jacket3ree - 12-06-2021
(12-05-2021, 10:10 AM)martyup Wrote: This is the perfect season to use in the argument for an 8 team CFP expansion. The eight would consist of each Power 5 conference champion plus the best 3 from the
Group of 5 and independents.
YES! Exactly. No at-large garbage. Alabama lost to Texas A&M. Georgia lost to Alabama. Georgia has the "better" loss, but Alabama clearly outclassed them when it mattered. No second chances. That said, if Georgia gets past Michigan, I think they win it all.
Go Blue and To Hell with Georgia. 1980 and counting.....
RE: CFP 2021 - OutsiderFan - 12-06-2021
I'm going to go on record and say Michigan will beat Georgia.
Stetson Bennett is simply not a good enough QB if the game is put on his small shoulders. Alabama made that abundantly clear and Michigan's defense is at least as good as Alabama's.
RE: CFP 2021 - teejers1 - 12-06-2021
(12-06-2021, 07:36 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I'm going to go on record and say Michigan will beat Georgia.
Stetson Bennett is simply not a good enough QB if the game is put on his small shoulders. Alabama made that abundantly clear and Michigan's defense is at least as good as Alabama's.
It's possible . . . but then again, the Vegas bookmakers are pretty smart (and it's not like Big Blue doesn't have hordes of fans willing to plunk $$ down on Michigan).
Not a big fan of Harbaugh the person, but I am reasonably happy for Michigan fans (some colleagues, friends, etc.) who finally got the tOSU monkey off their back and have joined the ranks of CFP participants. From here, the only benefit of Michigan making CFP is that it should put to rest forever the posts attempting to equate the coaching ability of Shaw versus Harbaugh, which posts were always off-base. I mean, could you even imagine a Harbaugh-coached college team falling to the depths we've witnessed the last 3 seasons,* and this one in particular? No effing way. He would not stand for it. Our guy was seemingly powerless to stop the free fall, and over the next 2 seasons we're going to see if he has any ability to pick up the pieces. The current recruiting class - if it holds - is a good start (though the impact likely won't be felt, at earliest, until 2023). But the rebuild will take more than that. A lot more.
* Please don't point to the Covid season as an indicator of anything. That Michigan team would have handled Stanford, perhaps more than that (Sagarin ranked the 2-4 Wolverines more highly than the 4-2 Cardinal).
RE: CFP 2021 - BostonCard - 12-06-2021
Teejers, citing Sagarin in a year when the conferences weren’t connected is silly.
BC
RE: CFP 2021 - cardcrimson - 12-06-2021
(12-05-2021, 01:06 PM)Canalejas Wrote: I wish the committee would have made the SEC schools play a rematch in the semifinal.
Agree 100%. But money talks. ESPN wants an all SEC championship if possible. The Big 10 is Fox. . . .
(12-06-2021, 07:36 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I'm going to go on record and say Michigan will beat Georgia.
Stetson Bennett is simply not a good enough QB if the game is put on his small shoulders. Alabama made that abundantly clear and Michigan's defense is at least as good as Alabama's.
And that's what a lot of folks said about Mac Jones.
Personally, I love Bennett's story and root for him, but not necessarily for Georgia.
RE: CFP 2021 - teejers1 - 12-07-2021
(12-06-2021, 09:13 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Teejers, citing Sagarin in a year when the conferences weren’t connected is silly.
BC
You could be right (or directionally right), though it begs the question why did Sagarin even bother to compile rankings if it was silly to do so?
Regardless, did you watch Michigan play that season? (I assume you watched 4-2 Stanford).
If so, which team do you think was better that year?
To me, it wasn't even close. Michigan looked superior.
RE: CFP 2021 - Austroturf - 12-07-2021
(12-06-2021, 08:59 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-06-2021, 07:36 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote: I'm going to go on record and say Michigan will beat Georgia.
Stetson Bennett is simply not a good enough QB if the game is put on his small shoulders. Alabama made that abundantly clear and Michigan's defense is at least as good as Alabama's.
It's possible . . . but then again, the Vegas bookmakers are pretty smart (and it's not like Big Blue doesn't have hordes of fans willing to plunk $$ down on Michigan).
Not a big fan of Harbaugh the person, but I am reasonably happy for Michigan fans (some colleagues, friends, etc.) who finally got the tOSU monkey off their back and have joined the ranks of CFP participants. From here, the only benefit of Michigan making CFP is that it should put to rest forever the posts attempting to equate the coaching ability of Shaw versus Harbaugh, which posts were always off-base. I mean, could you even imagine a Harbaugh-coached college team falling to the depths we've witnessed the last 3 seasons,* and this one in particular? No effing way. He would not stand for it. Our guy was seemingly powerless to stop the free fall, and over the next 2 seasons we're going to see if he has any ability to pick up the pieces. The current recruiting class - if it holds - is a good start (though the impact likely won't be felt, at earliest, until 2023). But the rebuild will take more than that. A lot more.
* Please don't point to the Covid season as an indicator of anything. That Michigan team would have handled Stanford, perhaps more than that (Sagarin ranked the 2-4 Wolverines more highly than the 4-2 Cardinal).
Harbaugh definitely has his rough edges, and his focus on winning, winning, winning at all costs can sometimes produce collateral damage among his players, staff and professional colleagues. That said, I have an undeniable admiration for people who are fierce competitors: Harbaugh wants to win, will do what is necessary to get there and, so far, has not crossed any ethical lines. Further, as a Stanford football fan, I feel a debt of gratitude to the man who resurrected our moribund program. Couple that with my distaste for the SEC-centric drift of NCAA football, in general, and ESPN, in particular, and I am hoping Harbaugh and his Wolverines get two SEC scalps on their way to the championship. Please note that I have strong historical ties to Michigan State, so I have had to overcome some Maize-and-Blue allergies in this process. Of course, a Bearcat-Wolverine NC game would also be cool, just not very likely to happen.
RE: CFP 2021 - DC 86 - 12-07-2021
(12-06-2021, 09:29 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: But money talks. ESPN wants an all SEC championship if possible. The Big 10 is Fox. . . .
ESPN wants/needs the highest rated championship game matchup, and that's Alabama-Michigan.
P.S. The Big 10 is split between Fox and ESPN while the SEC is split between CBS and ESPN. Fox and CBS currently have first choice each week on which game to broadcast in their featured window.
RE: CFP 2021 - BostonCard - 12-07-2021
(12-07-2021, 12:20 AM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-06-2021, 09:13 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Teejers, citing Sagarin in a year when the conferences weren’t connected is silly.
BC
You could be right (or directionally right), though it begs the question why did Sagarin even bother to compile rankings if it was silly to do so?
Regardless, did you watch Michigan play that season? (I assume you watched 4-2 Stanford.
If so, which team do you think was better that year?
Sagarin published his rankings because USA Today pays him to do so.
I watched Michigan last year. I also watched Stanford go on a months long road trip where they were practicing in public parks and go 4-0 in that span. I saw them show incredible grit that doesn’t get captured by Sagarin ratings (and, that was sadly missing this year). Put Michigan through that gauntlet and then ask me what the eye test says… because the Michigan team I watched them struggle to beat Rutgers in overtime, lose to a Michigan state team whose only other win was against Northwestern and get waxed by Wisconsin.
BC
RE: CFP 2021 - teejers1 - 12-07-2021
(12-07-2021, 09:59 PM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-07-2021, 12:20 AM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-06-2021, 09:13 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Teejers, citing Sagarin in a year when the conferences weren’t connected is silly.
BC
You could be right (or directionally right), though it begs the question why did Sagarin even bother to compile rankings if it was silly to do so?
Regardless, did you watch Michigan play that season? (I assume you watched 4-2 Stanford.
If so, which team do you think was better that year?
Sagarin published his rankings because USA Today pays him to do so.
I watched Michigan last year. I also watched Stanford go on a months long road trip where they were practicing in public parks and go 4-0 in that span. I saw them show incredible grit that doesn’t get captured by Sagarin ratings (and, that was sadly missing this year). Put Michigan through that gauntlet and then ask me what the eye test says… because the Michigan team I watched them struggle to beat Rutgers in overtime, lose to a Michigan state team whose only other win was against Northwestern and get waxed by Wisconsin.
BC
Yet another area where we'll have to agree to disagree. (Of course, I also note that you did not disagree with proposition that Harbaugh NEVER would have let his program sink to the depths we've witnessed on The Farm of late . . . ).
RE: CFP 2021 - BostonCard - 12-07-2021
Teejers, just because eve I don’t rebut every point you make doesn’t mean I agree with everything. Sometimes, I just don’t have time to argue.
BC
RE: CFP 2021 - martyup - 12-08-2021
(12-07-2021, 10:51 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Teejers, just because eve I don’t rebut every point you make doesn’t mean I agree with everything. Sometimes, I just don’t have time to argue.
BC
Uhmm, I don't think that's how the internet works. If someone says something on the internet, it's true until rebutted, right?
![[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia3.giphy.com%2Fmedi...f=1&nofb=1]](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia3.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FB0r0JTQiZ8hAQ%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1)
RE: CFP 2021 - teejers1 - 12-08-2021
(12-07-2021, 10:51 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Teejers, just because eve I don’t rebut every point you make doesn’t mean I agree with everything. Sometimes, I just don’t have time to argue.
BC
Okay, just a yes or no then, do you think a Harbaugh led college football team would fall to the depths Stanford has under Shaw?
RE: CFP 2021 - Goose - 12-08-2021
(12-08-2021, 03:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Okay, just a yes or no then, do you think a Harbaugh led college football team would fall to the depths Stanford has under Shaw?I am not BC, but I will jump in here anyway. No, Harbaugh wouldn't fall that low because when things got pear shaped enough he would do something stupid and get fired. His conduct rubs people the wrong way at times. He does not deal with adversity calmly. That will catch up to a coach if he has a few 6-6 type seasons, so he would be long gone before he went 3-9. As it is, 2020 almost got him. Some thought he would be let go at that point.
RE: CFP 2021 - teejers1 - 12-08-2021
(12-08-2021, 04:03 PM)Goose Wrote:(12-08-2021, 03:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Okay, just a yes or no then, do you think a Harbaugh led college football team would fall to the depths Stanford has under Shaw?I am not BC, but I will jump in here anyway. No, Harbaugh wouldn't fall that low because when things got pear shaped enough he would do something stupid and get fired. His conduct rubs people the wrong way at times. He does not deal with adversity calmly. That will catch up to a coach if he has a few 6-6 type seasons, so he would be long gone before he went 3-9. As it is, 2020 almost got him. Some thought he would be let go at that point.
Nice evasion.
Harbaugh's record as a college head coach:
USD:
7-4
11-1
11-1
Stanford:
4-8
5-7
8-5
12-1
Michigan:
10-3
10-3
8-5
10-3
9-4
2-4
12-1 (In CFP, still game(s) left).
What leads you to believe that Harbaugh would have "a few 6-6 type seasons" leading to him getting canned?
Respectfully, in your insistence on not wanting to denigrate Shaw - especially in comparison to Harbs (which is understandable) - you're reaching . . . for anything.
RE: CFP 2021 - DC 86 - 12-08-2021
(12-08-2021, 04:03 PM)Goose Wrote:(12-08-2021, 03:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Okay, just a yes or no then, do you think a Harbaugh led college football team would fall to the depths Stanford has under Shaw?I am not BC, but I will jump in here anyway. No, Harbaugh wouldn't fall that low because when things got pear shaped enough he would do something stupid and get fired. His conduct rubs people the wrong way at times. He does not deal with adversity calmly. That will catch up to a coach if he has a few 6-6 type seasons, so he would be long gone before he went 3-9. As it is, 2020 almost got him. Some thought he would be let go at that point.
I disagree. Harbaugh fired his good friend Don Brown as DC, he eased out his longtime colleague Tim Drevno as OC, he took away responsibility from Pep Hamilton and transferred it to Josh Gattis, leading to Hamilton leaving. He stepped up his recruiting and transfer game with a battalion of younger assistants and staffers.
There's been a narrative in the national media and on this board too that Harbaugh is good at injecting EUTM into a team but that after a few years his intense style grates on people and that it's better to replace him at that point. Yet he is in his seventh year at Michigan with his best team by far and a legitimate chance at a national championship. He had a miserable season last year but didn't do anything stupid to get fired, to the contrary he fought for his job by converting half his salary into incentives.
As you said, his conduct does rub people the wrong way and he doesn't deal with adversity calmly. Those aren't necessarily negative attributes for a college football coach. They describe Nick Saban pretty well, for example. When Harbaugh left Stanford there was a common reaction of "great turnaround job but not that sorry to see you go, turning the program over to a steadier hand is good." Seeing what Harbaugh is doing at Michigan (and anticipating that he will build off of this year in terms of recruiting next year) makes me believe that if Harbaugh had remained at Stanford he would have taken the necessary measures to reinvigorate the program when that was called for, without torching the program.
RE: CFP 2021 - gailtate - 12-08-2021
(12-08-2021, 04:50 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-08-2021, 04:03 PM)Goose Wrote:(12-08-2021, 03:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Okay, just a yes or no then, do you think a Harbaugh led college football team would fall to the depths Stanford has under Shaw?I am not BC, but I will jump in here anyway. No, Harbaugh wouldn't fall that low because when things got pear shaped enough he would do something stupid and get fired. His conduct rubs people the wrong way at times. He does not deal with adversity calmly. That will catch up to a coach if he has a few 6-6 type seasons, so he would be long gone before he went 3-9. As it is, 2020 almost got him. Some thought he would be let go at that point.
I disagree. Harbaugh fired his good friend Don Brown as DC, he eased out his longtime colleague Tim Drevno as OC, he took away responsibility from Pep Hamilton and transferred it to Josh Gattis, leading to Hamilton leaving. He stepped up his recruiting and transfer game with a battalion of younger assistants and staffers.
There's been a narrative in the national media and on this board too that Harbaugh is good at injecting EUTM into a team but that after a few years his intense style grates on people and that it's better to replace him at that point. Yet he is in his seventh year at Michigan with his best team by far and a legitimate chance at a national championship. He had a miserable season last year but didn't do anything stupid to get fired, to the contrary he fought for his job by converting half his salary into incentives.
As you said, his conduct does rub people the wrong way and he doesn't deal with adversity calmly. Those aren't necessarily negative attributes for a college football coach. They describe Nick Saban pretty well, for example. When Harbaugh left Stanford there was a common reaction of "great turnaround job but not that sorry to see you go, turning the program over to a steadier hand is good." Seeing what Harbaugh is doing at Michigan (and anticipating that he will build off of this year in terms of recruiting next year) makes me believe that if Harbaugh had remained at Stanford he would have taken the necessary measures to reinvigorate the program when that was called for, without torching the program.
"...if Harbaugh had remained at Stanford he would have taken the necessary measures to reinvigorate the program when that was called for..."
All of which calls for the flint that is the diametric opposite of Shaw's apparent mentality and temperament. This is the basis of my argument that he can never, ever regain the glory years. It's just not in him. He is not that guy.
RE: CFP 2021 - Goose - 12-08-2021
(12-08-2021, 04:29 PM)teejers1 Wrote:First of all, this question is about Harbaugh, not Shaw. How I answer a question about Harbaugh says nothing at all about Shaw, good, bad, or otherwise. This answer compares Harbaugh to nobody, not Shaw, not Kiffen, not Elway. It is about JH. I evaded nothing. I answered the question. Period.(12-08-2021, 04:03 PM)Goose Wrote:(12-08-2021, 03:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Okay, just a yes or no then, do you think a Harbaugh led college football team would fall to the depths Stanford has under Shaw?I am not BC, but I will jump in here anyway. No, Harbaugh wouldn't fall that low because when things got pear shaped enough he would do something stupid and get fired. His conduct rubs people the wrong way at times. He does not deal with adversity calmly. That will catch up to a coach if he has a few 6-6 type seasons, so he would be long gone before he went 3-9. As it is, 2020 almost got him. Some thought he would be let go at that point.
Nice evasion.
Harbaugh's record as a college head coach:
USD:
7-4
11-1
11-1
Stanford:
4-8
5-7
8-5
12-1
Michigan:
10-3
10-3
8-5
10-3
9-4
2-4
12-1 (In CFP, still game(s) left).
What leads you to believe that Harbaugh would have "a few 6-6 type seasons" leading to him getting canned?
Respectfully, in your insistence on not wanting to denigrate Shaw - especially in comparison to Harbs (which is understandable) - you're reaching . . . for anything.
Second, what makes me think Harbaugh would get canned after a couple of 6-6 seasons was somewhat clear (I thought) in my answer. He almost got canned over the 2-4 in 2020, but COVID probably saved him. They fired Brady Hoke after 7-6 5-7. Harbaugh rubs some people the wrong way, as I said. He won't get much sympathy based on his personality. He also has a history of making remarks that could be considered objectionable. Put those facts together and I think it probable he would be gone.
As BC pointed out, he has made many changes in staff while searching for the formula to beat tOSU. Up until this year, those changes didn't work real well. He had continuing very good but not great results. He was looking for an answer, and appeared to be flailing around a bit. He stayed at Michigan by taking a brobdingnagian pay cut in 2021, going from an 8M base salary down to about 4.1M plus incentives. That shows he wasn't getting any mulligans.
I happen to think Jim Harbaugh is a pretty good coach. I also think he is willing to try things to improve his team. Sometimes, things you try don't work out and you go 6-6. So far, that hasn't happened to him, but it could. JH has also used EUTM to build closely knit teams that played hard and perhaps better than they objectively were at times. He created an "Us against the world" ethos, and coupled that with "We get no respect". That can work great if the players buy in. He certainly did that at Stanford when he first arrived, and he did the same at the 49ers. When he came to Michigan, he couldn't really do that, because they weren't terrible. They were just not as good as they needed to be. He has had some ups and downs at Michigan but he has basically hung in there.
In 2020 the wheels kind of came off. That was bad, but the pundits predicted his team would finish 4th in the East and they question the competence of the offense, which was worse. Harbaugh had been moving to a "speed in space" approach, but this years team simply didn't have the athletes to do that. To his credit, he looked at what he had and realized the previous approach wasn't viable this year. He needed to adapt to the actual players he had, not the ones he wished he had. However, he now could build his "band of brothers", and he did. Please read
https://michigan.rivals.com/news/column-program-buy-in-vaults-michigan-to-championship-heights
Harbaugh is a good coach partly because he can take advantage of situations like this. Has he "turned the program around"? Perhaps. Will he now dominate tOSU? Maybe, but reading the article makes one think it is a serendipity. If he can sustain the ethos, it may work for a while. After, who knows?
RE: CFP 2021 - Farm93 - 12-08-2021
(12-08-2021, 05:36 PM)gailtate Wrote:If Harbaugh had stayed??(12-08-2021, 04:50 PM)DC 86 Wrote:(12-08-2021, 04:03 PM)Goose Wrote:(12-08-2021, 03:28 PM)teejers1 Wrote: Okay, just a yes or no then, do you think a Harbaugh led college football team would fall to the depths Stanford has under Shaw?I am not BC, but I will jump in here anyway. No, Harbaugh wouldn't fall that low because when things got pear shaped enough he would do something stupid and get fired. His conduct rubs people the wrong way at times. He does not deal with adversity calmly. That will catch up to a coach if he has a few 6-6 type seasons, so he would be long gone before he went 3-9. As it is, 2020 almost got him. Some thought he would be let go at that point.
I disagree. Harbaugh fired his good friend Don Brown as DC, he eased out his longtime colleague Tim Drevno as OC, he took away responsibility from Pep Hamilton and transferred it to Josh Gattis, leading to Hamilton leaving. He stepped up his recruiting and transfer game with a battalion of younger assistants and staffers.
There's been a narrative in the national media and on this board too that Harbaugh is good at injecting EUTM into a team but that after a few years his intense style grates on people and that it's better to replace him at that point. Yet he is in his seventh year at Michigan with his best team by far and a legitimate chance at a national championship. He had a miserable season last year but didn't do anything stupid to get fired, to the contrary he fought for his job by converting half his salary into incentives.
As you said, his conduct does rub people the wrong way and he doesn't deal with adversity calmly. Those aren't necessarily negative attributes for a college football coach. They describe Nick Saban pretty well, for example. When Harbaugh left Stanford there was a common reaction of "great turnaround job but not that sorry to see you go, turning the program over to a steadier hand is good." Seeing what Harbaugh is doing at Michigan (and anticipating that he will build off of this year in terms of recruiting next year) makes me believe that if Harbaugh had remained at Stanford he would have taken the necessary measures to reinvigorate the program when that was called for, without torching the program.
"...if Harbaugh had remained at Stanford he would have taken the necessary measures to reinvigorate the program when that was called for..."
All of which calls for the flint that is the diametric opposite of Shaw's apparent mentality and temperament. This is the basis of my argument that he can never, ever regain the glory years. It's just not in him. He is not that guy.
What are we talking about? He was open to new opportunities almost before he got on campus. Those in the Bay Area likely can share the stories of him meeting with Michigan and NFL types very, very early in his tenure. The idea that he would be at Stanford for 12-15+ years is beyond crazy.
If we want to live in a fantasy land let's at least explore one that is credible.
What if Andrew Luck was the Head Coach, Gerhart was the OC and Sherman was the DC? Could they return Stanford to 2009-2016 glory?
As silly as that may sound, it is far more likely than any scenario that would have had Harbaugh at Stanford for a decade while winning at any clip close to what Shaw was doing in the 2011-2018 years.
Any coach that has the passion and drive that many believe Shaw should possess, would simply not stay at Stanford after their first decent year.
It is just the reality. If they had that type of drive and had no meaningful affinity to Stanford, then they would logically drive to the next prestigious challenge once it was available. That would mean going to the best of the SEC, the best of the BigTen or the NFL.
FWIW - Stanford is not alone in this category. Same is true for most Pac-12, ACC and Big12 schools. If someone was going to settle for staying at Stanford with no particular affinity for the university then almost by definition they would not have the drive most on this board want from a coach.
Harbaugh here for 12-15 years is entirely inconsistent with the notion that he has some type of magical drive to be successful at the highest heights in the coaching world.