WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - Printable Version
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RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - chimera - 02-25-2022
I kinda don't think we will play like that against S. Carolina. Every season has ebbs and flows with some stinkers mixed in there, and this was a bit of a stinker, even though it was a win. That was a sluggish, low energy sorta game. WSU is a decent team but I still think they are not really very good. That they are in second place is nice for them but shows the other teams that were supposed to be contenders are not living up to their billing, not even close. WSU doesn't shoot very well. They don't rebound very well. They don't have a great inside game. They are not fast or quick. Their defense is ok, but mostly I think they switched up on us and we struggled to figure it all out, plus shot poorly from outside. Basically we played at their pace and played ugly basketball to match their ugly basketball. Good on them to win as much as they do, but this was us uglying up the game, not them being great.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - WBB fan - 02-25-2022
Did I miss anyone commenting on how not having Lexie affected Stanford? I don't recall seeing anything about this in the Cardboard comments. Tara implied this in the Presser when she talked about low energy and missing Lexie. Lexie waxes and wanes on scoring, but she's ALWAYS high energy. I think her sitting really impacted the game.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Washington State Thu 8pm - teejers1 - 02-25-2022
(02-24-2022, 10:47 PM)WBB fan Wrote: Ugly, but it's a W. WSU proved it's dangerous.
I want to agree with you re: dangerous nature of WSU (and you could see how game out come could have been different if WSU was hitting threes early).
Still, have you ever felt more comfortable - as in, game result never in doubt - in a game with a final 7 point margin?
IDK . . . never got the sense that WSU had any legit shot of winning that game.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - M T - 02-25-2022
(02-25-2022, 12:10 AM)MV72018 Wrote: We had 17 turnovers tonight and WSU outscored us 22-17 in Q4. If we play like that against South Carolina -- assuming weNeither Stanford nor South Carolina is unbeatable.
reach a rematch with the Gamecocks -- they could well beat us, possibly easily.
Compare this game to South Carolina's game against Arkansas earlier:
Stfd-WSU SoCar-Ark
18-9 16-1 Opponent record as of now
7 9 Winning margin
41.3-31.8 41.2-28.2 FG%
29.6-26.3 38.9-24.1 3PT%
85.7-57.1 80.0-84.6 FT%
47-30 45-25 Reb
12-18 13-16 PF
13-9 10-7 A
17-9 19-10 TO
4-6 5-9 Stl
11-1 8-4 Blocks
33 54 Total bench minutes
Missing Normal
1 starter lineup
I believed Sling's schedule and thought the broadcast was delayed an hour, so I had to play catch-up. I didn't have as much chance to review plays. All-in-all, they did ok for missing a key element of their chemistry. Remember, it was not only the team that was missing Lexie, but there is so much chemistry with her twin sister that was missing too.
Hannah, starting for Lexie, made some relatively (for her) poor decisions, but her stat line is reasonable 12pts (2/7 from 3, 3/5 from 2), 1A, 2TO, 1 Reb, 1 foul. I thought she had a block that didn't get credited. Remember when some were wondering why she got so much time earlier in the season? She got 34 minutes tonight.
Cam did a really good job when she was in, and she did manage to play almost 3/4 of the game. I noticed one of the fouls on her was described by the announcers as on another player. I think Cam getting to 29 minutes on the floor was perhaps the biggest thing to note about the game.
Haley did well too. I don't recall seeing any blown defense that hurt us. She really can cut through a defense.
Anna was really quiet tonight. A full 38 minutes, but only 4 points, 1 steal, 1 assist. I expect she was integral to our defense but so smooth, I didn't notice it much.
Lacie was also quiet tonight. Initially, I was hoping she'd show she could do as well as her sister on offense. But we need her defense.
I expect you noticed we played our subs less tonight. We never got to a 20-pt lead, and none of our subs lit it up. Perhaps it was also strategic, to get our starters used to more minutes in a game.
Maybe some minds think alike, but I noticed the announcers commented on some items that have recently been in the CardBoard:
- 3 players with claim for POY from the team leading the league by far. Coming up with that independently would not be a surprise.
- Kamie Ethridge as a possibility for COY. Again no surprise.
- 40-minute averages for some of our players (I believe it was Fran she highlighted). I rarely hear announcers adjust stats for playing time ("Boy, what an improvement in scoring this year." when pts/min go down but minutes go up.)
Yes, (to agree with the announcers) it was a grind-it-out kind of game. No blow-out; it could have gotten really close, but Stanford held them at bay.
(Oh, btw, that was cute, BC. Almost too cute. I half expected Martyup to post a couple of pictures of a ballerina and an Anglican Bishop.)
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - 81alum - 02-25-2022
I was at the game, and I thought the refereeing allowed the game to be very physical. This contributed to a low scoring game.
As was pointed out, Washington State made little effort to get O-boards on long shots but sent players back on defense as soon as a shot was off. They still managed 12 O-boards in the game, but they mainly succeeded in making us play in the half court offense for the whole night. We still managed 6 fast break points and 30 points in the paint in what became a plodding defensive battle.
I am becoming concerned about our offense. What WSU did last night is similar to what Oregon and Colorado did. In 3 of our last 4 games we have been held to 61-66 points. Those totals are way below our season averages. Against WSU, we went from 82 in the first game to 61 the second. With Oregon, we went from 80 in the first game to 66 in the second. I think all these teams have figured out a formula for messing up Stanford's "beautiful basketball." Dawn Staley and JR Payne and Jeff Walz have each said as much on more than one occasion. Not only are they taking away the transition offense, there are fewer and fewer back door cuts as they adjust to our offense and learn how to defend it.
What Brink said in the presser was revealing--that she is scouted to go right and so she has been working on her left handed shots. But she is also doubled.
Not having Lexie out there probably made the WSU defense a little easier. It is not that Jump is easy to defend--but Jump is less versatile an attacker and can be defended with a more average defender than Lexie can. Add to that the fact that with Wilson and Lacie we are putting two players on the floor that are not perceived by the opponent as strong offensive threats and we have an offense that can be defended one on one, with a defender peeling off to double Brink from time to time.
Brink I thought was not aggressive enough on several occasions when she got the ball on the left elbow and had a single defender to beat to drive to the basket. I was surprised that she just seemed to refuse to drive, but wound up passing. Whether this is because it would have meant going to her left or something else I don't know.
In short, my worry is that our offense loses effectiveness as the season progresses and other coaches and teams become more practiced in how to stop it, and see more film from teams that have been successful on defense against us. Our offense overwhelms many teams the first time we play them, but the second time seems to always be a slog. I worry about playing some of these teams a third time in the Pac 12 tournament or South Carolina a second time in the NCAAs. Repeated matchups do not seem to favor us.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - chimera - 02-25-2022
I understand the concern, but I have a slightly different take. It's a long season and we always, always, always have a few games where the team doesn't look that great. Conference games are often a slog, more so later in the season when teams have already played each other. Add in that our team knows they are better than let's say WSU, and sometimes you get a game like yesterday where we play down to their level. Add in again that we just had a big, tough victory over Oregon and over OSU on the road. And no Lexie. Add all that and you get lower energy for this one. Senior weekend too, with all the emotion that contains. The last two games our outside shooting has been poor. If some of those open threes go in last night, we don't have this discussion. WSU plays physical defense but is not speedy. That means a lot of bodying and grabbing.
I did think our posts could have driven more when they had the ball at the FT line and WSU's defense was out on the perimeter such that the basket was wide open. We did that only a few times and I think every time we got a basket or a foul on WSU. I also thought we looked confused as to what to do on offense, I assume because WSU changed their defense enough that we had not anticipated they would do what they did. We moved the ball too slowly. Run the offense better is the answer, which we surely can do.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - BobK - 02-25-2022
Well I was going to add my thoughts. So wish we had held that late 14-16 point margin
81 excellent post you said it all
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - BillBradley - 02-25-2022
(02-25-2022, 07:19 AM)81alum Wrote: I was at the game, and I thought the refereeing allowed the game to be very physical. This contributed to a low scoring game.All good points 81. One thing I'll add to the offensive performance - our three point shooting has been down. We are firing on all cylinders when we're playing fast, getting open three's, and hitting them. But as you mention, when teams take away our transition it really shows. That said, if our guards shoot to their normal percentages last night we pick up a bunch more points and it opens it up for our inside play.
As was pointed out, Washington State made little effort to get O-boards on long shots but sent players back on defense as soon as a shot was off. They still managed 12 O-boards in the game, but they mainly succeeded in making us play in the half court offense for the whole night. We still managed 6 fast break points and 30 points in the paint in what became a plodding defensive battle.
I am becoming concerned about our offense. What WSU did last night is similar to what Oregon and Colorado did. In 3 of our last 4 games we have been held to 61-66 points. Those totals are way below our season averages. Against WSU, we went from 82 in the first game to 61 the second. With Oregon, we went from 80 in the first game to 66 in the second. I think all these teams have figured out a formula for messing up Stanford's "beautiful basketball." Dawn Staley and JR Payne and Jeff Walz have each said as much on more than one occasion. Not only are they taking away the transition offense, there are fewer and fewer back door cuts as they adjust to our offense and learn how to defend it.
What Brink said in the presser was revealing--that she is scouted to go right and so she has been working on her left handed shots. But she is also doubled.
Not having Lexie out there probably made the WSU defense a little easier. It is not that Jump is easy to defend--but Jump is less versatile an attacker and can be defended with a more average defender than Lexie can. Add to that the fact that with Wilson and Lacie we are putting two players on the floor that are not perceived by the opponent as strong offensive threats and we have an offense that can be defended one on one, with a defender peeling off to double Brink from time to time.
Brink I thought was not aggressive enough on several occasions when she got the ball on the left elbow and had a single defender to beat to drive to the basket. I was surprised that she just seemed to refuse to drive, but wound up passing. Whether this is because it would have meant going to her left or something else I don't know.
In short, my worry is that our offense loses effectiveness as the season progresses and other coaches and teams become more practiced in how to stop it, and see more film from teams that have been successful on defense against us. Our offense overwhelms many teams the first time we play them, but the second time seems to always be a slog. I worry about playing some of these teams a third time in the Pac 12 tournament or South Carolina a second time in the NCAAs. Repeated matchups do not seem to favor us.
Also, wanted to mention something else...With WSU not sending anyone to the boards, Tara decided to go with 3 guards + Haley + Cam at all times and never went to a 2 post look. With Lexie out, Hannah, Anna, and Lacie all played over 30 minutes and Jana picked up 12. Also, Cam gobbled up 30 minutes and the other minutes at that spot went to Fran. So we saw some weird stuff with this "new" combination.
1) Our players looked confused a lot in our half court set. Jump and Lacie found themselves in the high post at times where they never play.
2) A few quick hitters and out of bounds plays never went off. Especially the one at the end of the first half where we saw total confusion and then Cam got upset. BTW, I actually saw that as a sign of growth for Cam. Less giggly and more determined.
3) Only a couple minutes for Ashten and Kiki. When Ashten came off, Tara took a moment to talk to her.
My point in all this is that I found it really interesting that Tara would go that direction. Kiki has been playing so well and we could have just pounded it down low on them or stretched them big time with Ashten and Cam. But I can see how going small was a good choice as well. Also, Jana has been shooting it great and we might need her in the tourney against smaller teams so this was a chance to test a different rotation. It just didn't quite work and resulted in some messy play. Tara did mention in the presser that the offense got better as the game went on.
Go Card!
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - TheWildJacko - 02-25-2022
(02-25-2022, 07:19 AM)81alum Wrote: I was at the game, and I thought the refereeing allowed the game to be very physical. This contributed to a low scoring game.
As was pointed out, Washington State made little effort to get O-boards on long shots but sent players back on defense as soon as a shot was off. They still managed 12 O-boards in the game, but they mainly succeeded in making us play in the half court offense for the whole night. We still managed 6 fast break points and 30 points in the paint in what became a plodding defensive battle.
I am becoming concerned about our offense. What WSU did last night is similar to what Oregon and Colorado did. In 3 of our last 4 games we have been held to 61-66 points. Those totals are way below our season averages. Against WSU, we went from 82 in the first game to 61 the second. With Oregon, we went from 80 in the first game to 66 in the second. I think all these teams have figured out a formula for messing up Stanford's "beautiful basketball." Dawn Staley and JR Payne and Jeff Walz have each said as much on more than one occasion. Not only are they taking away the transition offense, there are fewer and fewer back door cuts as they adjust to our offense and learn how to defend it.
What Brink said in the presser was revealing--that she is scouted to go right and so she has been working on her left handed shots. But she is also doubled.
Not having Lexie out there probably made the WSU defense a little easier. It is not that Jump is easy to defend--but Jump is less versatile an attacker and can be defended with a more average defender than Lexie can. Add to that the fact that with Wilson and Lacie we are putting two players on the floor that are not perceived by the opponent as strong offensive threats and we have an offense that can be defended one on one, with a defender peeling off to double Brink from time to time.
Brink I thought was not aggressive enough on several occasions when she got the ball on the left elbow and had a single defender to beat to drive to the basket. I was surprised that she just seemed to refuse to drive, but wound up passing. Whether this is because it would have meant going to her left or something else I don't know.
In short, my worry is that our offense loses effectiveness as the season progresses and other coaches and teams become more practiced in how to stop it, and see more film from teams that have been successful on defense against us. Our offense overwhelms many teams the first time we play them, but the second time seems to always be a slog. I worry about playing some of these teams a third time in the Pac 12 tournament or South Carolina a second time in the NCAAs. Repeated matchups do not seem to favor us.
All good points, but on the other hand, we've won every repeat matchup we've played, implying that even when the odds are not in our favor, we find a way to win—the mark of a great team.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - WBB fan - 02-25-2022
Something else, occurred to me during this game, hadn't really focused on before. Cam has a 3 point shot (more so last year) and she's made a few this year. But several times last night she was open enough to shoot and didn't, instead passed the ball after hesitating. Had it been Hannah with the ball and that much open space, she would have shot right away. I think what's happening is that Cam feels a need for more time to get set to shoot a 3 and if a defender closes in, she's not going to shoot. Both Hannah and JVG, also Anna and to some extent Lexie/Lacie get the 3 pt shot off much faster than Cam is comfortable with.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - PVTree - 02-25-2022
Something I'd like to see Stanford improve upon is the last possession of a quarter. I saw that we ran the clock down to around 7 seconds before making our move.
That left us with little time to run our offense and Haley ended up needing to take an off-balance three pointer (may have been after time expired). I'd like us to start running out play with around 10-12 second to play. I think this was what Cam and Lacie were arguing about as they left the court.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - treetop11 - 02-25-2022
As usual, I find Chimera's comments spot on and agree. WSU has a lineup of beefy, chunky players who play physical and bump and body up a lot. Credit to them in how tight on D thye played our players giving little room for passes and movements. Between their physical play and D pressure, it messed up our O especially with Lexie out and Tara wanting to expand the rotation in view of the upcoming tournaments. Frankly, I think it was great that we played a team like WSU and their style of play. It's something we need to see and adapt to because we don't know what we will run into in the tourney.
I've noticed that besides Tara and coaches obviously being able to adapt to different things we run into, our players do a good job too. But the best thing is that this team has such a great variety of talented players that it makes it tougher for opponents to throw stuff at us that works for a full game. We can go big or small or in between. We can can go with length or bulk, quickness or slow down, transition or half court, and almost everyone plays exceptional defense. This is a strong team and Anna's emergence as a stabilizing and effective PG has solved our main early concern. No other team vcan match us in the post, and with Haley and Lexie available to slash, hit mid range or finish at the basket with 3 point snipers available we are very tough to defend. If Haley could consistently hit from 3, the other teams might as well concede the game.
The one vulnerabiity that we have all seen is when teams like WSU or Colorado to name a couple play us ugly and disrupt our flow. But remember we still won those games - not as easily as we would like, but a W is a W. Regardless, we'll figure it out if need be going forward on better ways to attack and paly better when team stry ot play us ugly.
BTW, the officiating last night was poor. Bugs me that Brink was called for a couple of non-existent fouls whereas with about 4 minutes left in the game, she was shoved to the floor when we were in transition and no call was made. And I couldn't believe that the refs called O fouls on a few of our screens. It's not that they weren't fouls - they were - but rather that 55 for WSU was fouling on almost every screen she set. She was constantly moving, sticking our her hip, banging, etc. Her screens looked more like football blocking.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - ceece - 02-25-2022
(02-25-2022, 12:49 PM)treetop11 Wrote: BTW, the officiating last night was poor. Bugs me that Brink was called for a couple of non-existent fouls whereas with about 4 minutes left in the game, she was shoved to the floor when we were in transition and no call was made. And I couldn't believe that the refs called O fouls on a few of our screens. It's not that they weren't fouls - they were - but rather that 55 for WSU was fouling on almost every screen she set. She was constantly moving, sticking our her hip, banging, etc. Her screens looked more like football blocking.
Agree with you about the illegal screens. Both WSU's bigs would bump and shove on screens multiple times per possession, nothing was called. But after they got their second fouls for other physical plays, they suddenly remembered how to set legal screens. Haley's offensive foul in the second half was nothing worse than what 55 or 14 did on every play in the first half, but that was the one foul they decided to call. It's the inconsistency that drives me nuts.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - TheWildJacko - 02-25-2022
(02-25-2022, 12:07 PM)WBB fan Wrote: Something else, occurred to me during this game, hadn't really focused on before. Cam has a 3 point shot (more so last year) and she's made a few this year. But several times last night she was open enough to shoot and didn't, instead passed the ball after hesitating. Had it been Hannah with the ball and that much open space, she would have shot right away. I think what's happening is that Cam feels a need for more time to get set to shoot a 3 and if a defender closes in, she's not going to shoot. Both Hannah and JVG, also Anna and to some extent Lexie/Lacie get the 3 pt shot off much faster than Cam is comfortable with.
True, but also Cam took and made a 3 last night.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - WBB fan - 02-25-2022
(02-25-2022, 02:22 PM)TheWildJacko Wrote:(02-25-2022, 12:07 PM)WBB fan Wrote: Something else, occurred to me during this game, hadn't really focused on before. Cam has a 3 point shot (more so last year) and she's made a few this year. But several times last night she was open enough to shoot and didn't, instead passed the ball after hesitating. Had it been Hannah with the ball and that much open space, she would have shot right away. I think what's happening is that Cam feels a need for more time to get set to shoot a 3 and if a defender closes in, she's not going to shoot. Both Hannah and JVG, also Anna and to some extent Lexie/Lacie get the 3 pt shot off much faster than Cam is comfortable with.
True, but also Cam took and made a 3 last night.
Yes, she did, and it was this fact that made me take note of the later opportunities that she hesitated on and then passed the ball.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - 81alum - 02-25-2022
(02-25-2022, 01:23 PM)ceece Wrote:I did not like the way the game was called, and let's face it, our offense works better when a game is tightly called than when anything goes. But we did adapt.(02-25-2022, 12:49 PM)treetop11 Wrote: BTW, the officiating last night was poor. Bugs me that Brink was called for a couple of non-existent fouls whereas with about 4 minutes left in the game, she was shoved to the floor when we were in transition and no call was made. And I couldn't believe that the refs called O fouls on a few of our screens. It's not that they weren't fouls - they were - but rather that 55 for WSU was fouling on almost every screen she set. She was constantly moving, sticking our her hip, banging, etc. Her screens looked more like football blocking.
Agree with you about the illegal screens. Both WSU's bigs would bump and shove on screens multiple times per possession, nothing was called. But after they got their second fouls for other physical plays, they suddenly remembered how to set legal screens. Haley's offensive foul in the second half was nothing worse than what 55 or 14 did on every play in the first half, but that was the one foul they decided to call. It's the inconsistency that drives me nuts.
I did not see (and have not reviewed) all of Brink's fouls, but I did see one that was, in my opinion, completely wrong. On the other hand there were two times when I saw her hack someone and it was not called. Just sheer referee incompetence with both phantom calls and hacking non-calls. But it helped our defense out as much as it helped WSU's.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - TheWildJacko - 02-25-2022
(02-25-2022, 02:27 PM)WBB fan Wrote:(02-25-2022, 02:22 PM)TheWildJacko Wrote:(02-25-2022, 12:07 PM)WBB fan Wrote: Something else, occurred to me during this game, hadn't really focused on before. Cam has a 3 point shot (more so last year) and she's made a few this year. But several times last night she was open enough to shoot and didn't, instead passed the ball after hesitating. Had it been Hannah with the ball and that much open space, she would have shot right away. I think what's happening is that Cam feels a need for more time to get set to shoot a 3 and if a defender closes in, she's not going to shoot. Both Hannah and JVG, also Anna and to some extent Lexie/Lacie get the 3 pt shot off much faster than Cam is comfortable with.
True, but also Cam took and made a 3 last night.
Yes, she did, and it was this fact that made me take note of the later opportunities that she hesitated on and then passed the ball.
Got it. To me that could signal both good court awareness, and also good awareness of her own capabilities—she knows when she’s most likely to hit the shot (she only took the one shot from outside).
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - CompSci87 - 02-25-2022
One thing that made me roll my eyes was when Jana got switched onto #15 at some point, and #15 just bulldozed Jana wherever she felt like going. No call.
RE: WBB: Stanford 61 -- Washington State 54 - TheWildJacko - 02-26-2022
Maybe Brink is reading the boards—she just camped out for a 3 and hit it for our 1st points against Washington.
Baez87 - Baez87 - 02-27-2022
As usual, I enjoyed reading the comments and insights on the Board. It’s great to have a forum in which to discuss the game, especially in an era in which the Pre-Game Talks have been suspended. So, thank you all for sharing, and sharing so respectfully with others. Your analysis enhances the game experience.
My only additional comment on the WSU game is an observation that I made after the game. When our women came to mid court to celebrate at the conclusion of the game, they were joined by the WSU players. The two groups exchanged genuine congratulatory handshakes, hugs, and smiles. Even Murekatete and Brink, who minutes earlier were locked in a fierce battle, patted each other on the back and shared broad smiles.
This exchange was far more demonstrative than the pre-Covid handshake lines. I have no idea why this happened — perhaps some had played together on all-star teams before, maybe a common bond was felt because Tara had given a heartfelt pre-game tribute to former WSU coach June Daugherty, or perhaps it was just a spontaneous act of mutual respect by two bands of warriors. Whatever the reason, it was a very touching show of sportsmanship, one that I had not seen at Maples before.