WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - Printable Version
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RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - JohnR34231 - 12-05-2024
Wasn't really expecting a win but it is tough to lose in this manner.
Oh well, we gave a good account of ourselves (at least until the waning seconds of regulation).
RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - old spanish trail - 12-05-2024
I imagine all of us had the same concern re the late game inbound play. I'm also sure Kate will fix it. But...it really was a foul.
It's always seemed to me that we don't pass it in to a player with very strong hands. Actually, watching it again, Harriel was free for a couple seconds and Demetre didn't pass it soon enuf.
RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - jonnyss - 12-05-2024
there were at least 3 held balls called incorrectly in the waning minutes:
brooke got her hand on the ball only, but was called for a foul
lsu twice got hands on forearms only, not on the ball at all, yet was given a jump ball.
also one of lsu's late drives was a monster travel 3 to 4 steps as the announcers called but the refs did not.
brooke was injured and was not the right person to inbound the ball late. i wish we had shay in the game. she could easily have gotten free to receive a pass. no need for post players when all you need to do is inbound the ball and take a foul.
RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - stanford22 - 12-05-2024
(12-05-2024, 09:41 PM)old spanish trail Wrote: I imagine all of us had the same concern re the late game inbound play. I'm also sure Kate will fix it. But...it really was a foul.
It's always seemed to me that we don't pass it in to a player with very strong hands. Actually, watching it again, Harriel was free for a couple seconds and Demetre didn't pass it soon enuf.
Clardy was open, Bosgana looked open too. Brooke tried to force it to Harriel. Harriel got fouled too. I don’t understand why we did not put some pressure on the ball when LSU had no more timeout. We were still leading by 5 at that time and we gave LSU all the time in the world to get the ball up the court and to Gilbert to hit the 3. We had this game won. Poor execution at the end.
RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - magnus - 12-05-2024
(12-05-2024, 09:51 PM)jonnyss Wrote: also one of lsu's late drives was a monster travel 3 to 4 steps as the announcers called but the refs did not.
And she got a continuation on that that the NBA would have envied (ok, ok. Maybe not envy but at the very least would have fit right in)
RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - scorecard - 12-06-2024
(12-05-2024, 09:12 PM)PVTree Wrote: I didn't know that it was a lane violation to fake going into the lane during a FT.
I've never seen that called before either. Is that the rule? I understand that you can't flinch as a defender to distract the shooter, but this doesn't make sense that you would get called for distracting your own teammate.
The male ref who made that call seemed to make a lot of questionable calls all night, including the continuation for LSU at the end of the game, as well as missing the obvious bump on Harriel on the crucial inbounds play.
And holy cow, why didn't ANY of the refs have the courage to T up Mulkey for all her sideline histrionics?
RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - 81alum - 12-06-2024
A few more observations.
1) I failed to notice that we played a 2-3 zone last night, specifically designed to force LSU to settle for three point shots and take away their inside game. It worked. LSU had only 22 points in the paint, we had 42. Unfortunately, LSU made 40% of their threes. I don't remember ever seeing us play zone for more than a couple of possessions at a time, so this was something new.
2) I do wonder what happened to Tess Heal. Probably Kate saw something about the match ups that was not working--perhaps Clardy was the better defender in the zone?
3) Audio press conference here:
https://storage.googleapis.com/stanford-prod/2024/12/06/7IspC95nfwZrrBJwYxvLAao0cEQlis4k9RIGbXqP.m4a
Kate sounds like many of us: not pleased with the outcome but very proud of the team and its improvement. Brought Agara to the presser: "She balled out."
"We were focused on creating a lot of congestion in the paint. Sometimes it worked better than others."
As for the Mikayla Williams scoring, Kate indicated that "sometimes you have to pick your poison" and clearly she was the poison we picked in order to shut down the inside game. By focusing elsewhere we let her get into a rhythm and her jumper became "pure."
RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - AndyCardinal03 - 12-06-2024
Whew, what a game! I agree with those saying that this was a good experience for this team and while it would've been really nice to come away with a win -- especially up 5 with 40 seconds to go -- it never felt to me like we were going to pull it off. This team doesn't have the pedigree - from the players to the new head coach - that gave me confidence we could beat a team of LSU's caliber on their home floor in the final minutes. Hopefully this game will go a long way toward helping the team find that confidence and that closing ability as the season goes along.
Game-Specific Thoughts:
- Nunu! What a force she was, playing against one of the better post players in the country in Morrow, albeit one who his similarly mid-sized, let's say. Nunu had the full complement of skills on display and didn't back down at any point. When we needed something to happen on offense, everything went through her (and Brooke), and she was reliable and tough. I didn't think we were going to have a player of this caliber on the team this year and it's exciting to see her already able to have a game like this so early in her Stanford career. She gave us 95% of what Kiki would have given us in this game, maybe?
- Brooke also played her best game in a Cardinal uniform. The announcers mentioned at one point that she's barely started for Stanford until this year, but she has played in a lot of big moments and it showed in this game. She's taking the tough shots at the end of the shot clock and pump faking her way into good offensive outcomes on many possessions. I think the biggest reason the game went to OT is that she had to hobble off the court for maybe 3 out of the last 5 minutes with what seemed to be cramping. She's also been maybe our best defensive players this year so far; I've been really impressed.
Late-game stuff:
- Yes, Harriel get fouled, but yes, I agree with the poster who said you should always expect the refs to swallow the whistle there, especially on the road. You have to be strong with the ball. Clardy was open, on the far side, but I wouldn't have wanted her shooting the FTs.
- I pulled up the NCAA rulebook this morning and my read of it says that they got that lane violation call on Nunu wrong. The rulebook says (rule 8.f): "No opponent (player or bench personnel) shall disconcert (e.g., taunt, bait, gesture or delay) the free-thrower." Nunu clearly wasn't in the lane, so they had to have called her for baiting, but you can't "bait" your own teammate. That was a point taken off the board in a crucial moment.
Big Picture Stuff:
- Depth: Our only other real contributors in this game were Harriel, Bosgana & Clardy. Harriel hit some big 3's throughout and generally played well under pressure from LSU's excellent guards. It was a good game for her. Bosgana made her first 3 of the game and then missed her last 7. She continues to run super hot & cold, as she has throughout her career. I thought she was also frequently on the wrong end of guarding Williams, but I'm not sure we have anyone on the roster who could do better on a player like that (Ogden would be the one, but she's been frustratingly absent in many of these games). And Clardy proved to be a steady ball handler against pressure in the 2nd half and was also our best perimeter defender. Heal was quickly played off the floor in this game - too fast & physical for her, at least so far. Stephenson was constantly hot-potatoing the ball during her front court minutes, and no one else saw any time. So, we thought depth was going to be an issue for this team this year, and it looked like a real Achille's heel in this game (not that LSU had any depth either).
- Coaching: The game plan was really good in this game. We came out in the 1st Q and were the better-prepared, better-executing team. We packed the paint and dared them to beat us over the top and it was an effective strategy. It also kept our bigs out of foul trouble, which we really cannot afford. LSU's big run in the 2nd Q was based entirely off of ball pressure & turnovers and KP kept Clardy out there the rest of the game to try to address that. LSU had far superior talent and we continued to stay ahead of them in the 2nd half by running our offense. We even got 2 open looks on backdoor cuts in the final couple minutes that looked like they might clinch the game for us, but it just wasn't nearly enough.
- Guard Play: our guards are just not consistent with other good teams (and nowhere near the real title contenders). Harriel and Clardy are doing the best they can - Clardy's shot has regressed in a major way the last 3-4 games, btw - but they will be badly outmatched on paper against all of the quality opponents coming up on our schedule (ND, NCSt, Duke) and that's going to really cap the ceiling of this team in the end. Heal is struggling against quality opponents, Shay has shown flashes for a frosh but she & Clardy can't be out there together, imo, b/c the shooting would collapse, and even a healthy Lepolo, which it doesn't look like we're getting this year, is not the answer.
- Overall: They're still looking like a 7-10 seed on paper to me, depending on how the conference road games go (I could see a lot more close losses like this one). Good frontcourt. Good game planning. Capable of hanging with anyone when the 3-pointers fall, but not deep enough and not nearly skilled enough to outmatch the best of the best.
RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - 81alum - 12-06-2024
(12-06-2024, 07:04 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote: Whew, what a game! I agree with those saying that this was a good experience for this team and while it would've been really nice to come away with a win -- especially up 5 with 40 seconds to go -- it never felt to me like we were going to pull it off. This team doesn't have the pedigree - from the players to the new head coach - that gave me confidence we could beat a team of LSU's caliber on their home floor in the final minutes. Hopefully this game will go a long way toward helping the team find that confidence and that closing ability as the season goes along.Superb analysis, Andy. Thank you for that!
Game-Specific Thoughts:
...
RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - needle - 12-06-2024
Quote: I pulled up the NCAA rulebook this morning and my read of it says that they got that lane violation call on Nunu wrong. The rulebook says (rule 8.f): "No opponent (player or bench personnel) shall disconcert (e.g., taunt, bait, gesture or delay) the free-thrower." Nunu clearly wasn't in the lane, so they had to have called her for baiting, but you can't "bait" your own teammate. That was a point taken off the board in a crucial moment.
This was a very mysterious call that I don't remember seeing in any other game. I guess the other possibiity if that the ref somehow mistakenly "saw" Nunu actually step into the lane.
Thanks for taking the time to look it up.
RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - BobK - 12-06-2024
Andy please post more. Excellent summary.
I’m thrilled we played so well. It’s a great performance and points towards a fine season.
RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - AndyCardinal03 - 12-06-2024
(12-06-2024, 08:02 AM)BobK Wrote: Andy please post more. Excellent summary.
I’m thrilled we played so well. It’s a great performance and points towards a fine season.
Ha! I'll post more if you can find a way to get more of these games started before 10pm EST. This was probably the first game I've watched start-to-finish this year and it pushed me way past my bedtime. But I still went to sleep feeling encouraged by the team's performance. (And also despising Kim Mulkey as much as ever!)
RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - BobK - 12-06-2024
The Ohio State game 8:30. :). Soon the travel to the east
RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - Mudhead - 12-06-2024
(12-06-2024, 08:17 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:Hard for me to understand ”despising” Mulkey as a coach. She attracts great talent. Her players are often difficult to coach . They play very hard for her ; with enough discipline to win and with 100% effort. She manages the game very well; even without timeouts she controlled the game end. And of course she wins. What’s not to like?(12-06-2024, 08:02 AM)BobK Wrote: Andy please post more. Excellent summary.
I’m thrilled we played so well. It’s a great performance and points towards a fine season.
Ha! I'll post more if you can find a way to get more of these games started before 10pm EST. This was probably the first game I've watched start-to-finish this year and it pushed me way past my bedtime. But I still went to sleep feeling encouraged by the team's performance. (And also despising Kim Mulkey as much as ever!)
RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - GK3 - 12-06-2024
(12-06-2024, 07:04 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote: Whew, what a game! I agree with those saying that this was a good experience for this team and while it would've been really nice to come away with a win -- especially up 5 with 40 seconds to go -- it never felt to me like we were going to pull it off. This team doesn't have the pedigree - from the players to the new head coach - that gave me confidence we could beat a team of LSU's caliber on their home floor in the final minutes. Hopefully this game will go a long way toward helping the team find that confidence and that closing ability as the season goes along.
Game-Specific Thoughts:
- Nunu! What a force she was, playing against one of the better post players in the country in Morrow, albeit one who his similarly mid-sized, let's say. Nunu had the full complement of skills on display and didn't back down at any point. When we needed something to happen on offense, everything went through her (and Brooke), and she was reliable and tough. I didn't think we were going to have a player of this caliber on the team this year and it's exciting to see her already able to have a game like this so early in her Stanford career. She gave us 95% of what Kiki would have given us in this game, maybe?
- Brooke also played her best game in a Cardinal uniform. The announcers mentioned at one point that she's barely started for Stanford until this year, but she has played in a lot of big moments and it showed in this game. She's taking the tough shots at the end of the shot clock and pump faking her way into good offensive outcomes on many possessions. I think the biggest reason the game went to OT is that she had to hobble off the court for maybe 3 out of the last 5 minutes with what seemed to be cramping. She's also been maybe our best defensive players this year so far; I've been really impressed.
Late-game stuff:
- Yes, Harriel get fouled, but yes, I agree with the poster who said you should always expect the refs to swallow the whistle there, especially on the road. You have to be strong with the ball. Clardy was open, on the far side, but I wouldn't have wanted her shooting the FTs.
- I pulled up the NCAA rulebook this morning and my read of it says that they got that lane violation call on Nunu wrong. The rulebook says (rule 8.f): "No opponent (player or bench personnel) shall disconcert (e.g., taunt, bait, gesture or delay) the free-thrower." Nunu clearly wasn't in the lane, so they had to have called her for baiting, but you can't "bait" your own teammate. That was a point taken off the board in a crucial moment.
Big Picture Stuff:
- Depth: Our only other real contributors in this game were Harriel, Bosgana & Clardy. Harriel hit some big 3's throughout and generally played well under pressure from LSU's excellent guards. It was a good game for her. Bosgana made her first 3 of the game and then missed her last 7. She continues to run super hot & cold, as she has throughout her career. I thought she was also frequently on the wrong end of guarding Williams, but I'm not sure we have anyone on the roster who could do better on a player like that (Ogden would be the one, but she's been frustratingly absent in many of these games). And Clardy proved to be a steady ball handler against pressure in the 2nd half and was also our best perimeter defender. Heal was quickly played off the floor in this game - too fast & physical for her, at least so far. Stephenson was constantly hot-potatoing the ball during her front court minutes, and no one else saw any time. So, we thought depth was going to be an issue for this team this year, and it looked like a real Achille's heel in this game (not that LSU had any depth either).
- Coaching: The game plan was really good in this game. We came out in the 1st Q and were the better-prepared, better-executing team. We packed the paint and dared them to beat us over the top and it was an effective strategy. It also kept our bigs out of foul trouble, which we really cannot afford. LSU's big run in the 2nd Q was based entirely off of ball pressure & turnovers and KP kept Clardy out there the rest of the game to try to address that. LSU had far superior talent and we continued to stay ahead of them in the 2nd half by running our offense. We even got 2 open looks on backdoor cuts in the final couple minutes that looked like they might clinch the game for us, but it just wasn't nearly enough.
- Guard Play: our guards are just not consistent with other good teams (and nowhere near the real title contenders). Harriel and Clardy are doing the best they can - Clardy's shot has regressed in a major way the last 3-4 games, btw - but they will be badly outmatched on paper against all of the quality opponents coming up on our schedule (ND, NCSt, Duke) and that's going to really cap the ceiling of this team in the end. Heal is struggling against quality opponents, Shay has shown flashes for a frosh but she & Clardy can't be out there together, imo, b/c the shooting would collapse, and even a healthy Lepolo, which it doesn't look like we're getting this year, is not the answer.
- Overall: They're still looking like a 7-10 seed on paper to me, depending on how the conference road games go (I could see a lot more close losses like this one). Good frontcourt. Good game planning. Capable of hanging with anyone when the 3-pointers fall, but not deep enough and not nearly skilled enough to outmatch the best of the best.
Thanks for the nice write up. I couldn't watch the entire game, but I thought too many times our offense stagnated and we ended up forcing up some kind of shot as the clock ran down. There were times where player movement simply stopped and we would make a bad pass. LSU has a number of players with very good hands and we often gave them chances to steal the ball which they promptly did. I don't know what our final TO number was, but I do not think it was good.
RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - martyup - 12-06-2024
(12-06-2024, 11:16 AM)Mudhead Wrote: Hard for me to understand ”despising” Mulkey as a coach. . . . What’s not to like?
![[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc.tenor.com%2FJ1-yK1v3q...ipo=images]](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fc.tenor.com%2FJ1-yK1v3qYYAAAAC%2Fcentral-intelligence-kevin-hart.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=84002cee1ed3d712b2d56494ed3080dc493e4dd392def432de8baf5babe4841b&ipo=images)
RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - TonyLima - 12-06-2024
(12-06-2024, 09:39 AM)BobK Wrote: The Ohio State game 8:30. :). Soon the travel to the east
I feel seen.
RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - jonnyss - 12-06-2024
(12-06-2024, 07:56 AM)needle Wrote:Quote: I pulled up the NCAA rulebook this morning and my read of it says that they got that lane violation call on Nunu wrong. The rulebook says (rule 8.f): "No opponent (player or bench personnel) shall disconcert (e.g., taunt, bait, gesture or delay) the free-thrower." Nunu clearly wasn't in the lane, so they had to have called her for baiting, but you can't "bait" your own teammate. That was a point taken off the board in a crucial moment.
This was a very mysterious call that I don't remember seeing in any other game. I guess the other possibiity if that the ref somehow mistakenly "saw" Nunu actually step into the lane.
Thanks for taking the time to look it up.
looks like there are also lane violations for several types of "faking." i, too, have never seen this before, but i think maybe nunu did exactly what the rule disallows. not sure why nunu would do this with her own teammate at the line, but she was pretty dramatic about it.
https://ref60.com/2020/01/its-a-fake/#:~:text=Depending%20on%20which%20player%20“fakes,successful%2C%20the%20violation%20is%20ignored.
"a player in a marked lane space fakes by rocking forward, causing their opponent to enter the free-throw lane."
also cited here as 9.1.3 B
(12-06-2024, 11:16 AM)Mudhead Wrote:(12-06-2024, 08:17 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote:Hard for me to understand ”despising” Mulkey as a coach. She attracts great talent. Her players are often difficult to coach . They play very hard for her ; with enough discipline to win and with 100% effort. She manages the game very well; even without timeouts she controlled the game end. And of course she wins. What’s not to like?(12-06-2024, 08:02 AM)BobK Wrote: Andy please post more. Excellent summary.
I’m thrilled we played so well. It’s a great performance and points towards a fine season.
Ha! I'll post more if you can find a way to get more of these games started before 10pm EST. This was probably the first game I've watched start-to-finish this year and it pushed me way past my bedtime. But I still went to sleep feeling encouraged by the team's performance. (And also despising Kim Mulkey as much as ever!)
how about screaming at her players? how about screaming at the refs? imo and the opinion of the announcers, she should have gotten a technical for repeatedly (perhaps 10 times) demanding of the ref, "what did she say!?!?!" draymond would have been tossed for that. how about repeated walking on the court while shouting at her players, even after the ref warned her to stay on the sidelines? how about repeatedly moving laterally past the limits of the coaching box?
is there a connection between her aggressiveness towards the refs and all the calls that went lsu's way? likely so. can we admire that her tactics worked? sure, but imo it's also something not to like.
RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - M T - 12-06-2024
(12-06-2024, 07:04 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote: - I pulled up the NCAA rulebook this morning and my read of it says that they got that lane violation call on Nunu wrong. The rulebook says (rule 8.f): "No opponent (player or bench personnel) shall disconcert (e.g., taunt, bait, gesture or delay) the free-thrower." Nunu clearly wasn't in the lane, so they had to have called her for baiting, but you can't "bait" your own teammate. That was a point taken off the board in a crucial moment.
(jonnyss, it does not help to quote unknown rules or judgements. The NCAA WBB rule book and the NCAA WBB case book are readily available.)
In the NCAA Basketball "2023-24 and 2024-25 Women’s Rules Book"
Rule 8.5.1.b
"The free-thrower shall not purposely fake a try nor shall the free-thrower’s
teammates and opponents purposely fake a violation."
It was a correct call, under the assumption that her jerking was faking a violation. I would have worded the rule differently (because I don't think she faked a violation, whatever that means... maybe putting your foot above the lane? No, both feet must be on the floor.)
On a different FT attempt, there was a violation by a LSU player because a foot was out of her lane. Uncalled.
(12-06-2024, 07:04 AM)AndyCardinal03 Wrote: ...Stephenson ...Stevenson
I disagree with the thought that a close loss suggests more close losses. If you consider the refs fair but flawed, the game hung on how many calls favored one team or the other. For instance, the travel call on Stevenson was a bad call - that took 2 points off the board for Stanford. If we play a #5 team that closely, I think there's a good chance we'll be in at least the top 15 at the end of the season.
(I hadn't realized the distinction earlier but this is how I read the rules-- if you receive a pass with both feet on the floor, you can pivot on either, but if you end your dribble with both feet on the floor, you can lift one or both feet, but neither may touch the ground again while you have the ball. Maybe Tiffany Bird confused the two when she made the bad call on Stevenson, but she should know better.)
I have been a supporter of Lepolo, but after watching this game, my opinion has changed that Lepolo is too deliberate for this offense. She's smart and good with the ball. I'm not concerned about her shooting that much, but she will gum up and slow down the flow. But, I haven't seen her that much in this offense; maybe she can play at a faster pace.
RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - 81alum - 12-06-2024
(12-06-2024, 11:16 AM)Mudhead Wrote: Hard for me to understand ”despising” Mulkey as a coach. She attracts great talent. Her players are often difficult to coach . They play very hard for her ; with enough discipline to win and with 100% effort. She manages the game very well; even without timeouts she controlled the game end. And of course she wins. What’s not to like?What you say is true, which is why she is an effective coach. I think those of us who despise her, including myself, do so not because of her basketball prowess but because of the way she treated Brittany Griner. If you are not familiar with the story, here is a starting point:
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/kim-mulkey-lgbtq-brittney-griner-controversy/mv4el5ugzawqvnpwv03v2mv7