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Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - Printable Version

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Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - Mick - 05-20-2015

(05-20-2015, 03:21 AM)CornFed link Wrote:Absolutely true that Russell had a much better set of players around him.  But your fixation on offensive stats diminishes the excellence of Russell's performance against Chamberlain one-on-one.  In no way do I wish to denigrate Wilt's legendary dominance.  It is just that Russell consistently mitigated his impact and allowed the superior talent of the Celtics to prevail.  I am not finding blocks or steals numbers on basketball-reference.com, but I think it would be statistics like those that strengthened Russell's case to be MVP.  He gave up three inches and very considerable bulk to Chamberlain, yet kept him contained whenever they met.  In the game you mention, Wilt was held to less than two-thirds of his average point production and was well under his average in rebounds.


And ultimately, how much value can one be said to have on a team that goes nowhere.  I think Russell was a deserving MVP, although I agree with you that it is shocking that Wilt did not have more.


To our respective points, this article points out that while shot blocking did not become a stat until the year after Chamberlain retired it was likely that Chamberlain blocked more shots than the three-inches-shorter Russell, whereas Russell would pick his spots and block shots later in a game that he would not block earlier in the game.  Sneaking up on the opponent, so to speak.  And whereas Wilt would block the ball into the stands, Russell would block the ball to a teammate.  To my eearlier point about coaching, Van Breda Kolff complained to Wilt that he was wasting blocked shots whereas Russell would block shots to his teammates and Wilt shot back "Russell's teammates are COACHED to retrieve Russell's blocked shots."


Look, I think Russell was a wonderful, incredible player.  And he's a local, my father in law played pickup basketball against him years ago.  But I looked at that Celtics lineup and I recognized every single name, and coaching genius Red Auerbach was his coach.  I just think that if I were starting a team today and all other things being equal, I'd pick Wilt first. 

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - CornFed - 05-20-2015

I do agree with that final sentence, Mick.  Wilt was a marvelous athlete, not just a brobdingnagian human being.  I imagine many of you see him play volleyball.  He was quick and balanced.  Truly a legendary player.  Russell was the kind of player who deserved all the recognition he got and more so, due to his intense competitive play and his own remarkable athleticism.


To Hulk's point:  I agree.  I would estimate that Wilt had at least 20,000 times more fun.  :P

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - Hulk01 - 05-20-2015

That's a stunning piece of information, Garvin.  The basis for the claims of Russel's superiority all suggested that he was among the greatest defenders of all-time.  But unless the NBA didn't start naming All Defense teams until the last few years of Russel's career, the fact he made that team only once suggests he wasn't among the greatest defenders in his decade.

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - Papa John - 05-20-2015

Per Wikipedia, the NBA all-defensive team first appeared in the 1968-69 season. Bill Russell retired in 1969, Chamberlain in 1973.

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - Roberton3 - 05-20-2015

(05-20-2015, 09:22 AM)Papa John link Wrote:Per Wikipedia, the NBA all-defensive team first appeared in the 1968-69 season. Bill Russell retired in 1969, Chamberlain in 1973.

So, to make things more explicit: the all-defensive team only existed for the last year of Russell's career, and he was named to the first team that year.  It existed for five years of Chamberlain's career, and he was named to the team in two of those five years.  The one year both could have made the all-defensive team, Russell was first team and Chamberlain didn't make it.

This was all before my time, but everything I've heard from older fans suggests that Chamberlain was one of the greatest offensive players of all time, while Russell was one of the greatest defensive players of all time, and that it's hard to say which was more valuable overall.

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - CornFed - 05-20-2015

This discussion, once again, highlights why I love the Cardboard so much.  Several things have been added that I had not known, the tone is constructive and there is a collaborative element to the sequence rather than a confrontational one.  Of course, it's a little easier when we are discussing the relative merits of two iconic figures in NBA history.

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - Hulk01 - 05-20-2015

Screw you, Cornfed.  What a ridiculous comment.  :) :)

To me, the most interesting and last word on Russell - Mick - 05-20-2015

He coached for three years after Aurbach retired.  In those three years, he won two NBA championships and lost in the Eastern files (his rookie coach year).  Purty darned good.  Heinsohn coached for nine full seasons after Russell and he won two NBA championships total.

And the last word...NBA basketball-reference, a statistics site, lists a proprietary statistic called "Win Share," which corresponds to the number of wins that the team theoretically has as a result of a specific player versus an average player at that position.  In his career, Russell's rating was typically between 11.3 and 17.3.  Chamberlain's average his first five years were 17, 19, 23, 21 and 25.  It dropped to 7.5 in 1964-65 when the Warriors won just 17 games.  Wilt only played 38 games, and newcomer Nate Thurmond was starting to take over.

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - Papa John - 05-20-2015

The most interesting basketball-related thing about Chamberlain, IMO, is that he started his professional basketball career with the Harlem Globetrotters, since he left Kansas after his junior year and, at that time, the NBA wouldn't take players who had not completed college.

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - CowboyIndian - 05-20-2015

Here's the second-most interesting thing about Wilt. :)



Back in the day, the NBA used to do anything to get folks to come to the arena, including doubleheaders and using high school games as a prelim...so at least the parents would buy tickets. In 1964, we played Manhattan Prep at the old Madison Square Garden before a Knicks-Warriors game. Sitting right behind our bench was Wilt. Every time-out, I'd look back to see him studying the floor, or the ceiling or his watch. I have never seen a human quite so bored.

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - CornFed - 05-20-2015

(05-20-2015, 11:04 AM)Hulk01 link Wrote:Screw you, Cornfed.  What a ridiculous comment.  :) :)

Or there is the more conventional approach.  ::)

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - Hulk01 - 05-20-2015

I hope it was clear that my tongue was in my cheek.  :)

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - BigEasyCard - 05-20-2015

(05-20-2015, 04:27 PM)Hulk01 link Wrote:I hope it was clear that my tongue was in my cheek.  :)

I thought it was.  Laughed out loud!

And Cornfed's comment about what makes this board special really echoed my own sentiments, but better expressed than I could manage.

Geaux Cardinal!

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - CornFed - 05-20-2015

(05-20-2015, 04:27 PM)Hulk01 link Wrote:I hope it was clear that my tongue was in my cheek.  :)


"Well, if it wasn't meant sarcastically then it was the kind of blinkered, Philistine, pig-ignorance I've come to expect from you non-creative garbage . You sit there on your loathsome spotty behinds picking blackheads, never giving a tinker's cuss for the struggling artist  .  .  .you excrement!  You whining, hypocritical toadies with your Tony Jacklin golf clubs and your bleeding Masonic handshakes  .  .  .  .  . [size=1em] You wouldn't let me join would you!"[/size]
[size=1em]
[/size]

[size=1em]
[/size]
[size=1em]Just funnin' with y'all.  I just really like that passage.[/size]

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - yvonne - 05-20-2015

I'm not sure whether this reminds me of the French knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, or the abuse portion of the Argument Sketch.

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - CornFed - 05-20-2015

(05-20-2015, 07:00 PM)Yvonne link Wrote:I'm not sure whether this reminds me of the French knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, or the abuse portion of the Argument Sketch.

Spiny Norman knows, I'm sure.  It is from the Architect sketch.  He proposes a design for a block of flats that is, in fact, an abattoir, the design for which is declined.  It is as follows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RicaXxiU1WM

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - Spiny_Norman - 05-21-2015

(05-20-2015, 07:07 PM)CornFed link Wrote:[quote author=Yvonne link=topic=12138.msg118748#msg118748 date=1432173601]
I'm not sure whether this reminds me of the French knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, or the abuse portion of the Argument Sketch.

Spiny Norman knows, I'm sure.  It is from the Architect sketch.  He proposes a design for a block of flats that is, in fact, an abattoir, the design for which is declined.  It is as follows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RicaXxiU1WM
[/quote]

Love that sketch which so brilliantly displays Cleese's talent.  He goes from sales mode to raving loony in the blink of an eye.

Yvonne was remembering the insults from the abuse part of the Argument sketch.
Quote:Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?
Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...
Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED EVIL PAN OF DROPPINGS!
Man: What?
A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT!  YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE!  YOU VACUOUS STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!

CornFed - try these insults yourself on your golf ball the next time your 6 foot putt for par doesn't take the break that you read.  It will make you feel better.  At least, they work for me.

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - CornFed - 05-21-2015

I have a recording of this when I find myself in such situations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBHFJ2Jz6PQ

Re: Mens Golf at NCAA Regional - CornFed - 05-22-2015

Patrick Rodgers made the +1 cut today at the Crowne Plaza Invitational.  He made it on the number and he did it by shooting -2 on the final nine.  Very good outcome after last week's spectacular finish in second.  He won't need to move up that much on the weekend to make enough to get an exemption for next year's tour.  Go Patrick!