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Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-25-2016

(12-25-2016, 05:45 PM)oman link Wrote:It would be hard to rationalize if he was just quitting the game.  Since he is planning to play many years on Sundays, it's not hard to rationalize at all.

I agree.  He chose his personal interests ahead of those of the program/team/fans and the more I think about it the more frustrated I get about the decision and the more disappointed I get in him

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-25-2016

(12-25-2016, 05:45 PM)oman link Wrote:It would be hard to rationalize if he was just quitting the game.  Since he is planning to play many years on Sundays, it's not hard to rationalize at all.

I agree.  He chose his personal interests ahead of those of the program/team/fans and the more I think about it the more frustrated I get about the decision and the more disappointed I get in him

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - ThePassionOfTheChryst - 12-25-2016

(12-25-2016, 06:31 PM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=oman link=topic=16303.msg183635#msg183635 date=1482713106]
It would be hard to rationalize if he was just quitting the game.  Since he is planning to play many years on Sundays, it's not hard to rationalize at all.

I agree.  He chose his personal interests ahead of those of the program/team/fans and the more I think about it the more frustrated I get about the decision and the more disappointed I get in him
[/quote]

Will the program/team/fans help make up for his lost wages if he suffers a career ending injury in a low-tier bowl game?

I'm disappointed we won't get to see him again as well, but the irony in some of you calling him selfish is just too much. "What do you mean he won't jeopardize his career prospects just so I can watch him play for my team one more time? How selfish."

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - ThePassionOfTheChryst - 12-25-2016

(12-25-2016, 06:31 PM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=oman link=topic=16303.msg183635#msg183635 date=1482713106]
It would be hard to rationalize if he was just quitting the game.  Since he is planning to play many years on Sundays, it's not hard to rationalize at all.

I agree.  He chose his personal interests ahead of those of the program/team/fans and the more I think about it the more frustrated I get about the decision and the more disappointed I get in him
[/quote]

Will the program/team/fans help make up for his lost wages if he suffers a career ending injury in a low-tier bowl game?

I'm disappointed we won't get to see him again as well, but the irony in some of you calling him selfish is just too much. "What do you mean he won't jeopardize his career prospects just so I can watch him play for my team one more time? How selfish."

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 12-25-2016

(12-25-2016, 06:31 PM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=oman link=topic=16303.msg183635#msg183635 date=1482713106]
It would be hard to rationalize if he was just quitting the game.  Since he is planning to play many years on Sundays, it's not hard to rationalize at all.

I agree.  He chose his personal interests ahead of those of the program/team/fans and the more I think about it the more frustrated I get about the decision and the more disappointed I get in him
[/quote]
I think I understand your point of view. However, implicit in your point of view are 2 assumptions that I think can be questioned. The first assumption is that a player has an obligation of some kind to the fans, and the second assumption is that CMac's choice to not play damages the program and the team in some way.
My personal belief is that he owes the fans nothing. Any joy we get from watching him perform is his free gift to us, and he can stop doing it at any time he wishes, for any reason or no reason. He never signed any agreement with me that he would play in all bowl games. All we can ask of a player is that if he plays, he does his best. If he chooses not to play, it may be an issue to his teammates and/or the program with whom he has some agreements, but not to us fans. You may not agree.
As far as his non-participation damaging the program or his teammates, it is not at all clear to me that it does in any material way. If it were Toby Gerhart deciding not to play in the Sun Bowl in 2009, yes, that would have materially damaged the team. There really was no one else that could replace him. However, B. Love can do a very good job in that role. In fact, I am almost certain that there are players on the team, particularly younger ones, that are of the opinion that if CMac isn't going to play next year, it is better that he get out of the way now and let the new guys get ready. I am pretty sure that is how I would feel, especially if I were Mr. Love. So yes, I can see situations where having CMac would be better, but I can also see how it would be worse. I note that many times people on this board have felt that Shaw relied on CMac too much, to the detriment of the offense. Be that as it may, it will not be a problem in El Paso. On the whole, I can see the argument that him not playing could hurt the program and the team, but the expected value of the damage is slight. Therefore, I can't generate any moral outrage about his decision. It is better for him and not very damaging to his teammates and the program.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 12-25-2016

(12-25-2016, 06:31 PM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=oman link=topic=16303.msg183635#msg183635 date=1482713106]
It would be hard to rationalize if he was just quitting the game.  Since he is planning to play many years on Sundays, it's not hard to rationalize at all.

I agree.  He chose his personal interests ahead of those of the program/team/fans and the more I think about it the more frustrated I get about the decision and the more disappointed I get in him
[/quote]
I think I understand your point of view. However, implicit in your point of view are 2 assumptions that I think can be questioned. The first assumption is that a player has an obligation of some kind to the fans, and the second assumption is that CMac's choice to not play damages the program and the team in some way.
My personal belief is that he owes the fans nothing. Any joy we get from watching him perform is his free gift to us, and he can stop doing it at any time he wishes, for any reason or no reason. He never signed any agreement with me that he would play in all bowl games. All we can ask of a player is that if he plays, he does his best. If he chooses not to play, it may be an issue to his teammates and/or the program with whom he has some agreements, but not to us fans. You may not agree.
As far as his non-participation damaging the program or his teammates, it is not at all clear to me that it does in any material way. If it were Toby Gerhart deciding not to play in the Sun Bowl in 2009, yes, that would have materially damaged the team. There really was no one else that could replace him. However, B. Love can do a very good job in that role. In fact, I am almost certain that there are players on the team, particularly younger ones, that are of the opinion that if CMac isn't going to play next year, it is better that he get out of the way now and let the new guys get ready. I am pretty sure that is how I would feel, especially if I were Mr. Love. So yes, I can see situations where having CMac would be better, but I can also see how it would be worse. I note that many times people on this board have felt that Shaw relied on CMac too much, to the detriment of the offense. Be that as it may, it will not be a problem in El Paso. On the whole, I can see the argument that him not playing could hurt the program and the team, but the expected value of the damage is slight. Therefore, I can't generate any moral outrage about his decision. It is better for him and not very damaging to his teammates and the program.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - fishman - 12-25-2016

I have it on extremely good authority that team members think that his quitting is "bullshit".  I infer that they are publicly staying together so as not to create or inflame a distracting controversy.  And Coach Shaw's statement expresses more for what he didn't say that for what he did.  He isn't pleased either.

It isn't to us fans that he owes an allegiance, it's to his teammates.  They and the coaches have relied on his presence to create an offensive scheme, an individual game plan and individual plays.  And now at the 11th hour, in a game they hope to turn into a 10-3 season he backs out on his teammates.  Bad for his team and damaging for the Stanford brand of athletes who seldom leave early and certainly not during the course of their season.  The rationalization that it gives an opportunity to Love to get a headstart on the season is just a lame excuse for an inexcusable action.  That's definitely not why he's leaving.  It's ultimately about finances.

I think the idea that the Sun Bowl isn't worth his playing for is a specious argument at best.  After the loss to U of W, the team was still playing for the best bowl they could get into, so the games WERE meaningful to them.  (And many of us were speculating about just which bowl game that was).  Like it or not, the Sun Bowl is the best one they could get, so to say it is meaningless just devalues that game and all the others they had to win to get there.

It is 

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - fishman - 12-25-2016

I have it on extremely good authority that team members think that his quitting is "bullshit".  I infer that they are publicly staying together so as not to create or inflame a distracting controversy.  And Coach Shaw's statement expresses more for what he didn't say that for what he did.  He isn't pleased either.

It isn't to us fans that he owes an allegiance, it's to his teammates.  They and the coaches have relied on his presence to create an offensive scheme, an individual game plan and individual plays.  And now at the 11th hour, in a game they hope to turn into a 10-3 season he backs out on his teammates.  Bad for his team and damaging for the Stanford brand of athletes who seldom leave early and certainly not during the course of their season.  The rationalization that it gives an opportunity to Love to get a headstart on the season is just a lame excuse for an inexcusable action.  That's definitely not why he's leaving.  It's ultimately about finances.

I think the idea that the Sun Bowl isn't worth his playing for is a specious argument at best.  After the loss to U of W, the team was still playing for the best bowl they could get into, so the games WERE meaningful to them.  (And many of us were speculating about just which bowl game that was).  Like it or not, the Sun Bowl is the best one they could get, so to say it is meaningless just devalues that game and all the others they had to win to get there.

It is 

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - CornFed - 12-26-2016

Unbelievably, I sense that this thread is actually reviving and heating up again.  I don't want to discourage that.  As I said earlier, I truly enjoy the banter.  I am amazed at the pretzel-like contortions in logic we perform to rationalize our preferred reaction.  All we have with which to work (talk about pretzels  ::)) is a simple declarative statement that he's not playing in the Sun Bowl in order to better prepare for the NFL combine.  OK, we mourn for a bit or go through our five stages, whatever.  Then.  We're over it!  Right?  Or will we never be over it?  I'm pretty sure we will not be talking McCaff into changing his mind and playing.  And we have parsed everyone's words in every imaginable way.  I'm over it.

But Goose, I am 100% convinced that he is NOT selflessly stepping aside to give his peers more reps.  That is delusional.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - CornFed - 12-26-2016

Unbelievably, I sense that this thread is actually reviving and heating up again.  I don't want to discourage that.  As I said earlier, I truly enjoy the banter.  I am amazed at the pretzel-like contortions in logic we perform to rationalize our preferred reaction.  All we have with which to work (talk about pretzels  ::)) is a simple declarative statement that he's not playing in the Sun Bowl in order to better prepare for the NFL combine.  OK, we mourn for a bit or go through our five stages, whatever.  Then.  We're over it!  Right?  Or will we never be over it?  I'm pretty sure we will not be talking McCaff into changing his mind and playing.  And we have parsed everyone's words in every imaginable way.  I'm over it.

But Goose, I am 100% convinced that he is NOT selflessly stepping aside to give his peers more reps.  That is delusional.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Langdude - 12-26-2016

I personally have mixed feelings about all of this -- probably because it hit on so many facets of life: college, relationships, money, career, "success," loyalty, bodily injury... the list could go on.

But, in reading through what for me has been a very interesting thread, it seems that many who are disappointed in CM's choice are not so merely (or even mainly) because they are bummed not to see him play in the cardinal and white one last time. Rather, for many who are disappointed (certainly not all), it seems that they are disappointed in CM making what for them is a decision that uncharacteristically (for CM) disregards responsibility to his teammates, coaches, and the institution (which includes, in some way, fans, I suppose). On the other hand, others say that he has no such (or minimal) responsibility at this point; this more "transactional" perspective likely claims that CM has already fulfilled his end of the contract ... and then some. (I do wonder, and posted above, if CM has any sort of fiduciary responsibility to play given he is on scholarship. But he could always back out of that deal, so I am not suggesting it is beholding.)

Anyway, it's actually a complex situation that, as I mentioned, does reflect how one sees the purpose of college, sports, and lots of other things in life. Really interesting, and I thank all of you for your reflections and perspectives.

-m.

PS: Merry Christmas to all!

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Langdude - 12-26-2016

I personally have mixed feelings about all of this -- probably because it hit on so many facets of life: college, relationships, money, career, "success," loyalty, bodily injury... the list could go on.

But, in reading through what for me has been a very interesting thread, it seems that many who are disappointed in CM's choice are not so merely (or even mainly) because they are bummed not to see him play in the cardinal and white one last time. Rather, for many who are disappointed (certainly not all), it seems that they are disappointed in CM making what for them is a decision that uncharacteristically (for CM) disregards responsibility to his teammates, coaches, and the institution (which includes, in some way, fans, I suppose). On the other hand, others say that he has no such (or minimal) responsibility at this point; this more "transactional" perspective likely claims that CM has already fulfilled his end of the contract ... and then some. (I do wonder, and posted above, if CM has any sort of fiduciary responsibility to play given he is on scholarship. But he could always back out of that deal, so I am not suggesting it is beholding.)

Anyway, it's actually a complex situation that, as I mentioned, does reflect how one sees the purpose of college, sports, and lots of other things in life. Really interesting, and I thank all of you for your reflections and perspectives.

-m.

PS: Merry Christmas to all!

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - JohnR34231 - 12-26-2016

(12-26-2016, 12:41 AM)Langdude link Wrote:I personally have mixed feelings about all of this -- probably because it hit on so many facets of life: college, relationships, money, career, "success," loyalty, bodily injury... the list could go on.

But, in reading through what for me has been a very interesting thread, it seems that many who are disappointed in CM's choice are not so merely (or even mainly) because they are bummed not to see him play in the cardinal and white one last time. Rather, for many who are disappointed (certainly not all), it seems that they are disappointed in CM making what for them is a decision that uncharacteristically (for CM) disregards responsibility to his teammates, coaches, and the institution (which includes, in some way, fans, I suppose). On the other hand, others say that he has no such (or minimal) responsibility at this point; this more "transactional" perspective likely claims that CM has already fulfilled his end of the contract ... and then some. (I do wonder, and posted above, if CM has any sort of fiduciary responsibility to play given he is on scholarship. But he could always back out of that deal, so I am not suggesting it is beholding.)

Anyway, it's actually a complex situation that, as I mentioned, does reflect how one sees the purpose of college, sports, and lots of other things in life. Really interesting, and I thank all of you for your reflections and perspectives.

-m.

PS: Merry Christmas to all!

Yep, as we discuss it you can almost hear strains of "What's it all about, Alfie" playing in the background. :)

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - JohnR34231 - 12-26-2016

(12-26-2016, 12:41 AM)Langdude link Wrote:I personally have mixed feelings about all of this -- probably because it hit on so many facets of life: college, relationships, money, career, "success," loyalty, bodily injury... the list could go on.

But, in reading through what for me has been a very interesting thread, it seems that many who are disappointed in CM's choice are not so merely (or even mainly) because they are bummed not to see him play in the cardinal and white one last time. Rather, for many who are disappointed (certainly not all), it seems that they are disappointed in CM making what for them is a decision that uncharacteristically (for CM) disregards responsibility to his teammates, coaches, and the institution (which includes, in some way, fans, I suppose). On the other hand, others say that he has no such (or minimal) responsibility at this point; this more "transactional" perspective likely claims that CM has already fulfilled his end of the contract ... and then some. (I do wonder, and posted above, if CM has any sort of fiduciary responsibility to play given he is on scholarship. But he could always back out of that deal, so I am not suggesting it is beholding.)

Anyway, it's actually a complex situation that, as I mentioned, does reflect how one sees the purpose of college, sports, and lots of other things in life. Really interesting, and I thank all of you for your reflections and perspectives.

-m.

PS: Merry Christmas to all!

Yep, as we discuss it you can almost hear strains of "What's it all about, Alfie" playing in the background. :)

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-26-2016

(12-25-2016, 10:22 PM)Goose link Wrote:[quote author=winflop link=topic=16303.msg183637#msg183637 date=1482715869]
[quote author=oman link=topic=16303.msg183635#msg183635 date=1482713106]
It would be hard to rationalize if he was just quitting the game.  Since he is planning to play many years on Sundays, it's not hard to rationalize at all.

I agree.  He chose his personal interests ahead of those of the program/team/fans and the more I think about it the more frustrated I get about the decision and the more disappointed I get in him
[/quote]
I think I understand your point of view. However, implicit in your point of view are 2 assumptions that I think can be questioned. The first assumption is that a player has an obligation of some kind to the fans, and the second assumption is that CMac's choice to not play damages the program and the team in some way.
My personal belief is that he owes the fans nothing. Any joy we get from watching him perform is his free gift to us, and he can stop doing it at any time he wishes, for any reason or no reason. He never signed any agreement with me that he would play in all bowl games. All we can ask of a player is that if he plays, he does his best. If he chooses not to play, it may be an issue to his teammates and/or the program with whom he has some agreements, but not to us fans. You may not agree.
As far as his non-participation damaging the program or his teammates, it is not at all clear to me that it does in any material way. If it were Toby Gerhart deciding not to play in the Sun Bowl in 2009, yes, that would have materially damaged the team. There really was no one else that could replace him. However, B. Love can do a very good job in that role. In fact, I am almost certain that there are players on the team, particularly younger ones, that are of the opinion that if CMac isn't going to play next year, it is better that he get out of the way now and let the new guys get ready. I am pretty sure that is how I would feel, especially if I were Mr. Love. So yes, I can see situations where having CMac would be better, but I can also see how it would be worse. I note that many times people on this board have felt that Shaw relied on CMac too much, to the detriment of the offense. Be that as it may, it will not be a problem in El Paso. On the whole, I can see the argument that him not playing could hurt the program and the team, but the expected value of the damage is slight. Therefore, I can't generate any moral outrage about his decision. It is better for him and not very damaging to his teammates and the program.
[/quote]

I believe that, absent extenuating circumstances, a player has a responsibility to finish the season, and I think that bowl games are part of the season.  I think his first mistake was to declare for the draft before the game, even if he'd already made up his mind.  Just say "I'll announce my decision after the season's over."  In my mind that would have been the responsible thing to do.

I get that you and others disagree - so be it, let's agree to disagree.  But given the number of former players and fans who have come out and said that his decision bothers them, it's hard to say that the "damage is slight."  Also keep in mind that Shaw has not (to my knowledge) said he supports the decision.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-26-2016

(12-25-2016, 10:22 PM)Goose link Wrote:[quote author=winflop link=topic=16303.msg183637#msg183637 date=1482715869]
[quote author=oman link=topic=16303.msg183635#msg183635 date=1482713106]
It would be hard to rationalize if he was just quitting the game.  Since he is planning to play many years on Sundays, it's not hard to rationalize at all.

I agree.  He chose his personal interests ahead of those of the program/team/fans and the more I think about it the more frustrated I get about the decision and the more disappointed I get in him
[/quote]
I think I understand your point of view. However, implicit in your point of view are 2 assumptions that I think can be questioned. The first assumption is that a player has an obligation of some kind to the fans, and the second assumption is that CMac's choice to not play damages the program and the team in some way.
My personal belief is that he owes the fans nothing. Any joy we get from watching him perform is his free gift to us, and he can stop doing it at any time he wishes, for any reason or no reason. He never signed any agreement with me that he would play in all bowl games. All we can ask of a player is that if he plays, he does his best. If he chooses not to play, it may be an issue to his teammates and/or the program with whom he has some agreements, but not to us fans. You may not agree.
As far as his non-participation damaging the program or his teammates, it is not at all clear to me that it does in any material way. If it were Toby Gerhart deciding not to play in the Sun Bowl in 2009, yes, that would have materially damaged the team. There really was no one else that could replace him. However, B. Love can do a very good job in that role. In fact, I am almost certain that there are players on the team, particularly younger ones, that are of the opinion that if CMac isn't going to play next year, it is better that he get out of the way now and let the new guys get ready. I am pretty sure that is how I would feel, especially if I were Mr. Love. So yes, I can see situations where having CMac would be better, but I can also see how it would be worse. I note that many times people on this board have felt that Shaw relied on CMac too much, to the detriment of the offense. Be that as it may, it will not be a problem in El Paso. On the whole, I can see the argument that him not playing could hurt the program and the team, but the expected value of the damage is slight. Therefore, I can't generate any moral outrage about his decision. It is better for him and not very damaging to his teammates and the program.
[/quote]

I believe that, absent extenuating circumstances, a player has a responsibility to finish the season, and I think that bowl games are part of the season.  I think his first mistake was to declare for the draft before the game, even if he'd already made up his mind.  Just say "I'll announce my decision after the season's over."  In my mind that would have been the responsible thing to do.

I get that you and others disagree - so be it, let's agree to disagree.  But given the number of former players and fans who have come out and said that his decision bothers them, it's hard to say that the "damage is slight."  Also keep in mind that Shaw has not (to my knowledge) said he supports the decision.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - DC 86 - 12-26-2016

(12-26-2016, 12:07 AM)CornFed link Wrote:But Goose, I am 100% convinced that he is NOT selflessly stepping aside to give his peers more reps.  That is delusional.
I don't see Goose making this claim anywhere in his post; he merely stated that the damage of McCaffrey not playing was minimal. Other players getting reps is a byproduct of his decision but nowhere did Goose list this as a motive.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - DC 86 - 12-26-2016

(12-26-2016, 12:07 AM)CornFed link Wrote:But Goose, I am 100% convinced that he is NOT selflessly stepping aside to give his peers more reps.  That is delusional.
I don't see Goose making this claim anywhere in his post; he merely stated that the damage of McCaffrey not playing was minimal. Other players getting reps is a byproduct of his decision but nowhere did Goose list this as a motive.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - SeattleTree - 12-26-2016

(12-25-2016, 03:44 PM)Spiny_Norman link Wrote:In the 300+ messages in this thread, has anyone linked yet to the Sports Illustrated story on McCaffrey from last spring?  I re-read it on the airplane yesterday and several passages stood out including the one below. 

Quote: [McCaffrey's] tone changes, however, when it comes to concussions, about which he claims not to worry. "We know what we sign up for," he says, sitting outside Arbuckle. "I couldn't imagine not playing." He pauses. "I know it's a risk, but life's worth taking risks and doing what you love." 

It is hard to rationalize this person with the one who is sitting out Friday's game.  Maybe since then, football has changed from "something you love" to "my future career which will provide the income to allow me to do what I love."

http://www.si.com/college-football/2016/05/17/christian-mccaffrey-cant-be-summed-his-achievements

I think this is part of what bothers me about CMac's decision. It just doesn't fit with what I thought I knew of CMac. The CMac that was marketed to us for the last three years -including the CMac who announced he would forego his senior season -- would not have made this decision to skip the bowl game.

Jaylon Smith, whose injury in the Fiesta Bowl and subsequent drop in the draft has been cited by some as the cautionary tale supporting CMac's decision, says he would make the same decision to play in the Fiesta Bowl even knowing what he knows now. He said he only lost money and he'd never get another chance to suit up and play with his ND teammates. Now *that* sentiment fits with the CMac who has been marketed to us the last three years.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - SeattleTree - 12-26-2016

(12-25-2016, 03:44 PM)Spiny_Norman link Wrote:In the 300+ messages in this thread, has anyone linked yet to the Sports Illustrated story on McCaffrey from last spring?  I re-read it on the airplane yesterday and several passages stood out including the one below. 

Quote: [McCaffrey's] tone changes, however, when it comes to concussions, about which he claims not to worry. "We know what we sign up for," he says, sitting outside Arbuckle. "I couldn't imagine not playing." He pauses. "I know it's a risk, but life's worth taking risks and doing what you love." 

It is hard to rationalize this person with the one who is sitting out Friday's game.  Maybe since then, football has changed from "something you love" to "my future career which will provide the income to allow me to do what I love."

http://www.si.com/college-football/2016/05/17/christian-mccaffrey-cant-be-summed-his-achievements

I think this is part of what bothers me about CMac's decision. It just doesn't fit with what I thought I knew of CMac. The CMac that was marketed to us for the last three years -including the CMac who announced he would forego his senior season -- would not have made this decision to skip the bowl game.

Jaylon Smith, whose injury in the Fiesta Bowl and subsequent drop in the draft has been cited by some as the cautionary tale supporting CMac's decision, says he would make the same decision to play in the Fiesta Bowl even knowing what he knows now. He said he only lost money and he'd never get another chance to suit up and play with his ND teammates. Now *that* sentiment fits with the CMac who has been marketed to us the last three years.