CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!?

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Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Langdude - 12-28-2016

(12-27-2016, 08:07 PM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:Why can't people get over this?Â

(12-28-2016, 09:03 AM)VFRing98 link Wrote:When a fellow employee leaves a company for a better gig, do you all stomp your feet and hold hands and cast aspersions on that employee's character? Good grief.

Meta-reflection: Seems to me, again, that the extent of this thread shows that there are lots of life-type issues related to this situation that are triggering different feelings for people on the many different sides of it. The fact that those who are frustrated with the "haters" have not "moved on" from the thread itself is evidence of that; something triggers them, too. As long as it does not become mean-spirited, I don't see harm in people talking about this stuff; in fact, it's healthy and thoughtful. Nor do I see people expressing frustration at CM - because of their emotional investment in Stanford and CM - as somehow less reasonable than those who feel the need to express frustration with those people. I've appreciated the many thoughts which, I've found, engage issues that go beyond merely not playing in a football game.

I will pose this question again, if anyone knows, and this is just from a fiduciary perspective: Does CM have any fiduciary responsibility to play given he is on scholarship? Are scholarship players allowed to take themselves out of games? And, if he does have that sort of fiduciary responsibility, did he have to remove himself from scholarship? Or perhaps this is an exceptional case where he asked permission from his coach and it was (obviously) given? Just curious...

-m.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - DC 86 - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 12:28 PM)Langdude link Wrote:I will pose this question again, if anyone knows, and this is just fro a fiduciary perspective: Does CM have any fiduciary responsibility to play given he is on scholarship? Are scholarship players allowed to take themselves out of games? And, if he does have that sort of fiduciary responsibility, did he have to remove himself from scholarship? Or perhaps this is an exceptional case where he asked permission from his coach and it was (obviously) given? Just curious...

-m.

An athlete does not have a fiduciary responsibility, however an athlete voluntarily withdrawing from a team is grounds for termination of a scholarship.

Historically athletes that quit a team at Stanford have usually had their scholarships honored for the remainder of that academic year, although the university is not obligated to do so.

The question about an athlete removing himself/herself mid-game is tricky because the athlete can simply claim an injury, which is hard to disprove. I suppose in such a case where the athlete simply refuses to continue playing mid-game the university could consider that action as a de facto voluntary resignation from the team and terminate the scholarship.

In McCaffrey's case the scholarship termination language is a moot point, fall quarter is over and he isn't going to enroll for winter quarter.

Summary is that the university can terminate a scholarship for cause but there is no legal language in the grant-in-aid or precedent for a university to pursue damages from a student athlete who simply decides to withdraw from a team.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - jacketree - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 12:28 PM)Langdude link Wrote:I will pose this question again, if anyone knows, and this is just fro a fiduciary perspective: Does CM have any fiduciary responsibility to play given he is on scholarship? Are scholarship players allowed to take themselves out of games? And, if he does have that sort of fiduciary responsibility, did he have to remove himself from scholarship? Or perhaps this is an exceptional case where he asked permission from his coach and it was (obviously) given? Just curious...
-m.

Nobody needs to ask permission to quit. There would normally be repercussions but since the quarter is over, CM has left school and CM is no longer on scholarship, Stanford's leverage over him and his fiduciary responsibility are both zero. I am not aware of anything that would allow Stanford to go after scholarship reimbursement. Not that they would even consider it.

I'm sure CM and his family weighed "bad feelings" into the decision they made.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - fullmetal - 12-28-2016

The people who would have their feelings improved had the decision to leave not been made--those people's good feelings would have meant squat if CMac tore an ACL in the Sun Bowl.Â It was smart, somewhat selfish, but long-term good decision...and I honestly think Stanford needs to encourage smart, long-term decisions.Â It does sacrifice team spirit and personal bonds for some.Â

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - CornFed - 12-28-2016

As a fellow for whom I used to work liked to say when asked for permission to do something, "You can do anything you want on your last day at work."Â :o

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - JohnR34231 - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 01:31 PM)fullmetal link Wrote:The people who would have their feelings improved had the decision to leave not been made--those people's good feelings would have meant squat if CMac tore an ACL in the Sun Bowl.Â It was smart, somewhat selfish, but long-term good decision...and I honestly think Stanford needs to encourage smart, long-term decisions.Â It does sacrifice team spirit and personal bonds for some.

So is the takeaway from this that no player who expects to be a high draft choice should play in a bowl game (except perhaps the playoffs) due to possible injury?

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Farm93 - 12-28-2016

Not many threads get this many comments.

For me this idea of some form of debt or contractual obligation to serve Stanford and "fans" seems really bad.Â I keep having visions of all of those movies set in the 60s and 70s.Â "Boy, way to get that TD for us today." Followed by a handshake with $20 to strengthen that implied servitude.

When neighbors or friends say, "Your boys really killed us on Saturday"Â I inevitably sit there and wonder did my kids play against this person's family?Â Slowly processing the idea that "my" boys are the young men playing on a Stanford team playing against his favorite college team.Â So I realize others link themselves to these kids in ways I don't understand.

Still, athletes quit and retire across multiple sports all of the time at Stanford and other schools.Â You can find kids that leave/quit/retire before and during seasons for so many different reasons.Â Even USC's Browne left early just this year.Â He could have practiced and played in the Rose Bowl, but opted to jump out ASAP to get a jump on his next team's playbook.Â It happens.

And of course, at some schools the university actually kicks people off the team just to make room for the next crop of recruits.Â That happens all of the time too.Â NCAA doesn't think universities even owe the kids anything more than a one year scholarship.

In the end there are very few contractual obligations in the deal.Â It would be nice for CMAC to stay, but he is not staying and nothing requires him to stay and play.Â We know that to be true because he is not staying.Â He left.

I am hopeful the players are not nearly as stuck on this topic as this board has been because that would seem to be a path to a bad bowl outcome.Â Moving on...Next Man Up!

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - washingtonismoney - 12-28-2016

I haven't really felt compelled to weigh in before now because I haven't had anything really interesting to say until now. So my apologies if I'm repeating sentiments that have already been stated:

1. I think the McCaffrey debate ultimately comes down to the concept of "loyalty."
2. What is loyalty? To oversimplify, I'm sure, it's the assurance that if you have my back, I'll have yours.
3. It's stronger than that: it's the implication that I'll sacrifice to have your back. It's an obligation.
4. This can be clearly seen in the ultimate statement of loyalty in our culture: marriage. You know, for richer, for poorer, etc. To the dismay of cultural conservatives the commitment has been watered down since the sixties, as the loyalty isn't for life. But still it's for a pretty long time. You're committing future selves and future sacrifices for, perhaps, a decade or more, to mutual sacrifice. That's really something if you think about it.
4a. As should be obvious by now society doesn't really work without loyalty. Taxes are loyalty. Helping the elderly cross the street is loyalty. (What, do you think the little old lady or man is guaranteed to have your back down the line? Probably not. And it shouldn't matter.)
5. Yet we all know loyalty, while elastic, isn't rubber or gumby. It snaps. At a certain point your loyalty is so taken advantage of that it's overburdened. I suspect we've all had relationships that have demanded so much of us that it seems unfair to continue.
6. OK, here's the C-Mac part. I'm going to guess that virtually everyone who is fine with McCaffrey not going to the Sun Bowl also wants players to be paid; and virtually everyone who doesn't want players to be paid is disturbed by McCaffrey's decision.
7. In short, it's a debate as to *whether college football is a sport worthy of loyalty.* Are its terms fair to all participants?
8. This is why a lot of the debate that I've observed in the media focus on McCaffrey's Stanford teammates. Certainly if they feel McCaffrey's decision isn't a breach of their compact, that's very relevant information. The team is the foundation of, uh, team sports.
8a. But then again obviously it's not the only bond of loyalty. There's the coaches. (Though the typical point in this debate is that coaches are well-paid mercenaries: they're compensated well not to complain, and they skip around so freely that it's a bit hypocritical of them to care. On the other hand, this being Stanford is relevant: Shaw, while extremely well paid, could've made much much more money had that been his cardinal virtue. And I believe many of the other coaches have foregone more lucrative opportunities.)
8b. There's also the fans. To put it mildly Stanford fans are far from the most oppressed group, yet they've been asked to endure a few indignities for the, uh, team. (I mean this in the broadest sense of "enduring." So I include the Band, the softball situation, and so on.) College football fans generally have certainly had to put up with some bull over the years as well: ever-increasing ticket prices, and some desultory efforts to give them the best matchups in exchange. While it's not their bodies on the line, surely their disappointment doesn't count for zero.
9. Still I don't have a great conclusion here: how much loyalty does college football deserve, and how much should it change to earn the loyalty it desires?

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Farm93 - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 02:14 PM)JPRI link Wrote:So is the takeaway from this that no player who expects to be a high draft choice should play in a bowl game (except perhaps the playoffs) due to possible injury?

Most of these bowl games are exhibitions built on values from a bygone era.Â The best reasons for players to stay and play are built upon notions of team, obligation and/or commitment.

Most coaches talk about the value of extra practices (for the next season), creating some type of momentum going into the spring practices (for the next season) and for some recruiting (for future seasons).Â The benefits to a staff are almost always forward looking things for the program.

If the stigma of leaving the team prior to the exhibition bowl game is reduced or removed, this wave will grow and grow.

While ESPN may convince fans that these players really like their time bowling in Mobile or visiting the zoo in San Diego, I am sure most agents would prefer their future clients would get ready for combine if they knew skipping the bowl had minimal consequences.Â

I would expect though that in the future the departing players will cite dings and minor injuries, like Fournette, rather than just opting out for no particular reason, like CMAC, as that seems to have been well received by the football community.Â And really, what top athlete will not have some ailment at this point in the year?

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 11:30 AM)JPRI link Wrote:The extreme examples of players quitting were cited not because anyone thinks they are comparable to what CMac did, but as part of a question. Specifically, are there any circumstances where you would not support a player bailing on his team? It seems as though the answer for at least one poster is no, as long as they feel the player is making "a sound decision for his future". Perhaps the answer is that you really have to take it on a case by case basis, and there are no real standards.
Of course people can do anything they want, but the question was would you support them if they did.

For me, supporting a decision is an analog function, ranging from "I think that is a great choice" thru "That is not what I would have done, but I understand it" to "that is really irresponsible". The factors involved in setting the level of support include what effect the choice will have on the team (both "actual" and psychological), what effect the choice will have on the player, (none, could damage his reputation, could get hurt if he plays, etc.) and what his team expected and legitimately expects. It would clearly be irresponsible for CM to go through all the pre-game practices, be expected to play, and then the day before the game decide not to play. I couldn't "support" that in any sense, no matter what the reason (just about. Death in the family qualifies). I could understand a player quitting in the middle of the season if they just lost the desire to play football. This is not a totally selfish act in that if you don't have "it" any more, you probably won't play well. However, if your team is counting heavily on you in the next game, and you decide to quit, that would be very hard for me to support. But it still could be the right thing to do.Â So yes, it is subjective. It does matter a lot what the coach and other players expect. If they don't understand and support your actions, you must question whether you are being irresponsible. If your team says "we don't like it, but we understand you have to do it", that makes it much easier to do, and much easier for third parties like me to "support". However, this criteria is not absolute, in that coaches have been known to be unreasonable as well. It also matters what is possible. If a player really doesn't want to play, does the team want him out there with them? I expect not. If I was a junior on the current Stanford team, and CM said he wasn't returning for next year, I think I would feel as follows: "Fine, hope it all goes well for you. Now get out of the way while we get ready for next year when I WILL be here and you won't." I would PREFER he didn't play in the bowl. Others probably would not agree in detail, but I think we all would be grateful for what he had done and for the leadership he had provided, understand why he wasn't returning, and want to get ready to block/hand off/throw to B Love and C Scarlett. If I play defense, I don't care. My job is the same. However, if CM had decided to quit tomorrow, I wouldn't feel supportive at all. So it is a continuum.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Phogge - 12-28-2016

The decision has been made and we move on. There is no right or wrong, only opinions.

My reference is my last game. I wanted to win for myself and my guys, especially a couple whom I roomed with. I still see them 50 years later. I lost in extras when we were one game from a regional. Felt I had let down everyone.

Just win baby and nobody can say, "What if 5 played?" It will be forgotten. Tar the Heels!

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 03:32 PM)Phogge link Wrote:The decision has been made and we move on. There is no right or wrong, only opinions.

My reference is my last game. I wanted to win for myself and my guys, especially a couple whom I roomed with. I still see them 50 years later. I lost in extras when we were one game from a regional. Felt I had let down everyone.

Just win baby and nobody can say, "What if 5 played?" It will be forgotten. Tar the Heels!

Full ACK

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - fullmetal - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 03:32 PM)Phogge link Wrote:My reference is my last game. I wanted to win for myself and my guys, especially a couple whom I roomed with. I still see them 50 years later. I lost in extras when we were one game from a regional. Felt I had let down everyone.

My nightmares are filled with cringe-worthy, failed race decisions.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Redrum - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 02:36 PM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:6. OK, here's the C-Mac part. I'm going to guess that virtually everyone who is fine with McCaffrey not going to the Sun Bowl also wants players to be paid; and virtually everyone who doesn't want players to be paid is disturbed by McCaffrey's decision.
.

With respect, Washington...this is happy horsesh*t.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - fullmetal - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 02:36 PM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:6. OK, here's the C-Mac part. I'm going to guess that virtually everyone who is fine with McCaffrey not going to the Sun Bowl also wants players to be paid; and virtually everyone who doesn't want players to be paid is disturbed by McCaffrey's decision.

I'm fine with CMac sitting out, but I'm not fine with players being paid.Â That statement is too broad.Â I also need to consider the rest of the questions, but Redrum's highlight causes me to respectfully disagree.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Mick - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 09:03 AM)VFRing98 link Wrote:I'm fine whenever a first round talent makes a sound decision for his future.

When a fellow employee leaves a company for a better gig, do you all stomp your feet and hold hands and cast aspersions on that employee's character? Good grief.

No, but that's not an apt comparison.Â What you're describing is similar to the graduating seniors who graduate (or leave at the end of the season) and go on to the NFL.Â

What you're describing is more akin to what I experienced at a Big Five firm about 15 years ago.Â We had been working on a very large potential life sciences client based in the SF Bay Area.Â You've heard of them, trust me.Â The fee would have added about 4% annualized revenue to the office, and about 25% to our life sciences practice.Â The chairman of the firm, the head of the industry practice and his right hand, the head of the office, the head of the audit practice and 4-5 others were in the office at 8:30 on a Saturday morning preparing for the final orals presentation which took place two days later on Monday at midday.

The #2 partner in the life sciences practice was central to our efforts.Â His name and face were very prominent on the proposal, on handouts, on posterboards, on our web site; all of which we'd spent months preparing.Â He was going to be the ringleader and the key relationship partner.

At 8:20 a.m., he resigned with no notice to join our key competitor...who happened to be the key competitor for that specific prospective client.Â

That's how it feels to me.Â Like someone who left with a job unfinished and who didn't give a sxxt about his teammates.

Quote:The team may be pissed. Good. It's a valuable life lesson - things don't always go like you want and you better develop some self-reliance.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - DC 86 - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 04:24 PM)Mick link Wrote:The #2 partner in the life sciences practice was central to our efforts.Â His name and face were very prominent on the proposal, on handouts, on posterboards, on our web site; all of which we'd spent months preparing.Â He was going to be the ringleader and the key relationship partner.

At 8:20 a.m., he resigned with no notice to join our key competitor...who happened to be the key competitor for that specific prospective client.Â

That's how it feels to me.Â Like someone who left with a job unfinished and who didn't give a sxxt about his teammates.

You're certainly entitled to feel that way but the analogy isn't apt.

The inexcusable situation that you experienced is akin to McCaffrey quitting the team this Friday morning and somehow suiting up for North Carolina in the afternoon instead.

A more apt analogy would be your colleague resigning several weeks prior to the big presentation and going to work for a much bigger firm in another part of the country that competes for an entirely different group of clients.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - VFRing98 - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 04:24 PM)Mick link Wrote:[quote author=VFRing98 link=topic=16303.msg183755#msg183755 date=1482941016]
I'm fine whenever a first round talent makes a sound decision for his future.

When a fellow employee leaves a company for a better gig, do you all stomp your feet and hold hands and cast aspersions on that employee's character? Good grief.

Quote:The team may be pissed. Good. It's a valuable life lesson - things don't always go like you want and you better develop some self-reliance.

Your satisfaction at the team's likely anger seems a bit misplaced.Â Stanford students and alumni generally have developed self-reliance at an accelerated pace prior to matriculation, and this little incident would add next to nothing to their self-reliance skills.
[/quote]

As to your last point, it seems a bit arrogant (sorry - can't think of a better word) to assume that because a student goes to Stanford, their life skills are advanced. A privileged life isn't necessarily a tested one, and many, many students at Stanford have led a privileged life untainted by much in the way of real stress. Many haven't, to be sure - but I don't know how you can say that Stanford students have advanced life skills for which this incident would be redundant.

As to your longer story, I think you kind of proved my point? Also, as another poster points out, Christian didn't bail the day before...

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 12-28-2016

(12-28-2016, 04:44 PM)DC 86 link Wrote:[quote author=Mick link=topic=16303.msg183818#msg183818 date=1482967489]

The #2 partner in the life sciences practice was central to our efforts.Â His name and face were very prominent on the proposal, on handouts, on posterboards, on our web site; all of which we'd spent months preparing.Â He was going to be the ringleader and the key relationship partner.

At 8:20 a.m., he resigned with no notice to join our key competitor...who happened to be the key competitor for that specific prospective client.Â

That's how it feels to me.Â Like someone who left with a job unfinished and who didn't give a sxxt about his teammates.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Leftcoast - 12-28-2016

When I remember Christian McCaffrey I will remember his breathtaking Rose Bowl, the electricity that filled the stadium whenever he returned a kickoff, the record setting single game performances, his H award heroics .... and that he quit on the 2016 team prior to their bowl game.

Unless their is some undisclosed injury that unfortunate coda has been added to his deservedly acclaimed story.