CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Printable Version
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Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Mick - 12-28-2016
(12-28-2016, 04:44 PM)DC 86 link Wrote:[quote author=Mick link=topic=16303.msg183818#msg183818 date=1482967489]
The #2 partner in the life sciences practice was central to our efforts. His name and face were very prominent on the proposal, on handouts, on posterboards, on our web site; all of which we'd spent months preparing. He was going to be the ringleader and the key relationship partner.
At 8:20 a.m., he resigned with no notice to join our key competitor...who happened to be the key competitor for that specific prospective client.Â
That's how it feels to me. Like someone who left with a job unfinished and who didn't give a sxxt about his teammates.
You're certainly entitled to feel that way but the analogy isn't apt.
The inexcusable situation that you experienced is akin to McCaffrey quitting the team this Friday morning and somehow suiting up for North Carolina in the afternoon instead.
A more apt analogy would be your colleague resigning several weeks prior to the big presentation and going to work for a much bigger firm in another part of the country that competes for an entirely different group of clients.
[/quote]
I'll respectfully disagree. UNC was never a competitor of Stanford's for McCaffrey's services, and could never be a competitor for McCaffrey's services. The competitor I'm referring to is the NFL. McCaffrey quit, specifically and in his own words, to prepare for the NFL. So we lose his services, both next year and the remainder of this year, to the NFL.
And the deeper part of the story is not the identity of his ultimate employer. The deeper meaning is that he prepared with the team, was taught and raised (professionally speaking) by team members, with the expectation that he would remain a key part of the team, then quit near the eve of a final competition.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Mick - 12-28-2016
(12-28-2016, 05:03 PM)VFRing98 link Wrote:As to your last point, it seems a bit arrogant (sorry - can't think of a better word) to assume that because a student goes to Stanford, their life skills are advanced. A privileged life isn't necessarily a tested one, and many, many students at Stanford have led a privileged life untainted by much in the way of real stress. Many haven't, to be sure - but I don't know how you can say that Stanford students have advanced life skills for which this incident would be redundant.
You think so little of Stanford students that you feel they are privileged and untainted by real stress? That they've never had a key member of a group/task force/work team leave prior to its completion, and they need the little bitch-slap of a quitting key team member to add to their real world skill set? Have you ever met a real, live Stanford student?
Quote:As to your longer story, I think you kind of proved my point was incorrect.? Also, as another poster points out, Christian didn't bailed out the day shortly before...
Fixed it for you.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 12-28-2016
(12-28-2016, 08:26 PM)Mick link Wrote:I'll respectfully disagree. UNC was never a competitor of Stanford's for McCaffrey's services, and could never be a competitor for McCaffrey's services. The competitor I'm referring to is the NFL. McCaffrey quit, specifically and in his own words, to prepare for the NFL. So we lose his services, both next year and the remainder of this year, to the NFL.I think this really gets to the root of the issue. It isn't about players getting paid or not. It is about what can the team and coaches expect from each other (loyalty) based on their common social contract. I think it always has been true that "leaving your team in the lurch" was not acceptable. However, we all know of players who have quit football for personal or medical reasons. I think that "modern" players do not expect unconditional loyalty from their teammates. They know you may leave because you want to go on a mission, prepare for the MCATs, retire from football, have had "too many" concussions, etc. Fans also accept these choices, especially when they are made between seasons. While I think that "near the eve" of the competition is a bit of an exaggeration, I understand the point. I don't think the team feels they are "being left in the lurch" because I think they feel they have adequate replacements. I think they would feel lots different if they had nobody decent to play running back. So I think they don't feel CM is breaking the social contract, even though he is quitting to play pro ball.Â
And the deeper part of the story is not the identity of his ultimate employer. The deeper meaning is that he prepared with the team, was taught and raised (professionally speaking) by team members, with the expectation that he would remain a key part of the team, then quit near the eve of a final competition.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - CTcard - 12-28-2016
(12-28-2016, 09:03 AM)VFRing98 link Wrote:And if players started doing those things? I say it's great; college football is rotten to its core and needs to be blown up.
This is a fairly common, and I think rather facile, statement thrown about a lot these days.
At the least, I guess I want to ask which rotten aspect would be fixed by McCaffrey and others leaving their teams before the season is over?
[And not quite fair, but I might wonder why you are bothering to spend time on a fan board devoted to such a rotten to its core endeavour - as much of the rottenness is itself closely tied to excessive fan interest.]
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - VFRing98 - 12-28-2016
(12-28-2016, 08:40 PM)Mick link Wrote:[quote author=VFRing98 link=topic=16303.msg183821#msg183821 date=1482969787]
As to your last point, it seems a bit arrogant (sorry - can't think of a better word) to assume that because a student goes to Stanford, their life skills are advanced. A privileged life isn't necessarily a tested one, and many, many students at Stanford have led a privileged life untainted by much in the way of real stress. Many haven't, to be sure - but I don't know how you can say that Stanford students have advanced life skills for which this incident would be redundant.
You think so little of Stanford students that you feel they are privileged and untainted by real stress? That they've never had a key member of a group/task force/work team leave prior to its completion, and they need the little bitch-slap of a quitting key team member to add to their real world skill set? Have you ever met a real, live Stanford student?
Quote:As to your longer story, I think you kind of proved my point was incorrect.? Also, as another poster points out, Christian didn't bailed out the day shortly before...
Fixed it for you.
[/quote]
Clever, except I don't see how a story about a key member of a company leaving for another gig does anything except show that's how the real world works, which is what I was trying to say.
I've worked with several Stanford students and recent grads in an internship setting, and have interviewed others for more permanent positions, and to a person this kind of experience would have been valuable to them. It's not that I am belittling Stanford students; they have all been smart, thoughtful, often well-qualified, and unbloodied.
Heck, I've been in the workforce 20 years and am still learning things. Aren't you?
How's this: you are interviewing a member of this year's team for a job at your company several years from now. Are you more interested in what he has to say about how he dealt with the adversity of the star player leaving before the bowl game, or, in an alternate universe, about how they all rode Christian's coattails to a Sun Bowl win?
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Mick - 12-28-2016
(12-28-2016, 10:29 PM)VFRing98 link Wrote:Clever, except I don't see how a story about a key member of a company leaving for another gig does anything except show that's how the real world works, which is what I was trying to say.
Circular logic. That's the point I made in the first place.
Quote:I've worked with several Stanford students and recent grads in an internship setting, and have interviewed others for more permanent positions, and to a person this kind of experience would have been valuable to them. It's not that I am belittling Stanford students; they have all been smart, thoughtful, often well-qualified, and unbloodied.
Obviously, every recent grad, Stanford or otherwise, needs to have the baby fat of naivete burned off. Look at the 53% preponderance of 18-24 year olds who (Reason-Rupe survey) believe in socialism compared with the 25% of old farts like me who believe in socialism.
Quote:Heck, I've been in the workforce 20 years and am still learning things. Aren't you?
I've been in the workforce for 40 years. Yes, of course I still learn things. But I was referencing a specific lesson, the lesson that a key person quits before the job is done. You're just talking about learning in general. My point is that this lesson comes a lot earlier in life. The star of our 8th grade basketball team walked out before the playoffs in a dispute with the coach, or if we want to get a little maudlin, my old man walked out when I was seven. And my story isn't special or unique in the slightest, I doubt that CMAC's quitting is the first time any of his teammates experienced a crucial teammate quitting before the job was done.
Quote:How's this: you are interviewing a member of this year's team for a job at your company several years from now. Are you more interested in what he has to say about how he dealt with the adversity of the star player leaving before the bowl game, or, in an alternate universe, about how they all rode Christian's coattails to a Sun Bowl win?
I don't give two sxxts about how they dealt with the adversity of someone other than them leaving, because that's not real adversity. McCaffrey's departure doesn't affect the defense, the OL's blocking adjusts slightly for Love or Scarlett, pass blocking doesn't change much. The QB will have something to say about it, but that's one guy. If I'm interviewing a Stanford football player, that's a peripheral issue. My questions would focus on how they contributed, how they learned, how they failed and improved, how they got along with other team members, or if we really wanted to talk about adversity, how they dealt with a terrible position coach or a professor who had it out for them.
Or how's this: you're 16 or 17 and filling out a Stanford application or an SCU application or the application of virtually every four year college on the face of the planet, and the question is some variant of "How have you dealt with adversity..."Â Every single answer of every single admitted Stanford student will reflect a heckuva lot more adversity than "I worked on a group project and our smartest member quit a week before it was due."Â And every single answer will be some variant of "I sucked it up" coupled with "here's the amazing thing(s) I did to combat that adversity."
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - 82 Card - 12-29-2016
(12-28-2016, 10:29 PM)VFRing98 link Wrote:Heck, I've been in the workforce 20 years and am still learning things. Aren't you?
At 35 years here. What I've learned in the last 10 is that I'm not so sure about some of the things I learned in the fist 20.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - JohnR34231 - 12-29-2016
(12-28-2016, 09:27 PM)CTcard link Wrote:[quote author=VFRing98 link=topic=16303.msg183755#msg183755 date=1482941016]
And if players started doing those things? I say it's great; college football is rotten to its core and needs to be blown up.
This is a fairly common, and I think rather facile, statement thrown about a lot these days.
At the least, I guess I want to ask which rotten aspect would be fixed by McCaffrey and others leaving their teams before the season is over?
[And not quite fair, but I might wonder why you are bothering to spend time on a fan board devoted to such a rotten to its core endeavour - as much of the rottenness is itself closely tied to excessive fan interest.]
[/quote]
Yeah, if college football were "blown up", it seems to me that people like CMac would not have the opportunity to make these decisions which people are applauding as great for their future.
Also, if you consider college football a "rotten" activity, people leaving early is presumably good because the fewer people participating in such an endeavor the better.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-29-2016
The one parallel about leaving a job is that when you leave a job you want to go out with the best possible impression because like it or not the last impression often weighs more heavily on the people you leave than the ones you created previously. McCaffrey did the exact opposite.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Farm93 - 12-29-2016
(12-28-2016, 04:11 PM)fullmetal link Wrote:[quote author=washingtonismoney link=topic=16303.msg183793#msg183793 date=1482960988]6. OK, here's the C-Mac part. I'm going to guess that virtually everyone who is fine with McCaffrey not going to the Sun Bowl also wants players to be paid; and virtually everyone who doesn't want players to be paid is disturbed by McCaffrey's decision.
I'm fine with CMac sitting out, but I'm not fine with players being paid. That statement is too broad. I also need to consider the rest of the questions, but Redrum's highlight causes me to respectfully disagree.
[/quote]
Quite funny as I too am in this category.
I don't believe the student-athletes should be paid. As he is a student playing as an amateur I am OK with literally any action here related to DAPER, as long as it complied with NCAA rules.
FWIW - This is not a football thing for me. If Ledecky announced she was leaving the women's swimming team that would be awful as I really covet those NCAA team titles. And yet, if she announced that she was leaving the team today so she could sign a big endorsement deal with P&G to push products I would be OK with that too.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Mick - 12-29-2016
(12-29-2016, 03:00 AM)82 Card link Wrote:[quote author=VFRing98 link=topic=16303.msg183848#msg183848 date=1482989359]
Heck, I've been in the workforce 20 years and am still learning things. Aren't you?
At 35 years here. What I've learned in the last 10 is that I'm not so sure about some of the things I learned in the fist 20.
[/quote]
Man, I heard that. Some of it's perspective, some of it's "What were they/was I thinking?"
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Phogge - 12-29-2016
(12-29-2016, 03:00 AM)82 Card link Wrote:[quote author=VFRing98 link=topic=16303.msg183848#msg183848 date=1482989359]
Heck, I've been in the workforce 20 years and am still learning things. Aren't you?
At 35 years here. What I've learned in the last 10 is that I'm not so sure about some of the things I learned in the fist 20.
[/quote]
LOL! Absolutely.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - TreesAndBirds - 12-29-2016
(12-29-2016, 05:51 AM)winflop link Wrote:The one parallel about leaving a job is that when you leave a job you want to go out with the best possible impression because like it or not the last impression often weighs more heavily on the people you leave than the ones you created previously. McCaffrey did the exact opposite.
Yes. I think that CM will become rich and successful, but will rue how he handled his departure from Stanford. If his only goal was to prepare for the NFL, he did that, but if his reputation with teammates, Stanford fans, the public are part of the equation, and over time those things become more important, I think he will look back on this decision with regret. But we all have things we wish we had done differently, and it doesnt vitiate all the good he did, it just tarnishes it a bit. I just hope this was his decision, and not that of his "advisors".
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - fishman - 12-29-2016
For those who think it's fine for him to leave right before the Sun Bowl, a few questions:
What if an outstanding player who has no designs on the NFL, but intends to go to med school and make a career as a physician needs to study for a critical exam in a key biochem class? Can he drop out before a bowl game?
What if that exam is not at the end of the season, but before the midseason USC game? Can he come back after the exam if he wants to?
What about an engineering student/starting football player who has a chance for an internship at Google beginning mid fall quarter? Can he quit the team midseason and come back next year?
All decisions pitting loyalty and significant contributions to team against personal self interest.Â
What if dropping out - for an end-of-season game, mid-season game or remainder of a season - becomes more common and increasingly accepted?Â
Can or should the university condition a scholarship offer on a commitment to complete a season without interruption? (As I understand it, scholarships are technically year-to-year, but renewed annually).
What, if any, reasons justify a player leaving a season early or skipping a game? Is just any personal best interest sufficient?
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - VFRing98 - 12-29-2016
(12-28-2016, 11:32 PM)Mick link Wrote:[quote author=VFRing98 link=topic=16303.msg183848#msg183848 date=1482989359]
Clever, except I don't see how a story about a key member of a company leaving for another gig does anything except show that's how the real world works, which is what I was trying to say.
Circular logic. That's the point I made in the first place.
Quote:I've worked with several Stanford students and recent grads in an internship setting, and have interviewed others for more permanent positions, and to a person this kind of experience would have been valuable to them. It's not that I am belittling Stanford students; they have all been smart, thoughtful, often well-qualified, and unbloodied.
Obviously, every recent grad, Stanford or otherwise, needs to have the baby fat of naivete burned off. Look at the 53% preponderance of 18-24 year olds who (Reason-Rupe survey) believe in socialism compared with the 25% of old farts like me who believe in socialism.
Quote:Heck, I've been in the workforce 20 years and am still learning things. Aren't you?
I've been in the workforce for 40 years. Yes, of course I still learn things. But I was referencing a specific lesson, the lesson that a key person quits before the job is done. You're just talking about learning in general. My point is that this lesson comes a lot earlier in life. The star of our 8th grade basketball team walked out before the playoffs in a dispute with the coach, or if we want to get a little maudlin, my old man walked out when I was seven. And my story isn't special or unique in the slightest, I doubt that CMAC's quitting is the first time any of his teammates experienced a crucial teammate quitting before the job was done.
Quote:How's this: you are interviewing a member of this year's team for a job at your company several years from now. Are you more interested in what he has to say about how he dealt with the adversity of the star player leaving before the bowl game, or, in an alternate universe, about how they all rode Christian's coattails to a Sun Bowl win?
I don't give two sxxts about how they dealt with the adversity of someone other than them leaving, because that's not real adversity. McCaffrey's departure doesn't affect the defense, the OL's blocking adjusts slightly for Love or Scarlett, pass blocking doesn't change much. The QB will have something to say about it, but that's one guy. If I'm interviewing a Stanford football player, that's a peripheral issue. My questions would focus on how they contributed, how they learned, how they failed and improved, how they got along with other team members, or if we really wanted to talk about adversity, how they dealt with a terrible position coach or a professor who had it out for them.
Or how's this: you're 16 or 17 and filling out a Stanford application or an SCU application or the application of virtually every four year college on the face of the planet, and the question is some variant of "How have you dealt with adversity..."Â Every single answer of every single admitted Stanford student will reflect a heckuva lot more adversity than "I worked on a group project and our smartest member quit a week before it was due."Â And every single answer will be some variant of "I sucked it up" coupled with "here's the amazing thing(s) I did to combat that adversity."
[/quote]
Baloney, grade A baloney. So thick there's really nowhere to start. Nice pretzel logic, though.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - VFRing98 - 12-29-2016
(12-29-2016, 11:35 AM)fishman link Wrote:For those who think it's fine for him to leave right before the Sun Bowl, a few questions:
What if an outstanding player who has no designs on the NFL, but intends to go to med school and make a career as a physician needs to study for a critical exam in a key biochem class? Can he drop out before a bowl game?
What if that exam is not at the end of the season, but before the midseason Under Stanford Control (again) game? Can he come back after the exam if he wants to?
What about an engineering student/starting football player who has a chance for an internship at Google beginning mid fall quarter? Can he quit the team midseason and come back next year?
All decisions pitting loyalty and significant contributions to team against personal self interest.Â
What if dropping out - for an end-of-season game, mid-season game or remainder of a season - becomes more common and increasingly accepted?Â
Can or should the university condition a scholarship offer on a commitment to complete a season without interruption? (As I understand it, scholarships are technically year-to-year, but renewed annually).
What, if any, reasons justify a player leaving a season early or skipping a game? Is just any personal best interest sufficient?
Answers, for me:
1. Yes
2 and 3: up to coach/players
4. I'm ok with it
5. Not unless all coaches are subject to the same conditions, and even then, I'd probably lean no. It should be an at-will arrangement
6. Any personal reason is good enough. For crying out loud, this is football, not the military.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 12-29-2016
(12-29-2016, 11:35 AM)fishman link Wrote:For those who think it's fine for him to leave right before the Sun Bowl, a few questions:
What if an outstanding player who has no designs on the NFL, but intends to go to med school and make a career as a physician needs to study for a critical exam in a key biochem class? Can he drop out before a bowl game?
What if that exam is not at the end of the season, but before the midseason Under Stanford Control (again) game? Can he come back after the exam if he wants to?
What about an engineering student/starting football player who has a chance for an internship at Google beginning mid fall quarter? Can he quit the team midseason and come back next year?
All decisions pitting loyalty and significant contributions to team against personal self interest.Â
What if dropping out - for an end-of-season game, mid-season game or remainder of a season - becomes more common and increasingly accepted?Â
Can or should the university condition a scholarship offer on a commitment to complete a season without interruption? (As I understand it, scholarships are technically year-to-year, but renewed annually).
What, if any, reasons justify a player leaving a season early or skipping a game? Is just any personal best interest sufficient?
My grossly overly simplistic answer is that just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - pefloresjr - 12-29-2016
I was out of the country when this story broke and it took me this long to get through it all. A lot of good points made but we are all left to speculate to a degree because of the very brief statements by McCaffrey and Shaw with no chance to ask questions. I am unhappy with McCaffrey's decision, but, based on his prior behavior and attitude (and mostly my wish to be less disappointed), I am simply assuming that he has some lingering injuries that are more serious than we know that he doesn't want to discuss. With that assumption, I can happily shift my focus back to rooting for the team to step up and win despite the absence of McCaffrey.Â
Cheers,
Pete F.Â
PS. I don't support paying college athletes other than a stipend for living expenses since they can't work during the season and shouldn't have to take a vow of poverty to play.Â
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - JJJ - 12-29-2016
I caught a couple of glimpses of #5 but understandably no highlights are in the hype video:
http://twitter.com/StanfordFball/status/814660444006690816
Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - 76lsjumb - 12-29-2016
(12-29-2016, 08:07 PM)JJJ link Wrote:I caught a couple of glimpses of #5 but understandably no highlights are in the hype video:
http://twitter.com/StanfordFball/status/814660444006690816
Kind of an alternate universe highlight video -- a lot of #17 and no #5... yeah, that's sure the way I remember this season... ???