Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Printable Version
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RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - teejers1 - 12-17-2020
(12-17-2020, 06:08 PM)Hulk01 Wrote: PS: Doesn't asinine mean completely asinine?
No, asinine and completely asinine are distinct.
Commenting on grammar and punctuation on a sports fan board is asinine.
A poster doing so when she has a history of regularly making the same grammatical error (for example on the use of "to" vs. "too" - or the use of "me" where "I" is correct - or "their" vs. "there") is completely asinine.
I may make asinine posts here, but I'll not correct grammar or punctuation of others . . . because that would be completely asinine.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - cardcrimson - 12-17-2020
An exquisite use of the ellipsis. Well done!
(12-17-2020, 07:11 PM)teejers1 Wrote:(12-17-2020, 06:08 PM)Hulk01 Wrote: PS: Doesn't asinine mean completely asinine?
No, asinine and completely asinine are distinct.
Commenting on grammar and punctuation on a sports fan board is asinine.
A poster doing so when she has a history of regularly making the same grammatical error (for example on the use of "to" vs. "too" - or the use of "me" where "I" is correct - or "their" vs. "there") is completely asinine.
I may make asinine posts here, but I'll not correct grammar or punctuation of others . . . because that would be completely asinine.
(12-16-2020, 10:12 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote: Who has been the better coach, mentor, role model, community member, and university representative this season — Shaw or Saban? It is not even close.
Because of the criteria to get in, this type of story just doesn't happen at Stanford. Actually a great story about a local Bay Area kid actually sticking around for a fourth year AND getting a degree.
Najee Harris:
https://247sports.com/Article/Homeless-Abused-Angry-Najee-Harris-unsteady-path-to-Alabama-50936595/
And Najee's getting a degree this fall:
https://247sports.com/college/alabama/Article/Alabama-Football-Eleven-football-players-among-30-Crimson-Tide-athletes-earning-degrees-Mac-Jones-Najee-Harris-Dylan-Moses-156620457/
Also interesting that both Mac Jones and Dylan Moses are earning masters degrees.
Snorlax, it might be closer than you want to believe . . . .
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - OutsiderFan - 12-17-2020
(12-17-2020, 06:39 PM)Skiddy Wrote: ...if Saban and Shaw were to swap seats and then to continue working under the counterpart's current circumstances and limitations, Saban would outperform Shaw.
No argument from me on this one.
lex24 - lex24 - 12-17-2020
(12-17-2020, 08:10 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(12-17-2020, 06:39 PM)Skiddy Wrote: ...if Saban and Shaw were to swap seats and then to continue working under the counterpart's current circumstances and limitations, Saban would outperform Shaw.
No argument from me on this one.
No way of fricking earth that Saban would put up with the restrictions and limitations of Stanford. So it’s a meaningless hypothetical.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - CTcard - 12-17-2020
(12-17-2020, 03:43 PM)BostonCard Wrote: We are 25th in offensive efficiency; 96th in defensive efficiency. We are 41st in offensive points per drive (2.6 ppd), we are 100th in defensive points per drive (2.81 ppd given up).
It's not just the numbers. For the first time since 2015 I am rather optimistic about the prospects for the offense.
The run game hasn't yet been great (only two good games) but the OL is showing signs of moving people, some competency with both gap and zone blocking, and there are two young backs who look competent.
The pass game finally looks like it is working towards some purpose. We're not just throwing back-shoulder/box-out lobs. There are full route trees, some downfield and some higher percentage routes, (some slants as somebody noted, but we're still not very good at that), and even some throws to backs getting them the ball moving in the right direction. Miraculously, the pass game didn't collapse when we lost two of our top three receivers - though the windows got awfully small.
The run pass mix is still pretty pass heavy, but getting better. Our plays are still too formation dependent, but not really down dependent. Personally, I think we're in the shotgun way too often, but maybe I'm just old fashioned that way.
The best thing is that most of the key contributors are pretty young. Even without the pandemic eligibility rules, I think the only real contributor who would have been using up eligibility is occasional starter Harrington. Mills game by game trajectory has been pretty good, with PER of 110, 140, 148, 166 - and those without the volume collapsing (though not as crazy as in the Colorado game).
Overall, the offense is far from being the almost unstoppable machine of 2015, but one can see a plan that looks like it could develop into something.
The defense ... that's a much bigger problem.
[Has anyone else seen a software glitch where an entire post disappears upon hitting the return key? That just happened to the first version of this post.]
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - BostonCard - 12-17-2020
If you say "outperform" you have to give the metric by which you are going to measure performance. I have a feeling you mean "better record on the football field", in which case I have a feeling that Saban (at Stanford) would outperform Shaw (at Stanford). I don't think that Saban (at Stanford) would consistently outperform Shaw (at Alabama), however, but it is possible.
If your metric is something else, like not having your players arrested, then I think Shaw (at Alabama) would outperform Saban (at Alabama). But likewise, I'm not sure that Shaw (at Alabama) would outperform Saban (at Stanford). That's not to denigrate Alabama, but the fact that Aiden Hector had his admission rescinded by the school tells you about the guardrails that Stanford would place on any coach.
BC
(12-17-2020, 08:38 PM)lex24 Wrote:(12-17-2020, 08:10 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(12-17-2020, 06:39 PM)Skiddy Wrote: ...if Saban and Shaw were to swap seats and then to continue working under the counterpart's current circumstances and limitations, Saban would outperform Shaw.
No argument from me on this one.
No way of fricking earth that Saban would put up with the restrictions and limitations of Stanford. So it’s a meaningless hypothetical.
Also, if Saban had managed to work magic at Stanford, he'd be gone for a better job within a couple years. In his first head coaching job, Nick Saban took a 6-5 Toledo team, went 9-2 to become mid-America co-champs, and bolted to be DC for the Cleveland Browns after just one season. In 1995, Saban took over a Michigan State team that hadn't had a winning season since 1990, went on to 4 bowl games (including an epic loss to Willingham in the Sun Bowl the next year), and resigned before the 1999 Citrus Bowl to become head coach of LSU. He was head coach at LSU for 4 years, including a national title in 2003, and then tried his hand coaching in the NFL (at the Dolphins). He spent 2 years as head coach of Miami, and left Miami to be the head coach of Alabama. He's had 5 national titles in 13 years at Alabama, which makes him one of the most successful coaches in college football history, but there is no way that Nick Saban lasts past a hypothetical 2012 Rose Bowl win as Stanford coach, had he taken over instead of Shaw in 2011.
BC
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Mick - 12-17-2020
The solution to the defense isn't difficult. All we need is the 2022 versions of Pat Donovan, Dave Wyman, John Lynch, Jeff Siemon, Benny Barnes, Pete Lazetich, Chase Thomas, Tank Williams, Ron George, Roger Stilwell, Duncan McColl, Blake Martinez, Coy Wire, Harrison Phillips, Solomon Thomas, Ed Reynolds and kevin Scott. That's all. Now hop to it.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - cardcrimson - 12-17-2020
(12-17-2020, 09:39 PM)BostonCard Wrote: From Lex: No way of fricking earth that Saban would put up with the restrictions and limitations of Stanford. So it’s a meaningless hypothetical.
From BC: there is no way that Nick Saban lasts past a hypothetical 2012 Rose Bowl win as Stanford coach, had he taken over instead of Shaw in 2011.
Who knows. There're rumors that Saban is ready to retire from Alabama. For a coach with his ability, can you think of a better retirement than as head coach at Stanford, amongst the palms on the Farm. Think about it. He'd hire great assistants and let them do the hard stuff, he'd occasionally complain about the restrictions of academics and admissions, and he'd be under no pressure from the administration to win. Average 8 and 4 or even 7 and 5, he'd be a hero
Except for the CA taxes, cost of living, growing crime rates, and the occasional earthquake and wildfire, it'd be a great situation for him.
(12-17-2020, 11:33 PM)Mick Wrote: The solution to the defense isn't difficult. All we need is the 2022 versions of Pat Donovan, Dave Wyman, John Lynch, Jeff Siemon, Benny Barnes, Pete Lazetich, Chase Thomas, Tank Williams, Ron George, Roger Stilwell, Duncan McColl, Blake Martinez, Coy Wire, Harrison Phillips, Solomon Thomas, Ed Reynolds and kevin Scott. That's all. Now hop to it.
Geez Mick, if we could put 17 on the field, we could stop anyone.
What, no love for Shane Skov or Paulson Adebo or even Richard Sherman?
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Mick - 12-18-2020
(12-17-2020, 11:51 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(12-17-2020, 09:39 PM)BostonCard Wrote: From Lex: No way of fricking earth that Saban would put up with the restrictions and limitations of Stanford. So it’s a meaningless hypothetical.
From BC: there is no way that Nick Saban lasts past a hypothetical 2012 Rose Bowl win as Stanford coach, had he taken over instead of Shaw in 2011.
Who knows. There're rumors that Saban is ready to retire from Alabama. For a coach with his ability, can you think of a better retirement than as head coach at Stanford, amongst the palms on the Farm. Think about it. He'd hire great assistants and let them do the hard stuff, he'd occasionally complain about the restrictions of academics and admissions, and he'd be under no pressure from the administration to win. Average 8 and 4 or even 7 and 5, he'd be a hero
Except for the CA taxes, cost of living, growing crime rates, and the occasional earthquake and wildfire, it'd be a great situation for him.
(12-17-2020, 11:33 PM)Mick Wrote: The solution to the defense isn't difficult. All we need is the 2022 versions of Pat Donovan, Dave Wyman, John Lynch, Jeff Siemon, Benny Barnes, Pete Lazetich, Chase Thomas, Tank Williams, Ron George, Roger Stilwell, Duncan McColl, Blake Martinez, Coy Wire, Harrison Phillips, Solomon Thomas, Ed Reynolds and kevin Scott. That's all. Now hop to it.
Geez Mick, if we could put 17 on the field, we could stop anyone.
What, no love for Shane Skov or Paulson Adebo or even Richard Sherman?
Sure, why not? And Paul Wiggin too...
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Phogge - 12-18-2020
Any list that doesn’t include Ed Cummings is suspect but good list Mick. Maybe Jack Chappel too.
And Lex, meaningless is often fun.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Maple Leaf - 12-18-2020
Don Parish and Pat Preston at LB's were a very excellent tandem. T Cook was an excellent CB as was Darren Gorden, both played in the NFL. Jack Schultz and Randy Potl at Strong Safety knew how to play the position, though not the fastest.
lex24 - lex24 - 12-18-2020
U
(12-17-2020, 11:51 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:(12-17-2020, 09:39 PM)BostonCard Wrote: From Lex: No way of fricking earth that Saban would put up with the restrictions and limitations of Stanford. So it’s a meaningless hypothetical.
From BC: there is no way that Nick Saban lasts past a hypothetical 2012 Rose Bowl win as Stanford coach, had he taken over instead of Shaw in 2011.
Who knows. There're rumors that Saban is ready to retire from Alabama. For a coach with his ability, can you think of a better retirement than as head coach at Stanford, amongst the palms on the Farm. Think about it. He'd hire great assistants and let them do the hard stuff, he'd occasionally complain about the restrictions of academics and admissions, and he'd be under no pressure from the administration to win. Average 8 and 4 or even 7 and 5, he'd be a hero
Except for the CA taxes, cost of living, growing crime rates, and the occasional earthquake and wildfire, it'd be a great situation for him.
(12-17-2020, 11:33 PM)Mick Wrote: The solution to the defense isn't difficult. All we need is the 2022 versions of Pat Donovan, Dave Wyman, John Lynch, Jeff Siemon, Benny Barnes, Pete Lazetich, Chase Thomas, Tank Williams, Ron George, Roger Stilwell, Duncan McColl, Blake Martinez, Coy Wire, Harrison Phillips, Solomon Thomas, Ed Reynolds and kevin Scott. That's all. Now hop to it.
Geez Mick, if we could put 17 on the field, we could stop anyone.
What, no love for Shane Skov or Paulson Adebo or even Richard Sherman?
Gotta Add Shayne Skov, Don Parish, Henry Anderson, Gardiner, Kailee Wong Darrien Gordon and Garin Veris.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - BostonCard - 12-18-2020
(12-17-2020, 11:51 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Who knows. There're rumors that Saban is ready to retire from Alabama. For a coach with his ability, can you think of a better retirement than as head coach at Stanford, amongst the palms on the Farm. Think about it. He'd hire great assistants and let them do the hard stuff, he'd occasionally complain about the restrictions of academics and admissions, and he'd be under no pressure from the administration to win. Average 8 and 4 or even 7 and 5, he'd be a hero
Except for the CA taxes, cost of living, growing crime rates, and the occasional earthquake and wildfire, it'd be a great situation for him.
Isn't that the Walsh II approach? Sadly, it didn't wind up working out that great.
BC
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - JohnR34231 - 12-18-2020
(12-18-2020, 11:31 AM)BostonCard Wrote:(12-17-2020, 11:51 PM)cardcrimson Wrote: Who knows. There're rumors that Saban is ready to retire from Alabama. For a coach with his ability, can you think of a better retirement than as head coach at Stanford, amongst the palms on the Farm. Think about it. He'd hire great assistants and let them do the hard stuff, he'd occasionally complain about the restrictions of academics and admissions, and he'd be under no pressure from the administration to win. Average 8 and 4 or even 7 and 5, he'd be a hero
Except for the CA taxes, cost of living, growing crime rates, and the occasional earthquake and wildfire, it'd be a great situation for him.
Isn't that the Walsh II approach? Sadly, it didn't wind up working out that great.
BC
That was kind of the Walsh II approach. The difference was rather than hiring great assistants he hired great ex-NFL types and assumed he could turn them into great coaches. That was what didn't work out so well.
Also Walsh was not willing to wait out the couple of losing years for his excellent recruiting classes to mature.
Finally, you aren't a hero by going 7-5 or 8-4 anymore, at least with many of the denizens of this board.
P.S. Given all the money Saban has made at Alabama I don't think he would have to be too concerned about the high taxes and cost of living in the Bay Area. Also, I don't believe the crime rate is very high in Los Altos Hills or Atherton, which is probably where he would end up living.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - gailtate - 12-18-2020
(12-16-2020, 09:25 AM)winflop Wrote:(12-15-2020, 08:59 PM)martyup Wrote: We're damn lucky to have him.
We've been damn lucky to have him. I'm not sure that is still the case.
Concur. Between the 2011 Fiesta Bowl and 2016, I was a vehement Shaw booster. From that point on, my ardor declined, along with recruiting and quality of play. I suspect that the next couple of seasons will reveal if he's a match for the task today.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Phogge - 12-18-2020
And add Joe Long, Gary Pettigrew, Larry Butler, Rich Keller.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Snorlax94 - 12-18-2020
(12-17-2020, 06:39 PM)Skiddy Wrote: You don't have to be convinced, and I don't mean to say this to convince you either; but here's where your take and mine differ: if Saban and Shaw were to swap seats and then to continue working under the counterpart's current circumstances and limitations, Saban would outperform Shaw.
No, I don't agree with this. I simply don't buy into all the Saban adulation.
Nick Saban reminds me of another coach who had a parallel path in life -- Gene Stallings. Gene Stallings was a player at Texas A&M, then a successful college coach, then a coach in the NFL. And he was a failure in the NFL. He had a losing record. The Cardinals did so poorly they got moved to Arizona. Afterwards, Gene Stallings returned to Alabama, where he led them to an undefeated and impressive national championship.
Gene Stallings was a very successful college coach at Alabama, but was he some kind of super-wizard of football coaching who could have enjoyed success at any team, under any circumstance, at any level? No. He was a great -- and the right -- coach at Alabama (oh, until their cheating cost Alabama a bunch of scholarships, ineligibility to play in bowl games, and forfeited wins...)
Nick Saban, people may know, also had unsuccessful tours in the NFL. He was a defensive coordinator for the Browns, where had a losing record, then later after head coaching success in college, he became the head coach for the Dolphins for two years, where he also had a losing record. When he left Miami, he admitted he had achieved some wisdom that he's better suited for certain places like being a college coach.
So no, Nick Saban is not some kind of super-coach who could inherit any circumstance, any kind of constraints, any kind of community, and succeed there.
The reality of being a coach in the Bay Area is that you live in an area where you have competition from so many championship professional teams and probably the most-envied technology in the world.
The reality of being a coach at Stanford (or Northwestern, and other schools) is that you can't just recruit a player based on what he does on the field. He *has* to qualify for the admissions level for an athlete, which is an incredibly high bar. I think very few coaches could deal with this and work with it instead of fighting it.
This season has demonstrated another unique constraint for being at Stanford. You have a conference that pushed back the start of the season, and two All Americans forgo the season, which you accept with grace and your best wishes. You live in a county that didn't permit your team to meet and practice, so you had to bus to a nearby high school in the next county to start practicing. Then that same county said no sports could continue, so after a road game, you have to stay on the road for 3 weeks. Living in hotels. No access to your world-class campus. They patched together high schools where they could practice, and had the final session before the Washington game in a nearby park. Have you seen that photo? It is almost comical. So for now their 4th week they are banished from their campus, living in hotels, scrambling to find places to practice.
How many coaches could have strung together those 3 weeks of road wins, starting with taking back The Axe? The team has had high school level facilities playing against teams with all their Power 5 Teams home resources the past 3 weeks. Do you assume Saban could have managed that? I don't know if any other coach could have accomplished this.
Of course, whenever I get excited about the team they go and get blown out, so now I've probably jinxed tomorrow. But for the last 3 games and preparing for UCLA, I really don't think many if any other coaches could have handled the challenges as well as Coach Shaw has, and I know of no other group of student athletes could have adapted and fought they way the Cardinal have.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - cardcrimson - 12-18-2020
![[Image: translucent---red-sunglasses-rainbowoptx...1601592723]](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0203/9710/products/translucent---red-sunglasses-rainbowoptx-27720551_430x430.jpg?v=1601592723)
(12-18-2020, 04:50 PM)Snorlax94 Wrote:(12-17-2020, 06:39 PM)Skiddy Wrote: You don't have to be convinced, and I don't mean to say this to convince you either; but here's where your take and mine differ: if Saban and Shaw were to swap seats and then to continue working under the counterpart's current circumstances and limitations, Saban would outperform Shaw.
No, I don't agree with this. I simply don't buy into all the Saban adulation.
Nick Saban reminds me of another coach who had a parallel path in life -- Gene Stallings. Gene Stallings was a player at Texas A&M, then a successful college coach, then a coach in the NFL. And he was a failure in the NFL. He had a losing record. The Cardinals did so poorly they got moved to Arizona. Afterwards, Gene Stallings returned to Alabama, where he led them to an undefeated and impressive national championship.
Gene Stallings was a very successful college coach at Alabama, but was he some kind of super-wizard of football coaching who could have enjoyed success at any team, under any circumstance, at any level? No. He was a great -- and the right -- coach at Alabama (oh, until their cheating cost Alabama a bunch of scholarships, ineligibility to play in bowl games, and forfeited wins...)
Nick Saban, people may know, also had unsuccessful tours in the NFL. He was a defensive coordinator for the Browns, where had a losing record, then later after head coaching success in college [YOU MEAN LIKE WINNING THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP AT LSU?], he became the head coach for the Dolphins for two years, where he also had a losing record. When he left Miami, he admitted he had achieved some wisdom that he's better suited for certain places like being a college coach.
So no, Nick Saban is not some kind of super-coach who could inherit any circumstance, any kind of constraints, any kind of community, and succeed there.
The reality of being a coach in the Bay Area is that you live in an area where you have competition from so many championship professional teams and probably the most-envied technology in the world.
The reality of being a coach at Stanford (or Northwestern, and other schools) is that you can't just recruit a player based on what he does on the field. He *has* to qualify for the admissions level for an athlete, which is an incredibly high bar. I think very few coaches could deal with this and work with it instead of fighting it.
This season has demonstrated another unique constraint for being at Stanford. You have a conference that pushed back the start of the season, and two All Americans forgo the season, which you accept with grace and your best wishes. You live in a county that didn't permit your team to meet and practice, so you had to bus to a nearby high school in the next county to start practicing. Then that same county said no sports could continue, so after a road game, you have to stay on the road for 3 weeks. Living in hotels. No access to your world-class campus. They patched together high schools where they could practice, and had the final session before the Washington game in a nearby park. Have you seen that photo? It is almost comical. So for now their 4th week they are banished from their campus, living in hotels, scrambling to find places to practice.
How many coaches could have strung together those 3 weeks of road wins, starting with taking back The Axe? The team has had high school level facilities playing against teams with all their Power 5 Teams home resources the past 3 weeks. Do you assume Saban could have managed that? I don't know if any other coach could have accomplished this.
Of course, whenever I get excited about the team they go and get blown out, so now I've probably jinxed tomorrow. But for the last 3 games and preparing for UCLA, I really don't think many if any other coaches could have handled the challenges as well as Coach Shaw has, and I know of no other group of student athletes could have adapted and fought they way the Cardinal have.
Fine, don't buy into the Saban adulation. Yes, he sucked at the Dolphins. Belichick sucked at the Browns. Carroll sucked at the Jets.
While I don't particularly care for the three, one has to respect what they've accomplished.
And for what it's worth, it appears others might disagree with your assessment of Saban. From wikipedia:
"With His Sixth National Title, Nick Saban Is The Greatest College Football Coach Ever". forbes.com.
"The debate is truly over: Why Nick Saban is the greatest coach of all time". CBSSports.com. Retrieved July 11, 2018.
"Analysis | Nick Saban is the top college football coach of all time". Washington Post. Retrieved July 11, 2018.
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - Hulk01 - 12-18-2020
It is not easy to suss out Saban's contribution to Alabama's dominance.
He obviously is a very good coach, but Alabama's unequaled recruiting classes and coaching budget, combined with its Mickey Mouse schedule. set it up for success.
Alabama's national recruiting class rankings since Saban's first season:
3, 3, 4, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 5, 1, 2
Final national rankings
6, 1, 10, 1, 1, 7, 4, 1, 2, 1, 2, 8, ?
Over the eleven recruiting classes from 2008 to 2018,
Alabama signed 209 four or five-star recruits.
LSU signed 153, Oklahoma 134, Clemson 111, and Oregon 104.
42 of Alabama's recruits were five stars--seven more than Oklahoma, Clemson and Oregon combined.
And, again, Alabama pays its assistants $8.84 million a year, against Michigan's $6.27 and Washington's $5.06.
How good a head coach is Saban? Very, I'd wager.
Best ever? Best one living?
RE: Shaw: Expectations and Evolution. - teejers1 - 12-18-2020
(12-18-2020, 06:18 PM)cardcrimson Wrote:
Seriously. Snorlax not only is drinking the Kool-Aid, he's got the pitcher clutched tightly in both hands!
What's the saying . . . Necessity is the mother of invention? I don't think you have to look too far afield (hint: SJSU) to see that other coaches can deal - and have dealt - with SCC's unique restrictions. And it helps that Cal, OSU, and UW are not all that.
I don't want to characterize the tasks completed by Shaw & Co. as de minimis; however, they're not insuperable barriers, either.
We'll see how UCLA goes. I agree with Lex that this may just be a tough opponent, match up wise, for Stanford. Think Stanford has to win the turnover battle by a couple to prevail. We'll see . . .