WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT

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RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - Griffins78 - 01-17-2021

I haven't seen the game yet - but have been expecting this. I think they're tired. Been on the road for almost 2 months. Playing in Utah and particularly Colorado at elevation is a lot harder than it may seem. Colorado is a good team. Most of the Pac-12 are at the top in the country and there isn't a game you can really take off and rest. Our players have to be at the top of their game every game.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - BillBradley - 01-17-2021

I think our ladies are very talented and the pieces fit together well. They enjoy each other, play hard, unselfish, and have what it takes to win a natty. I also think this could be the best team Tara has ever coached. However, I'm concerned they lost this one. Great teams find ways to win games when they aren't at their best. What happened? I don't think a single player would blame the nomad existence. IMO (and this is a sports message board so this is what we get to do:), it came down to 2 things. Note: I am a big Tara fan.
1) We made no defensive adjustments on Hollingshed. Frankly that's unacceptable, especially for a HoF coach. We hardly ever had Lexie and Lacey (our best defenders, gritty, long and 6'2") on the floor at the same time, and NEITHER guarded her in the second half. She was owning Haley, trip after trip. You have to adjust. Make her work, deny, double, jump every ball screen. Her points came way too easily.
2) We got nothing in transition. We walked the ball up and settled for a half court game, which is exactly what Colorado wanted. We have the athletic advantage and the depth. Kiana, Anna, Lexie, Lacey - I will put their fitness up against anyone, even at altitude. But we never pushed the tempo and we just weren't efficient enough with our half court sets. Our bigs were clearly exhausted at times, but not our guards.

I also wasn't a fan of the late timeout call that resulted in the steal off the inbounds pass. I realize that shouldn't have happened, but still don't think it benefited us to stop the clock, let them set their D and put a plan in place.

As other posters have mentioned, hopefully they will show their stuff in the next two games and never look back.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - 81alum - 01-18-2021

(01-17-2021, 11:48 PM)BillBradley Wrote: 1) We made no defensive adjustments on Hollingshed. Frankly that's unacceptable, especially for a HoF coach. We hardly ever had Lexie and Lacey (our best defenders, gritty, long and 6'2") on the floor at the same time, and NEITHER guarded her in the second half. She was owning Haley, trip after trip. You have to adjust. Make her work, deny, double, jump every ball screen. Her points came way too easily.

2) We got nothing in transition. We walked the ball up and settled for a half court game, which is exactly what Colorado wanted.

The Hollingshed question is certainly a puzzlement. I kept waiting for us to double her, as Tara often does against key opponents, and I don't think we did. At least she scored most all of her points when single covered, usually by Jones.

I do remember winning certain other games when we gave up career days to a single opponent player, and Tara being asked about that, in the past--or maybe other coaches during chalk talks. I get the impression that there are certain game plans where the coaches just decide to pick a poison and calculate that a career day by so-and-so won't beat us if that enables us to shut everyone else down. I remember beating Washington while Plum got bushels of baskets once, for example. But I don't think that is what happened yesterday. The scouting report may have been off. Hollingshed had hit only 8 threes all season before yesterday, and then she hit 4 of them yesterday. That changed the entire character of the defense against her. Even the TV announcers observed that Jones played well off Hollingshed. I think we dared her to shoot the three thinking she was less effective at that, but she won the dare.

As far as transition, our first 8 points, when it looked like we might run away with it, were all about transition. We wound up with 14 fast break points and 18 points off turnovers. Those are pretty good numbers. But where we fell down was executing the half court. We had only 12 assists to 29 made baskets. And we went from hitting 14 threes against Utah to 5 against Colorado. Was that a function of the Colorado defense? Probably to an extent, but our shooting was cold. I noticed that most of the three point misses were short, a sign of tiredness--was altitude an issue?

I also wonder what happened to Belibi. Was it just that Brink was 5/5? Was Belibi originally assigned to guard Hollingshed, and then replaced?

Before she went to Colorado, Payne beat us once while coaching lowly Santa Clara. That was a different kind of win in which we scored in the 30s. But she is a terrific coach against us. Why her teams don't do better against everyone else is a mystery to me.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - chimera - 01-18-2021

One thing that had my eyes bugging out of my head at the time was with I think 3 minutes to go in regulation, maybe a bit less, when we were I think up 2 (I should check but I am lazy, and no matter, the game was tied or very close), we had a possession where Kiana dribbled out the shot clock deliberately, like we were killing clock when ahead. I'm sure it must have been done because coaches said to, but why would that be the call there? Can't run out the clock up 2, how does wasting most of a shot clock help? We needed a score or two, not hold and hope for an end of clock play to work (they usually don't). Just seemed really odd to me, like we hamstrung ourselves for no good reason. Am I misremembering the score? I can't bring myself to go look.

Also, to add to my long post above, one key to being a great player is consistency. Good players can look great occasionally, great players, star players, do it more often than not, and when they are off, they are not as badly off. That's what differentiates the play of someone like Kiana, she can be great but is not great consistently, which means she is simply a very good player but not really a star. I don't want to pick on Kiana, whose career I have very much enjoyed and appreciated. Just want to be clear about how I see her game. The patterns have been the same the past two years. Now is our system optimal for her game? I don't know and maybe someone could argue that it impedes her in some way.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - Hulk01 - 01-18-2021

Welcome, Bill Bradley.

I met Mr. Bradley in Heathrow Airport in June 1967, as he was returning to the US from his Rhode Scholarship
to play for the Knicks.
We spoke for some time and he left a last impression on me.
So gracious and generous with his time with a star-struck young fan.

So your posts are apt to make me smile, whatever they say.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - BobK - 01-18-2021

Yes welcome Bill Bradley.

I should have signed up years abd no years ago as Teddy Beard right Phogge ?

I’m ready for Ucla.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - BillBradley - 01-18-2021

That's great you met him! Sadly, I am not the Senator, nor is my intellect or basketball savvy anywhere close. But, I love watching our Stanford women play this year (much more than the men), so that alone qualifies me to post here :> Let's hope the ladies will end up like Bill's '72-'73 Knicks, maybe my favorite team ever.

Another note on the game...I was glad to see Brink on the court late in the game. She's a game changer. If we're going to win it all, she has to be able to play meaningful late minutes when the game's on the line. Yesterday was important to her development.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - jonnyss - 01-18-2021

i agree with others that the elevation was likely one factor. cameron brink was visibly out of breath after 2 minutes of play, which i haven't seen before in her. the men also played way below their usual level at utah and colorado.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - JJJ - 01-18-2021

(01-18-2021, 10:08 AM)chimera Wrote: One thing that had my eyes bugging out of my head at the time was with I think 3 minutes to go in regulation, maybe a bit less, when we were I think up 2 (I should check but I am lazy, and no matter, the game was tied or very close), we had a possession where Kiana dribbled out the shot clock deliberately, like we were killing clock when ahead. I'm sure it must have been done because coaches said to, but why would that be the call there? Can't run out the clock up 2, how does wasting most of a shot clock help? We needed a score or two, not hold and hope for an end of clock play to work (they usually don't). Just seemed really odd to me, like we hamstrung ourselves for no good reason. Am I misremembering the score? I can't bring myself to go look.

I was thinking pretty much the same thing at this point. I also had questions about the end of regulation although playing for the win/OT there made sense, the play calling (I assume that’s what was called) looked forced.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - Hulk01 - 01-18-2021

The deserved compliments for Brink raise the question:
Can Tara run this offense with Brink and Belibi on the court together?

And if not, how are we going to run our offense over the coming years
with Brink, Belibi, Prechtel, Iriafen all appearing to be post players,
with Betts arriving in Belibi's senior year,
perhaps with at least one other bigs, in either Timea Gardiner or Emma Nnaji?

Seems like you'd want to bundle at least two of those players
in a trade for guard and a wing.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - Phogge - 01-18-2021

Ted Beard would be cool Bobbbbbb. Phogge was given to me because, "You can really fog that ball in." So my 2B who became my best man and perhaps the best PI lawyer in the USA remembered the Kansas coach.

Reno Cheso had the best name. Tommy Umphlett became Tommy Omelet. Nobody called Windy McCall "John." Tommy Heath was "Fatso" to us in the RF bleachers. Leo Righetti was always "Spaghetti."

Ebbets Field Flannels has Seal hats, jackets, jerseys and groundskeeper stuff on their site.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - oldalum - 01-18-2021

(01-18-2021, 10:15 AM)Hulk01 Wrote: I met Mr. Bradley in Heathrow Airport in June 1967,

My wife and I once boarded a plane and then-Senator Bradley was sitting in my wife's seat; he graciously moved. I was amazed that he'd fly in coach: with his height it would have been a very tight fit!

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - TheFarm07 - 01-18-2021

(01-18-2021, 10:08 AM)chimera Wrote: One thing that had my eyes bugging out of my head at the time was with I think 3 minutes to go in regulation, maybe a bit less, when we were I think up 2 (I should check but I am lazy, and no matter, the game was tied or very close), we had a possession where Kiana dribbled out the shot clock deliberately, like we were killing clock when ahead. I'm sure it must have been done because coaches said to, but why would that be the call there? Can't run out the clock up 2, how does wasting most of a shot clock help? We needed a score or two, not hold and hope for an end of clock play to work (they usually don't). Just seemed really odd to me, like we hamstrung ourselves for no good reason. Am I misremembering the score? I can't bring myself to go look.

Also, to add to my long post above, one key to being a great player is consistency. Good players can look great occasionally, great players, star players, do it more often than not, and when they are off, they are not as badly off. That's what differentiates the play of someone like Kiana, she can be great but is not great consistently, which means she is simply a very good player but not really a star. I don't want to pick on Kiana, whose career I have very much enjoyed and appreciated. Just want to be clear about how I see her game. The patterns have been the same the past two years. Now is our system optimal for her game? I don't know and maybe someone could argue that it impedes her in some way.

Chimera, it's like you're reading my mind on both points. That first point also stuck out in my mind during the game and my thought process for Tara's rationale was that she wasn't confident in our offense and wanted to reduce the number of possessions that Colorado had and that was why she directed Kiana to drain clock. I don't agree with it, but that's my only explanation on why they did that only up by one score with 2-3 minutes left.

On your second point, I also agree. It's been a pleasure watching Kiana her four seasons on the Farm. I'll always remember her buzzer beating 3-pointer to beat Colorado last year and when she's on, she can drain long range shots from incredible range. I always watching her play; her crossovers are a joy to watch too. However, unfortunately, I would concur that I would put her in the very good category, rather than the great one. As many of us have wondered on this board about her prolonged shooting slumps, she can go through multi-game stretches where she's ice cold. It would have been great to have paired her up with the Ogwumikes or Betts in a couple seasons where they can snag more of her misses for second opportunities.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - JJJ - 01-18-2021

"I hope this really bothers people and gets under their skin and they decide we want to play basketball at a different level," VanDerveer said. "It was really disappointing to me."

https://gostanford.com/news/2021/1/17/womens-basketball-undefeated-streak-comes-to-an-end.aspx

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - 81alum - 01-18-2021

The press conference. I have seldom seen Tara looking quite so drawn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ks9X6laxNQ&feature=emb_logo

"We did not defend Hollingshed worth a darn. She had her way with whoever was guarding her."

She said that last year they tried a zone against her and that failed as well, so she was a known problem. Says they tried different people on her today, all with no success.

"We did not have the ball movement we needed to. We started out very well, but we were not able to continue what we started with.
I'm very disappointed with how we played, and we are just going to have to learn from it and get better."

"We did not lock in defensively. We were not aggressive enough. We just did not do the work, to be honest with you."

She credited Wilson for defending Sherrod (mostly) but "Hollingshed was the name of the game." In a question from Jake she gave Wilson a lot of credit but noted "I know she would like to take back that pass that went right to Sherrod." "She took it hard. We need everyone on our team to take it hard."

When asked about two officiating calls--Brink getting pushed in the back, and a backcourt violation that wasn't, she note "there is nothing you can say about them. I disagreed, but they are the judge and jury."

Asked about Fran, Tara noted that her shot was off, as was Kiana's, and she noted that when your shot is off you have to play lock down defense, but we were fouling instead.

In response to a question that asked whether Colorado was daring us to put the ball on the floor and drive (which I take to mean was guarding the three point line closely) Tara said we needed to play with pace and be aggressive, and we weren't." I think that was a qualified "yes."

With regard to a question about the on-the-road living conditions, Tara noted that "I'm not going to deny that it is a challenge. It's no excuse. Colorado outplayed us....That's on everyone, on the players, on the coaches, I have to do a better job."

"It doesn't get any easier....I hope this gets under people's skin, and they decide they want to play basketball at another level."

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - TheFarm07 - 01-18-2021

(01-18-2021, 01:24 PM)81alum Wrote: The press conference. I have seldom seen Tara looking quite so drawn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ks9X6laxNQ&feature=emb_logo

"We did not defend Hollingshed worth a darn. She had her way with whoever was guarding her."

She said that last year they tried a zone against her and that failed as well, so she was a known problem. Says they tried different people on her today, all with no success.

"We did not have the ball movement we needed to. We started out very well, but we were not able to continue what we started with.
I'm very disappointed with how we played, and we are just going to have to learn from it and get better."

"We did not lock in defensively. We were not aggressive enough. We just did not do the work, to be honest with you."

She credited Wilson for defending Sherrod (mostly) but "Hollingshed was the name of the game." In a question from Jake she gave Wilson a lot of credit but noted "I know she would like to take back that pass that went right to Sherrod." "She took it hard. We need everyone on our team to take it hard."

When asked about two officiating calls--Brink getting pushed in the back, and a backcourt violation that wasn't, she note "there is nothing you can say about them. I disagreed, but they are the judge and jury."

Asked about Fran, Tara noted that her shot was off, as was Kiana's, and she noted that when your shot is off you have to play lock down defense, but we were fouling instead.

In response to a question that asked whether Colorado was daring us to put the ball on the floor and drive (which I take to mean was guarding the three point line closely) Tara said we needed to play with pace and be aggressive, and we weren't." I think that was a qualified "yes."

With regard to a question about the on-the-road living conditions, Tara noted that "I'm not going to deny that it is a challenge. It's no excuse. Colorado outplayed us....That's on everyone, on the players, on the coaches, I have to do a better job."

"It doesn't get any easier....I hope this gets under people's skin, and they decide they want to play basketball at another level."

Thanks 81alum for noting the key points. I know I've been one of the more critical posters on the forum, but I also acknowledged that given the pandemic we are going through and the situation the women's bball team is in, it is very difficult to keep your focus and not get mentally fatigued given everything that's been going on.

We have another difficult match-up against UCLA this Friday, who unlike us, survived their overtime bout with Washington State yesterday. We'll have an opportunity to try our defense again against Onyenwere, Osbourne and Chou and see if it is more effective.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - Hulk01 - 01-18-2021

Current Player Efficiency Ratings, all games
Brink         35.2
Belibi        25.1
Jones         24.2
Lexie        18.5
Prechtel     18.3
Jump     17.9
Wilson       15.8
Williams    10.7
VanG         10.2
Lacie           9.5

For perspective
a PER of 35 would be first team All NBA;
25 is All Star game roster,
18-3–18.5 is a top third player on an average roster,
15.5 is a starter.
10.7 is third person off the bench.

PERs are based on John Hollinger’s formula.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - old spanish trail - 01-18-2021

[quote="old spanish trail" pid='305334' dateline='1610920658']
[quote="Spiny_Norman" pid='305332' dateline='1610919878']
Stanford 0-8 from the field in OT. That won't get it done.

At the end of regulation, Jones passed up a shot at the free throw line, took a dribble and still had room to shoot, but passed that up to dribble into traffic and a contested shot. Did not make sense to me. It was also frustrating to watch Wilson get trapped at the basket on a fast break after a steal and try to shoot through 2 defenders. She could have dished off to Brink or Jones who were trailing the play. Colorado played better and smarter. They earned that win. The mystery is how they were only 3-5 in conference before this game.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Agree, Spiny; they looked much better than a 3-5 team. And, they earned the win. It appeared some calls were missed out here in tv land for both teams, maybe slightly not in our favor. But, it's silly to complain about the refs. They did not lose the game. We did. When Ki goes 0-6 from 3 we will have trouble in a number of games. Imagine they are tired from playing in the sky for two straight games. Hollingshead had the game of her life and the frosh was excellent too. Several of ours underperformed. Game, set match. Undefeated was nice while it lasted.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I apologize for posting it is "silly" to complain about the refs. That's a silly thing to say. Still, we did lose the game.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - 81alum - 01-19-2021

Something I have thought about is the effect of being on the road for months on Kate Paye and family. It has to be incredibly hard on coaches with kids. Do they take the kids on the road with them? Do you say goodbye to your children for months on end, not even coming home for Christmas? There can''t be a good way to handle it.

Now I don't know about the families of the other assistant coaches, since they are new and have not been to the normal chalk talks. Not sure if Katy or Britney have children too.

I also wonder about the quality of the scouting reports. Kate is apparently an expert, as of course is Tara, but it takes assistant coaches some time to learn Tara's way of scouting another team. Katy tangentially discussed this at the virtual "behind the bench" as she marveled at Tara and Kate's scouting abilities. Who had the scout for Colorado? How about the film work and editing facilities? Is it possible under present conditions to do as thorough a scout and install it as would normally be the case? It certainly can't be easier than usual.

RE: WBB: Stanford 72 Colorado 77 OT - old spanish trail - 01-19-2021

[quote="81alum" pid='305434' dateline='1611063911']

Something I have thought about is the effect of being on the road for months on Kate Paye and family. It has to be incredibly hard on coaches with kids. Do they take the kids on the road with them? Do you say goodbye to your children for months on end, not even coming home for Christmas? There can''t be a good way to handle it.

Now I don't know about the families of the other assistant coaches, since they are new and have not been to the normal chalk talks. Not sure if Katy or Britney have children too.

I also wonder about the quality of the scouting reports. Kate is apparently an expert, as of course is Tara, but it takes assistant coaches some time to learn Tara's way of scouting another team. Katy tangentially discussed this at the virtual "behind the bench" as she marveled at Tara and Kate's scouting abilities. Who had the scout for Colorado? How about the film work and editing facilities? Is it possible under present conditions to do as thorough a scout and install it as would normally be the case? It certainly can't be easier than usual.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My guess is Kate had the scout as she was advising Tara in the late minutes. That's why I was surprised the late minutes were not more fruitful. Kate is reportedly a genius scout, and we have seen it innumerable times.