WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - Printable Version
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RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - 81alum - 12-01-2022
To put last night's defense in perspective, Santa Clara scored 69. South Carolina only scored 61 in regulation. FGCU scored 69. Every other team we have played we have held to 50 or less.
Sacramento State, UC Santa Barbara, and common opponent CSUN held Santa Clara to fewer points than we did.
Folks, we have better athletes than those teams. We just were not prepared for the Santa Clara system of play, even though we did manage to shut down their two best players--they had other players who stepped up within the same system.
So my question is: what future opponents do we have who emphasize the pick and roll, who emphasize screening? Oregon used to in the Ionescu days...who does now? I hope Gonzaga is not one of those teams, since we need work.
RE: WBB: Stanford vs. Santa Clara Wed 7pm - mbdude - 12-01-2022
(11-30-2022, 10:15 PM)M T Wrote:(11-30-2022, 09:54 PM)joemontes Wrote: I just don't like the way BETTS is being utilized right now,
especially in this game and even during the Hawaii trip,
given that she was, by far, the most efficient player
during the first 5 games.
I guess you didn't get to watch the game.
It was fast-paced, lots of switching, lots of running. Betts came in for a play. She was near the hoop and apparently was needed to guard someone on the 3pt line who drained a wide open 3. She's way too slow for that. Betts was pulled immediately.
Belibi also gave up 2 or 3 threes to the person she was guarding because she didn't get out to the 3 point line so its tough to single out Betts. Jones at times spends more time looking for a defensive rebound then guarding her player
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - cardfan1996 - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 02:22 AM)M T Wrote: Anybody complaining about the 8 TOs or the 74% FT% ? Good for the team for those.
One could say Stanford beat SCU mainly on FT, 14-6. SCU won the 3PT battle 39pts - 18pts. 2PT battle was Stanford 50pt - 24pt (38 - 24 in the paint).
SCU 15 fouls to Stanford's 11, but SCU had only 10 FTA to Stanford's 19.
8 TO vs 17 Assists. Good ratio.
5 players in double figures shows a balance, but not what should have been dominance.
17 Assists on 31 FG, not to Stanford's expectations.
25 2FG on 48 2FGA is not good.
16 of 31 on layups is not good. Of the 16 made layups, only 5 were consider as paint points. (I'm not sure why)
Rebounding: SCU did not concede rebounds. It was a bit like a Waring blender in there. I felt Stanford did better than usual in having Stanford players near the basket when we shot, but despite the height advantage, we slightly out-rebounded SCU: 74.3% DR 35.7% OR. (Note that 21 of SCU misses were 3FGA vs 15 SCU 2FGA misses, so rebounds were more often longer than usual.)
Not a dominating win as we hoped, but a good challenge to Stanford that I think will help the players understand what they must do.
I was impressed with (I think it was) Lepolo getting out of a 4 on 1 situation with the ball twice under a basket. I felt sure she'd be tied up.
One of the less than good defense by Jones was sometime in the 2nd half (I think about 2:30 left in Q3), the ball was on the opposite side and she wasn't guarding her player, but was instead waiting for something like a shot she could rebound. When the ball was moving, I think it was Bosgana that had to come guard Jones's player (inside the 3pt line), leaving her player open to go to the 3pt line on the baseline for an uncontested 3pt. (One could argue that Bosgana should have contradicted all her instincts to cover the open player closer to the basket and instead to guard the one that could get to the 3pt line. But I put the issue on Jones not guarding her player.) No rebound that time for Jones, and there was no one named Boston on the court.
Stanford was back to its defense of constant switching. They didn't play that against So. Carolina. It sometimes burned Stanford as you might expect.
I was worried SCU might hit a late 3pt shot to make it a 10-pt game. 82-69 sounds a lot better than 82-72.
Cardfan1996, Lepolo is shooting better than Jones at 3FG% and FG% and FT% plus more assists, more steals, fewer turnovers and fouls, and higher +/- in roughly the same number of minutes I wouldn't tout her for All-American status with her numbers, but IMO, one can say she's helping the team more so far than Jones.
I mentioned Haley’s % as well and she, too, should not be on the perimeter and teams don’t guard her out there but they do guard her inside the 3pt line. Lepolo’s defender just abandons her for the most part and some of Haley’s and Cam’s trouble can be attributed to Lepolo’s defender doubling or digging.
But Haley is struggling and will drop in the draft if she doesn’t get it together. She has not shown scouts she can play the 3 at the next level. She has trouble guarding the perimeter and she doesn’t shoot the 3. Stanford just has a team of 4s and two 5s (Prechtel and Betts). I think Haley and Cam are better 4s than Kiki. But Haley is likely not the best choice at 3.
Spike - Spike - 12-01-2022
Ok I’ll say it and everybody will bristle:
I often wonder if we would be a better team with Haley on the bench.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - BACardinal - 12-01-2022
Something was off about the team's body language. While watching the game I noticed Jones and other teammates looked like something had happened off the court. A lot less energy from the starters in the Santa Clara game but I imagine it will blow over and they will come out prepared for the Gonzaga game.
RE: Spike - 81alum - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 10:07 AM)Spike Wrote: Ok I’ll say it and everybody will bristle:I won't bristle. In last year's Gonzaga game Jones could not play, and it was Belibi's turn to shine. And yes there have been games this year when Jones was not playing at all well and the same thought would cross my mind.
I often wonder if we would be a better team with Haley on the bench.
But while I have been critical of Jones in prior games, I do not understand the criticism of her play in this one. This was the game she got back on track, shooting over 50%, making her mid range jumpers rather than only trying contorted shots near the basket, making both free throws, collecting a double-double, adding 3 blocks, dishing 3 assists. This was one of her better games and cause for optimism that she is getting more focus.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - chimera - 12-01-2022
I am not going to put that much stock in this game. I saw a team that was a bit off, and I believe that was due to just coming off the Hawaii trip. Lots of games played there and some fun stuff for the players, but were they able to practice aside from getting ready for the next game? They probably had one day of practice for this game. I just feel like this was a bit of a trap game, and while issues that arose in it like the perimeter defense, need to be fixed, a lot of the fix might just be getting in the gym for a solid few days to work on Stanford, not on what is needed specifically for the next game. Also, give Santa Clara credit for playing a good game and hitting their shots. They ran their offense well.
As far as Jones is concerned, I think we all agree she really, really, really needs a three point shot, now and for the pros. Teams are sagging way off her now. If she hasn't been able to get that shot going by now, being a senior, she probably won't, which is a shame, because it will definitely limit her in the pros by a lot. She is having trouble now because she is often trying to drive into a crowd and then finagle herself some sort of space to shoot. That will be much harder in the WNBA. It isn't easy now. She is just so talented she can make it work fairly often.
So what is the solution? Playing her at the 4 means we sit way too much talent on the bench. We already can't find enough minutes for all the bigs. Playing Jones at the 4 again would also not help her in the long run. I don't know why she is quite so hesitant to try open, in rhythm threes. She hit them in bunches in some big games in previous seasons. She just looks way off mentally trying to shoot them this year. If playing her at the 4 is out, what is the answer?
I agree it would be nice to get more offense from Lepolo, specifically more threes. From the looks of it, she knows that and Tara knows that, and they are working on it. Lepolo looked quite comfortable making threes in the open practice, not so much in games...yet. I am in the camp that says wait and see. Tara talks to her a ton during games (I sit where I can see the bench relatively closely) so she has a lot to think about in games. That will get a lot easier with time and she may well be able to focus more on her own offense. She actually has the highest overall shooting percentage of any of the guards who might handle the point, so it is not like we have someone waiting in the wings who has been gunning threes with ease. I think we all agree Jones is not a pg and after all the talk of that, she hasn't been playing there much at all.
So if you don't like Lepolo at the point, who gets the job? Nivar has a 1:1 A:TO ratio and while I would love to see more of her it would be at the 2 or the 3 so her dynamic scoring ability could be utilized. Harriel's offense stats are similar to Lepolo's, although she's had much less time. She could be an option for more time at the point, but from what I've seen I don't think she should replace Lepolo, just maybe give her some more minutes there and see how her ball handling and passing hold up against better teams.
I would like to see more playing time generally for Bosgana, Nivar, Harriel, and Betts. I assume the coaches thought Santa Clara would be tough for Betts because she would have to guard a lot on the perimeter. She's going to face teams like that in her career so she needs to get used to it. This game was maybe too close to mess around if she had trouble but generally I think they need to squeeze out some more time for her. It's just so hard to do. Every game we wonder hey why didn't we see more of Belibi, Prechtel, or Betts. Just not enough minutes for everyone.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - treetop11 - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 11:00 AM)chimera Wrote: I am not going to put that much stock in this game. I saw a team that was a bit off, and I believe that was due to just coming off the Hawaii trip. Lots of games played there and some fun stuff for the players, but were they able to practice aside from getting ready for the next game? They probably had one day of practice for this game. I just feel like this was a bit of a trap game, and while issues that arose in it like the perimeter defense, need to be fixed, a lot of the fix might just be getting in the gym for a solid few days to work on Stanford, not on what is needed specifically for the next game. Also, give Santa Clara credit for playing a good game and hitting their shots. They ran their offense well.
As far as Jones is concerned, I think we all agree she really, really, really needs a three point shot, now and for the pros. Teams are sagging way off her now. If she hasn't been able to get that shot going by now, being a senior, she probably won't, which is a shame, because it will definitely limit her in the pros by a lot. She is having trouble now because she is often trying to drive into a crowd and then finagle herself some sort of space to shoot. That will be much harder in the WNBA. It isn't easy now. She is just so talented she can make it work fairly often.
So what is the solution? Playing her at the 4 means we sit way too much talent on the bench. We already can't find enough minutes for all the bigs. Playing Jones at the 4 again would also not help her in the long run. I don't know why she is quite so hesitant to try open, in rhythm threes. She hit them in bunches in some big games in previous seasons. She just looks way off mentally trying to shoot them this year. If playing her at the 4 is out, what is the answer?
I agree it would be nice to get more offense from Lepolo, specifically more threes. From the looks of it, she knows that and Tara knows that, and they are working on it. Lepolo looked quite comfortable making threes in the open practice, not so much in games...yet. I am in the camp that says wait and see. Tara talks to her a ton during games (I sit where I can see the bench relatively closely) so she has a lot to think about in games. That will get a lot easier with time and she may well be able to focus more on her own offense. She actually has the highest overall shooting percentage of any of the guards who might handle the point, so it is not like we have someone waiting in the wings who has been gunning threes with ease. I think we all agree Jones is not a pg and after all the talk of that, she hasn't been playing there much at all.
So if you don't like Lepolo at the point, who gets the job? Nivar has a 1:1 A:TO ratio and while I would love to see more of her it would be at the 2 or the 3 so her dynamic scoring ability could be utilized. Harriel's offense stats are similar to Lepolo's, although she's had much less time. She could be an option for more time at the point, but from what I've seen I don't think she should replace Lepolo, just maybe give her some more minutes there and see how her ball handling and passing hold up against better teams.
I would like to see more playing time generally for Bosgana, Nivar, Harriel, and Betts. I assume the coaches thought Santa Clara would be tough for Betts because she would have to guard a lot on the perimeter. She's going to face teams like that in her career so she needs to get used to it. This game was maybe too close to mess around if she had trouble but generally I think they need to squeeze out some more time for her. It's just so hard to do. Every game we wonder hey why didn't we see more of Belibi, Prechtel, or Betts. Just not enough minutes for everyone.
Really good observations.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - cardfan1996 - 12-01-2022
I’d prefer Harriel, Bosgana or Nivar. None of them are reluctant shooters. And I think if they were playing 39 minutes and weren’t seated the second they made a mistake, their %s would improve. I don’t think you can be a reluctant outside shooter as a point guard, it’s an unworkable model. In the last decade, only that 2017 championship S.Carolina team had a pass first point guard and she is on a WNBA team now (that is not Lepolo’s trajectory). And I am willing to bet even the S.Carolina guard had to make open 3s in two or three games eventually for S.Carolina to get there. Much like Haley, Lepolo’s shot won’t increase accuracy through repetition. She, like Haley, has poor shooting mechanics.
As for Haley, she played an outsized role as a 4 in that 2021 championship in both S.Carolina and Arizona game. Neither Texas in the Elite 8 nor UConn in the Final Four had an answer for her at the 4. I’d rather they turn Kiki or Fran into a 3 vs mess up what has been Stanford’s only mismatch in a lot of critical games.
Haley is a bad perimeter defender but Fran is even worse if that is possible. Fran also doesn’t have a 15ft shot (Haley does), Fran is also not a good post defender (Haley is adequate to sometimes very good) and obviously Haley is the better passer, finisher and defensive rebounder.
Fran is the better screener and offensive rebounder. But given Fran’s VERY limited range, Haley creates more spacing.
I am back to Brink, Ashten, Haley, Hannah and Harriel/Bosgana/Nivar. Nivar seems like the better defender but Harriel looked great in the first couple of games I saw. Since then, not so much. Ashten is the 2nd best shooter on the team. Pairing Ashten with Hannah gives Haley lanes and gaps to penetrate. That is Haley’s game, that has always been her game. She is a scorer not a shooter and it’s worked fine the last 2 years.
Having people on the floor that are disregarded offensive players (Lepolo and Agnes), will never work. No opposing coach is dumb enough to guard them (well maybe Jolly) and leave either Haley or Cam open to go 1 on 1. You can bring Lepolo off the bench for a change of pace and Agnes for special defensive assignments but they should NEVER play together, and Tara tries to play them together a lot, and the offense grinds to a halt every time. Boggles the mind.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - chimera - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 11:53 AM)cardfan1996 Wrote: I’d prefer Harriel, Bosgana or Nivar. None of them are reluctant shooters. And I think if they were playing 39 minutes and weren’t seated the second they made a mistake, their %s would improve. I don’t think you can be a reluctant outside shooter as a point guard, it’s an unworkable model. In the last decade, only that 2017 championship S.Carolina team had a pass first point guard and she is on a WNBA team now (that is not Lepolo’s trajectory). And I am willing to bet even the S.Carolina guard had to make open 3s in two or three games eventually for S.Carolina to get there. Much like Haley, Lepolo’s shot won’t increase accuracy through repetition. She, like Haley, has poor shooting mechanics.
As for Haley, she played an outsized role as a 4 in that 2021 championship in both S.Carolina and Arizona game. Neither Texas in the Elite 8 nor UConn in the Final Four had an answer for her at the 4. I’d rather they turn Kiki or Fran into a 3 vs mess up what has been Stanford’s only mismatch in a lot of critical games.
Haley is a bad perimeter defender but Fran is even worse if that is possible. Fran also doesn’t have a 15ft shot (Haley does), Fran is also not a good post defender (Haley is adequate to sometimes very good) and obviously Haley is the better passer, finisher and defensive rebounder.
Fran is the better screener and offensive rebounder. But given Fran’s VERY limited range, Haley creates more spacing.
I am back to Brink, Ashten, Haley, Hannah and Harriel/Bosgana/Nivar. Nivar seems like the better defender but Harriel looked great in the first couple of games I saw. Since then, not so much. Ashten is the 2nd best shooter on the team. Pairing Ashten with Hannah gives Haley lanes and gaps to penetrate. That is Haley’s game, that has always been her game. She is a scorer not a shooter and it’s worked fine the last 2 years.
Having people on the floor that are disregarded offensive players (Lepolo and Agnes), will never work. No opposing coach is dumb enough to guard them (well maybe Jolly) and leave either Haley or Cam open to go 1 on 1. You can bring Lepolo off the bench for a change of pace and Agnes for special defensive assignments but they should NEVER play together, and Tara tries to play them together a lot, and the offense grinds to a halt every time. Boggles the mind.
I am intrigued by Bosgana's potential but what evidence is there that she has a good enough handle to be an every day point guard who has to deal with pressure?
You want Belibi to be a three but not Jones yet you also think Belibi is a poor perimeter defender and we all see that she doesn't have a mid-range shot at all? You last proposed line-up of Brink, Prechtel, Jones, Jump and anyone but Lepolo at the point has one of our bigs still at the three. Prechtel is not a three and can't defend the perimeter any better than Jones. She shot threes at 28% last season. Is she on a hot streak or has she improved? Iriafen at the 3 seems to me not something that is going to happen, and why should it? She has improved a lot inside and has a lot of room to grow into that role still. She could play a 4 well, that's true, although she has not yet shown a three point shot.
We made the F4 last season with our starting point guard and starting 2 guard scoring combined less than ten points per game. Is that ideal? No!!! Did their defense make up for it? Not entirely, not even close probably. But there is nothing that says a team cannot have a point guard who is not a big scorer or good three point shooter and win it all. It sure helps if you have one, of course. Lepolo has made a mid-range jumper a few times this season. If she can drive in a few feet and hit that, she will need to be guarded. If she can find driving lanes on occasion, which she has, she will have to be guarded. No team is going to let her drive. Drive and dish is fine.
I don't think Emma-Nnopu and Lepolo are playing together very much. I don't think they should either, but that seems to me not a big issue Emma-Nnopu played 4 minutes against Santa Clara and 4 minutes against South Carolina. Minutes in 40 point blowouts don't matter. I guess my mind is not boggled since Tara is not playing them together much if at all.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - Card10Fan - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 11:40 AM)treetop11 Wrote:(12-01-2022, 11:00 AM)chimera Wrote: I am not going to put that much stock in this game. I saw a team that was a bit off, and I believe that was due to just coming off the Hawaii trip. Lots of games played there and some fun stuff for the players, but were they able to practice aside from getting ready for the next game? They probably had one day of practice for this game. I just feel like this was a bit of a trap game, and while issues that arose in it like the perimeter defense, need to be fixed, a lot of the fix might just be getting in the gym for a solid few days to work on Stanford, not on what is needed specifically for the next game. Also, give Santa Clara credit for playing a good game and hitting their shots. They ran their offense well.
As far as Jones is concerned, I think we all agree she really, really, really needs a three point shot, now and for the pros. Teams are sagging way off her now. If she hasn't been able to get that shot going by now, being a senior, she probably won't, which is a shame, because it will definitely limit her in the pros by a lot. She is having trouble now because she is often trying to drive into a crowd and then finagle herself some sort of space to shoot. That will be much harder in the WNBA. It isn't easy now. She is just so talented she can make it work fairly often.
So what is the solution? Playing her at the 4 means we sit way too much talent on the bench. We already can't find enough minutes for all the bigs. Playing Jones at the 4 again would also not help her in the long run. I don't know why she is quite so hesitant to try open, in rhythm threes. She hit them in bunches in some big games in previous seasons. She just looks way off mentally trying to shoot them this year. If playing her at the 4 is out, what is the answer?
I agree it would be nice to get more offense from Lepolo, specifically more threes. From the looks of it, she knows that and Tara knows that, and they are working on it. Lepolo looked quite comfortable making threes in the open practice, not so much in games...yet. I am in the camp that says wait and see. Tara talks to her a ton during games (I sit where I can see the bench relatively closely) so she has a lot to think about in games. That will get a lot easier with time and she may well be able to focus more on her own offense. She actually has the highest overall shooting percentage of any of the guards who might handle the point, so it is not like we have someone waiting in the wings who has been gunning threes with ease. I think we all agree Jones is not a pg and after all the talk of that, she hasn't been playing there much at all.
So if you don't like Lepolo at the point, who gets the job? Nivar has a 1:1 A:TO ratio and while I would love to see more of her it would be at the 2 or the 3 so her dynamic scoring ability could be utilized. Harriel's offense stats are similar to Lepolo's, although she's had much less time. She could be an option for more time at the point, but from what I've seen I don't think she should replace Lepolo, just maybe give her some more minutes there and see how her ball handling and passing hold up against better teams.
I would like to see more playing time generally for Bosgana, Nivar, Harriel, and Betts. I assume the coaches thought Santa Clara would be tough for Betts because she would have to guard a lot on the perimeter. She's going to face teams like that in her career so she needs to get used to it. This game was maybe too close to mess around if she had trouble but generally I think they need to squeeze out some more time for her. It's just so hard to do. Every game we wonder hey why didn't we see more of Belibi, Prechtel, or Betts. Just not enough minutes for everyone.
Really good observations.
Yes, agree with all of this analysis. It still just baffles me Jones has not improved her perimeter shot at all in 4 years. The one area in most need of work from day 1 and no indication any progress has been made. Is that on the coaches not emphasizing it or Haley just not putting in the time to get better? I don't know but she's going to have a hard time scoring at the next level without a perimeter shot and if you can't score or be a threat in the WNBA, you probably don't make a roster with how few spots there are.
Will be worth watching if any major changes with the next 3 games and more practice time. Sunday will be only our second game against a ranked opponent so far.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - cardfan1996 - 12-01-2022
If the goal is to win championships, then Lepolo is not the answer. Anna sat much of that UConn game because Geno refused to guard her. The best thing to happen to Stanford in that Texas game was her foul trouble. There is max potential to Lepolo. If Haley continues to struggle too, this train could come to a halt a lot sooner than it should. But even if Haley can overcome her troubles, if Lepolo is the point guard and no one else is being given experience as a backup, then the max potential is still sooner than the Final Four (and it’s a double edged sword because while Lepolo relieves Haley from ballhandling duties, she congest the spacing in the half court so much that Haley can’t operate efficiently).
Lacie was our leading 3-pt shooter for the first part of the season. I’d take 100 Lacies at point guard vs a non-shooting guard. Lacie should have shot more but for the most part if she was left open, it was a defensive mistake not the opposing team’s intended scout.
Plus Lexie and Lacie were lockdown defenders and generational defensive talent. We don’t have the defensive talent on the perimeter.
Look, even if you disagree with me re: Lepolo. Injuries happen. Foul trouble happens. Why wouldn’t you be giving a backup substantial opportunity through the massive number of cupcakes on this early season schedule to show you a different look? Instead Lepolo is logging massive minutes even in the 4th quarter.
Also not a fan of either Fran or Kiki at the 3. I just don’t think Haley should be forced out of position in her draft year to accommodate inferior 4s when she is the best 4. The point was other players should adjust to her and Cam not the other way around. The starters should only be players that compliment your two All-Americans
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - OCcardinal - 12-01-2022
(11-30-2022, 10:53 PM)81alum Wrote: 4. Brink collected 4 fouls and played only 19 minutes. The broken record just keeps repeating. Her first foul was a pretty egregious lack of judgment--reaching in against a smaller player on the perimeter for no particularly good reason. One of her later fouls she tried to block from way behind a player who had beaten her. While it is possible that one or two of her fouls might have been bad calls or close calls, those two were poor judgment, pure and simple--impulse control. We can only imagine how great she would be if she could stay on the floor for 40 minutes every game. Her presence on the floor counts for more than just the points she scores--she makes it easier for everyone else to score. She had 4 assists and a trey--both of which loosen things up for her teammates. We will not win a natty, and perhaps not get close, unless she can figure out how to stay on the floor for 30 minutes a game.Brink isn't a 30-minutes-a-game type player:
Season..Avg Min per Game (# of 30+ min games)
Frosh..18.3 (1)
Soph..21.9 (4)
This year..18.6 (0) (The competition level explains the lower avg minutes so far)
However, despite her limited minutes Brink still leads the team in efficiency:
Stanford EFF Leaders Per Game
2020-21
(1) Haley Jones 16.9
(2) Cameron Brink 14.5
(3) Kiana Williams 12.8
2021-22
(1) Haley Jones 17.9
(2) Cameron Brink 17.6
(3) Lexie Hull 13.6
This Season (so far)
(1) Cameron Brink 15.9
(2) Haley Jones 15.4
(3) Kiki Iriafen 11.2
Brink is like a booster rocket whose fuel is quickly spent, but still gets you into orbit.
Ever since I recognized this pattern, it's made watching Stanford WBB games so much more enjoyable. Instead of fretting that we can't get more Brink, I relish in what she brings to each game.
That's not to say there aren't games where foul trouble limited Brink's ability to make a meaningful contribution (the Tennessee game last season where she fouled out in 8 minutes comes to mind). That's also not to say I don't want Brink to clean up dumb fouls. But I'm not going to fret because Brink isn't averaging 30 minutes a game (assuming Tara would even want her playing those kind of minutes).
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - 81alum - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 01:20 PM)cardfan1996 Wrote: If the goal is to win championships, then Lepolo is not the answer.I am hopeful that Nivar will come along. Where I disagree with your observation is its absolute certainty--which doesn't really account for player development. I think it every bit as reasonable to believe that Lepolo will gain confidence in her shot (and she did sink a trey last game) as to believe that Nivar will acquire more vision and passing acumen. Both of them are highly likely to improve in the areas in which they currently are less strong. This is particularly true on a Tara team--although the most dramatic progress for guards is usually between the freshman and sophomore years.
Let's take Amber Orrange, who as a freshman in 2011-12 started 23 games as we searched for a point guard. She and Kokenis were both fulfilling that role. Orrange was 3/10 from three point range for the entire year. She averaged 5 ppg. She did have a mid range jumper and could drive, but clearly did not do a lot of either. She had 112 assists to 57 turnovers, however, and this was enough to get us to the final four.
Now take a look at Orrange's senior year, 2014-15. She started all 36 games, and her assist/turnover ratio continued to be excellent as it was her freshman year: 127:66. However, by this point she became our second leading scorer at 13ppg, and was 29/68 from three point range for a fiery 42%.
So the question is whether Lepolo will follow the Sniezek trajectory or the Orrange trajectory. You must think the former, I think there are clues that say the latter. But neither one of us really knows--it depends upon many imponderables and we will just have to see.
(12-01-2022, 01:32 PM)OCcardinal Wrote: However, despite her limited minutes Brink still leads the team in efficiency:I like your simile, and think it accurate. And I agree that when she is on the floor Brink is almost always the best player out there. I refuse to believe, however, that she can't be coached into playing more minutes--something she clearly wants also.
Stanford EFF Leaders Per Game
This Season (so far)
(1) Cameron Brink 15.9
(2) Haley Jones 15.4
(3) Kiki Iriafen 11.2
Brink is like a booster rocket whose fuel is quickly spent, but still gets you into orbit.
During Chiney's senior year she averaged 34 minutes per game. I am greedy, and would love to see Brink do likewise. Chiney also had fouling issues as a freshman, but gradually grew out of them over the course of her college career. I hope we can see similar growth for Brink.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - cardfan1996 - 12-01-2022
Let me clarify - if you want to win it all this season (and the field is completely open this year), then Lepolo is not the answer. Next year, it is UConn’s to lose when Paige gets back. UConn still has questions at 4 or 5 but Edwards is adequate at 4 and sometimes exceptional. All they need is a stretch 4 or 5 in the portal that can defend. But Geno is a masterful coach to already have 3 Top 10 wins without Paige, Dorka and the injured freshman. Stanford may not have any Top 10 wins by March.
Lepolo’s shot doesn’t go in because her mechanics are off (much like Marta’s shot mechanics) not because of lack of repetition. That’s why Lepolo or Haley “putting up more practice shots” with their same inefficient motion won’t work. Think of it as a golf swing. She has to completely rework her shot to eliminate her negative motion to become a better shooter. And she’s likely been shooting like that since she picked up a basketball as a kid. I can tell because as a child moves further away from the basket, they break their form in hopes that it will generate power for longer distances (and the way they do this tends never to work). To change your mechanics is drastic and it probably only happens in the summer, or consecutive summers.
Amber didn’t have the same issue with her shot. An Amber-like player starting on this team would make Stanford the favorites to win it all.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - chimera - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 02:03 PM)81alum Wrote:(12-01-2022, 01:20 PM)cardfan1996 Wrote: If the goal is to win championships, then Lepolo is not the answer.I am hopeful that Nivar will come along. Where I disagree with your observation is its absolute certainty--which doesn't really account for player development. I think it every bit as reasonable to believe that Lepolo will gain confidence in her shot (and she did sink a trey last game) as to believe that Nivar will acquire more vision and passing acumen. Both of them are highly likely to improve in the areas in which they currently are less strong. This is particularly true on a Tara team--although the most dramatic progress for guards is usually between the freshman and sophomore years.
Let's take Amber Orrange, who as a freshman in 2011-12 started 23 games as we searched for a point guard. She and Kokenis were both fulfilling that role. Orrange was 3/10 from three point range for the entire year. She averaged 5 ppg. She did have a mid range jumper and could drive, but clearly did not do a lot of either. She had 112 assists to 57 turnovers, however, and this was enough to get us to the final four.
Now take a look at Orrange's senior year, 2014-15. She started all 36 games, and her assist/turnover ratio continued to be excellent as it was her freshman year: 127:66. However, by this point she became our second leading scorer at 13ppg, and was 29/68 from three point range for a fiery 42%.
So the question is whether Lepolo will follow the Sniezek trajectory or the Orrange trajectory. You must think the former, I think there are clues that say the latter. But neither one of us really knows--it depends upon many imponderables and we will just have to see.
This, 100% this! I don't think anyone is arguing that Lepolo should be our only point guard or that it would not be good to give Harriel and Nivar more time (I don't think Bosgana is in the running for point guard duty, but I would love to see more of her at other positions too.). I would like to see more of both of them at the point and even more at the 2 so we can see how well they score at that position. We need subs for Jump too.
What we are saying is that what you see from any of the frosh - Lepolo, Nivar, Betts, Papadaki, and Harriel (redshirt so this is her first season in games) is not necessarily what you will see in a few months or in a year. I reject the notion that there is just one way to play point guard on a championship team. We saw that last year making a F4 with a starting pg who did not play that position at Stanford before and was a much better defender than offensive threat. You can say all you want about what other good things Lacie Hull did or Wilson did, but at the end of the day, neither was a scorer despite starting and getting big minutes. If we can accept that they did a good job their way, maybe we can accept that Lepolo (or any of the others) can do a good job a different way even if she doesn't score a lot. I would prefer more scoring from her but I am willing to wait and see. I don't want to see one month of someone's career and decide what I see is what I will see ever after.
The perfect point guard might be a 40% three point shooter who was adept at finding her shot, a great athletic driver, a creative passer who could drive and dish and run a fast and smart offense, and someone with an amazing handle that nobody would dare press. That player is not on our team. We do not currently have an All-American point guard. 99% of teams don't. Right now, Tara is choosing the player who runs the offense well (in a chalk talk Katie Steding said they love how quickly Lepolo runs things and that the team plays better offense when she is in, for that that's worth), passes well, avoids turnovers, and creates well for others on the break and in the half court despite that player not showing a ton of offense yet. They seem to be working on increasing her scoring so they are definitely cognizant of the need for her to be an offensive threat enough to be guarded. That says to me they believe she is capable of scoring more. If you think that what you see is what you get for Lepolo or any frosh, I very much disagree. I've seen plenty of players come through the program who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn early frosh season yet became good shooters with some experience.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - Mick - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 07:14 AM)81alum Wrote: To put last night's defense in perspective, Santa Clara scored 69. South Carolina only scored 61 in regulation. FGCU scored 69. Every other team we have played we have held to 50 or less.
Sacramento State, UC Santa Barbara, and common opponent CSUN held Santa Clara to fewer points than we did.
Folks, we have better athletes than those teams. We just were not prepared for the Santa Clara system of play, even though we did manage to shut down their two best players--they had other players who stepped up within the same system.
So my question is: what future opponents do we have who emphasize the pick and roll, who emphasize screening? Oregon used to in the Ionescu days...who does now? I hope Gonzaga is not one of those teams, since we need work.
I think that Santa Clara prepares for and gets up for Stanford far more than they do any other team. What you saw was SCU's "A" game. Conversely, it's easy to overlook SCU as an opponent. I think if the opponent were South Carolina, UConn or tOSU, you'd see a different Stanford. last night, they played just as well as they needed to.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - jonnyss - 12-01-2022
i don't want the point guard in a lineup featuring cameron brink, haley jones, hannah jump, and kiki iriafen / ashten prechtel to take many shots. i want her to distribute the ball to those (all-)stars.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - TonyLima - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 06:07 PM)jonnyss Wrote: i don't want the point guard in a lineup featuring cameron brink, haley jones, hannah jump, and kiki iriafen / ashten prechtel to take many shots. i want her to distribute the ball to those (all-)stars.
If the point guard never shoots, that leaves one defender free. Not good. Lepolo really needs to work on her 3 point shot.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - TheFarm07 - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 06:37 PM)TonyLima Wrote:(12-01-2022, 06:07 PM)jonnyss Wrote: i don't want the point guard in a lineup featuring cameron brink, haley jones, hannah jump, and kiki iriafen / ashten prechtel to take many shots. i want her to distribute the ball to those (all-)stars.
If the point guard never shoots, that leaves one defender free. Not good. Lepolo really needs to work on her 3 point shot.
100% agreed. I would argue and I think some of my fellow Cardboarders would agree that the issue is not about distribution. Lepolo has been doing a tremendous job passing the ball and running the offense, considering that these are the first few days of her collegiate career.
I am also not going to assume that her path will follow that of Sniezek's. I am not an expert in basketball technique, so I can't really confirm about earlier comments made about her shooting technique and if she needs an overhaul to make it more consistent going forward.
It's only been two seasons since her graduation, but I hope we haven't forgotten about Kiana Williams and the impact she made on the floor. Yes, she wasn't a natural PG and wasn't as visionary a passer as a more typical PG, but her ability to create offense on her own was so critical in our championship run. Yes, she was hot and cold with her shooting. But when the shot clock was running down or even when there was an opening, it was so nice to have a PG being able to seize those opportunities, create something out of nothing and keep defenses honest. There can be something deflating to an opposing team when a PG takes the ball down the court, takes a look at the defense and has the range and skill just to drain the three. Perhaps one of the reasons why Haley had dominating games against South Carolina and Arizona in the national semis and finals despite those two teams' great defenses was that they couldn't focus on her if the shot clock was waning and/or that she knew she had somebody else that could create something off the dribble so readily.
And it's not just her. Think about all of the tremendous PGs that we've faced over the years: Paige Bueckers, Sabrina Ionescu, Kelsey Plum, Jordin Canada, Aari MacDonald, these players with their ability to create on their own adds an important dimension to an offense that is so great to have.
Look at what Olivia Miles and Sonia Citron have done in their young careers at Notre Dame, the impact Kiki Rice is already having at UCLA, losing on those recruits hurts.
I think just as Lepolo has done impressive things so far in her first few collegiate games and we shouldn't write her off or dismiss her so quickly, we shouldn't go overboard in the other direction either. Her current ceiling on her offensive skills (note my inclusion of the word current as I am not saying she can't develop a more offensive game like 81alum pointed out with Orrange) is one of the reasons our offense is not as dynamic as it could be. This is not all her fault either; I am not pinning all of our offensive issues on her. She didn't miss easy layups last night or got into silly foul trouble; we need to work on things on both ends of the floor as a team.