WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - Printable Version

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RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - petersalas - 12-07-2024

We are talking about Tiffany Bird! When she’s reffing any Stanford game, I expect the worst. She hasn’t been as bad this season (so far), but she’s still Tiffany Bird. 

M T dateline='[url=tel:1733530608' Wrote:  1733530608[/url]']

AndyCardinal03 dateline='[url=tel:1733493854' Wrote:  1733493854[/url]']

- I pulled up the NCAA rulebook this morning and my read of it says that they got that lane violation call on Nunu wrong. The rulebook says (rule 8.f): "No opponent (player or bench personnel) shall disconcert (e.g., taunt, bait, gesture or delay) the free-thrower." Nunu clearly wasn't in the lane, so they had to have called her for baiting, but you can't "bait" your own teammate. That was a point taken off the board in a crucial moment.

(jonnyss, it does not help to quote unknown rules or judgements.  The NCAA WBB rule book and the NCAA WBB case book are readily available.)

In the NCAA Basketball "2023-24 and 2024-25 Women’s Rules Book"
Rule 8.5.1.b
"The free-thrower shall not purposely fake a try nor shall the free-thrower’s
teammates and opponents purposely fake a violation."

It was a correct call, under the assumption that her jerking was faking a violation.  I would have worded the rule differently (because I don't think she faked a violation, whatever that means... maybe putting your foot above the lane?  No, both feet must be on the floor.)

On a different FT attempt, there was a violation by a LSU player because a foot was out of her lane.  Uncalled.

AndyCardinal03 dateline='[url=tel:1733493854' Wrote:  1733493854[/url]']
...Stephenson ...

Stevenson


I disagree with the thought that a close loss suggests more close losses.  If you consider the refs fair but flawed, the game hung on how many calls favored one team or the other.  For instance, the travel call on Stevenson was a bad call - that took 2 points off the board for Stanford.  If we play a #5 team that closely, I think there's a good chance we'll be in at least the top 15 at the end of the season.

(I hadn't realized the distinction earlier but this is how I read the rules-- if you receive a pass with both feet on the floor, you can pivot on either, but if you end your dribble with both feet on the floor, you can lift one or both feet, but neither may touch the ground again while you have the ball.  Maybe Tiffany Bird confused the two when she made the bad call on Stevenson, but she should know better.)

I have been a supporter of Lepolo, but after watching this game, my opinion has changed that Lepolo is too deliberate for this offense. She's smart and good with the ball.  I'm not concerned about her shooting that much, but she will gum up and slow down the flow.  But, I haven't seen her that much in this offense; maybe she can play at a faster pace.

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RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - M T - 12-07-2024

Brought to you by Tiffany Bird, Brenda Pantoja, Brian Garland.

These are some of the calls that might have gone differently:

But first, a preface...
Pages 4 through 7 in the rule book are Points of Emphasis.

Quote: The Rules Committee has identified the following as significant concerns
that need to be addressed because of their increased occurrence.
.,.Officials are tasked with ensuring that the competing teams play within the
rules because the rules basically guarantee fair play to the end that no player
and neither team gains an unfair advantage over an opponent. When officials do
not enforce the playing rules, it impacts the purpose of the playing rules.
... Likewise, the enforcement of a playing rule is never a
"game interrupter"

Among these are a section on traveling and a section on the coaching box.

Quote:When the dribble is ended on one foot (this is the pivot foot) and the player
holding the ball steps with the free foot, lifts the pivot foot and then returns the
pivot foot to the playing court while still in control of the ball, this is a traveling
violation.

Quote:Coaches who go beyond the 38-foot line,
or more importantly, onto the playing court, gain a distinct advantage, which
is not within the spirit and intent of the rules.

And in the Officiating Guidelines:

Quote:The rules committee wants the coaching box rule enforced
and technical fouls ruled for infractions.
...When the head coach is clearly and
completely outside either the coaching box...
and: ...
or (3) interferes with an official's movements or ability
to officiate play, the head coach will be assessed a technical foul without
warning.

Quote:Misconduct
...A warning shall not be issued when the conduct, whether
inside or outside the coaching box, is a blatant misconduct violation.
Blatant misconduct shall result in a technical foul being issued to the
offender. Examples of misconduct by student-athletes and/or coaches
include, but are not limited to:
II-1.a.2,c. Prolonged, negative responses to a call/no-call that are disrespectful or
unprofessional and include, but are not limited to, thrashing the arms
in disgust, emphatically using an officiating signal to illustrate disbelief
over a no-call, dramatizing contact by re-enacting the play, pointing
at a video board or showing an official an electronic device to express
disagreement with a ruling, or running or jumping in disbelief over a
call/no-call.

   (I would call that the Mulkey rule.)

Quote:Assistant coaches and other bench personnel. All bench personnel, with
the exception of the head coach, are required to be seated on the bench while
the ball is live except to react spontaneously to an outstanding play and then
to immediately return to sitting on the bench. Violations by players, and
especially assistant coaches, should not be tolerated by officials.

Q1 2:34 3 staff and 1 player rise from the benches to be sideline referees for a lack of a call they wanted,  This is not allowed. (Rule 10.5.d)


Q1 1:25 LSU player walks into the player with the ball, knocking her almost off her spot. (If you believe "No harm, no foul", why is there a Plus-1 on a made shot with a foul?)
   Video clip   .

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Q2 8:31 Video clip LSU Player travels before shooting. She catches the ball with her right foot down and left foot up. She steps and lands her left foot which makes her right foot the pivot foot (instead, she could have done a jump stop).  She then lifts her right foot and touches it to the ground before shooting, which is a travel.  Uncalled.
Q2 8:01 LSU player carries (palms) the ball beyond the key before restarting her dribble. I should have also had a video in which it is pretty obvious. Uncalled.

Q2 7:58 LSU player is clearly over Heal's back on a rebound. Uncalled.

Q2 7:47 Video clip  LSU player ends dribble with both feet on the floor.  She then hops, landing both feet on the floor,  That is a travel, not a jump stop.  Uncalled.
Q2 7:27 LSU players play team maul ball on Agara. One grabs an arm with both hands and tries to pull the arm away. The other seems to initially grab the other arm. Garland calls a tie ball.  (Compare to Q4 6:06 where Bosgana has one hand on the ball but fouls with the other, and is properly called for a foul.)

Q2 6:20  Video clip LSU player ends her dribble with her right foot on the floor. She steps with her left foot, making her right foot the pivot foot.  Then she steps with her right foot, landing it before passing.  This is a travel.  Uncalled
Q2 2:59 Another FT, another LSU player out of her lane before the ball is released. Uncalled. (FT missed)

Q2 2:31 Video clip LSU player impedes Agara's progress and pushes her off her path by moving into her with her body. Best seen in replay after stoppage at Q2 1:47
Q2 2:07 After a Stanford defensive RB, a LSU player trips Harriel on the way down the court, sending her sprawling.  Uncalled.  Two of the three refs were looking elsewhere, but it appears Garland was looking that way.
Q2 1:47 Another FT, another LSU player out of her lane before the ball is released.  Not callable as the FT was made.

Q2 1:21 A player on the bench is standing the entire time Stanford is in this half court.  Gee, I wonder what advantage that could that be to LSU?  It is a violation.

Q2 1:14 She has been joined by a couple of more referees with white jerseys.

Q2 1:05 The camera angle makes it difficult to confirm that the LSU coach is standing on the court while play is active in front of her, but here you can tell she is at least 2 feet out on the court.

Q2 1:02 The coach is camping out on the court. Is there a 3 second call on coaches?


Too long for 1 post. To be continued...

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - martyup - 12-07-2024

Those bad and missed calls were very frustrating.  What was also frustrating was that we had the game in the bag to the extent that many LSU fans were leaving the building.  Then we let them steal the game from us.

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - M T - 12-07-2024

Q3 5:47 LSU player's foot is outside her lane on a FT. Both feet must be in the player's lane.  I've never seen this called, but it is a rule.

Q3 4:01 Another palming of the ball before continuing the dribble. Note the position of the arm and the ball, which confirms that the hand is not on the side or top of the ball.

Q3 3:25 Video clip Stevenson receives a pass with both feet on the floor, raises her right foot and pivots on her left foot, puts her right foot down, raises her pivot (left) foot, and makes a basket without her pivot(left) foot coming down again.  This is not a travel. Tiffany Bird makes a bad call, nullifying Stanford's bucket. 
Q3 1:48 LSU coach clearly has both feet in the court while the ball is live. Assistant coach is improperly standing.

Q3 1:34 Video clip LSU player catches the ball with the right foot on the ground, then takes a step with the left, making the right foot the pivot foot. Then she brings the right foot forward and lands it (making it a travel) before jumping to take a shot.  Uncalled.
Q3 1:13 Video clip LSU coach goes several feet out on the court while the ball is live.  This is an instructional video demonstrating all the actions mentioned in Officiating Guideline II-1.a.2,c.  Why, you'd think that guideline was written with this coach's behavior in mind....  I guess Tiffany Bird didn't read that far in the rule book.

  Ok, ok... I'll refrain from pointing out other actions by the LSU coach.
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Q4 7:17 Video clip Bosgana gets a defensive RB. A LSU player bumps her with her hips causing Bosgana's feet to shift.  Uncalled foul.  Immediately after this, while the ball is live, three staff on the LSU bench stand up to object to a non-call.  This is not a permitted action
Q4 4:39 Video clip LSU player not only goes over Agara's back trying to get a rebound, but also knocks her to the ground, and falls on her.  I'm sure if the LSU player had jumped up and stepped on Agara, Tiffany Bird would have called a tripping foul on Agara for being on the ground,
Q4 0:34 Video clip Player ends her dribble with the right foot on the ground. The player steps with the left foot, making the right foot the pivot foot.  She jumps off her left foot. If either foot touches the ground, she has traveled.  She collides with the opponent just as her right foot is about to touch ground.  I'll assume that is the time of the foul (or is it when the official signals the foul?). So the foul occurs before the travel.  Her right foot touches down(#2) and she starts to bring the ball down toward her head.  Her right foot comes up and her left foot touches down (#2). As her left foot is down, she moves the ball further back (behind her head). It is that movement that I would call the start of her shot. She then starts moving the ball upward and forward and jumps off her left foot. While in the air, she again brings the ball down toward her head. Some might call that the start of her shot.  As she lands on her right foot (the 3rd time!), she releases the ball.  Rule 5.1.10 says The try starts when the player begins the motion that normally
precedes the release of the ball on a try. Any activity that occurs prior to this
motion shall not be considered in the act of shooting.".
By that rule, the foul was before the act of shooting.  It should have been a regular foul and there was no basket.  Since the team was in the bonus, two FT should have been awarded.
(At the time of the foul, the ball was in upright arms. The player did not move to release the ball before her foot would have hit the ground for a travel, so she clearly was not in the process of shooting the ball legally.)
Q4 0:16 Video clip Harriet gets knocked off her position when receiving the ball. Clearly an uncalled foul. For those who said the officials would swallow their whistle at the end of the game, I refer you to the most recent LSU-Stanford game.
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OT 3:54 One hand on each of the opponent's forearms is what Tiffany Bird thinks is a held ball.

OT 3:28 (Sorry, but this one was too obvious!)  During play, the LSU coach is apparently on the court so far that she sticks her hand in front of the ref who is trying to watch the play.

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RE: WBB: Stanford @ LSU, Thu Dec 5 6pm, preview and game thread - oldalum - 12-07-2024

Based on the rule: "When the dribble is ended on one foot (this is the pivot foot) and the player holding the ball steps with the free foot, lifts the pivot foot and then returns the pivot foot to the playing court while still in control of the ball, this is a traveling violation."
I think a more precise version of your statement would be:

(12-07-2024, 09:07 AM)M T Wrote:  Q2 6:20 LSU player ends her dribble with her right foot on the floor, She steps with her left foot, making her right foot the pivot foot. . . . 

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - M T - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 09:22 AM)martyup Wrote:  Those bad and missed calls were very frustrating.  What was also frustrating was that we had the game in the bag to the extent that many LSU fans were leaving the building.  Then we let them steal the game from us.

The ones that stole the game were the refs.  You don't make that many mistakes if you are diligent.  The rule book is clear, but the refs are choosing to interpret the rules differently than they are instructed to.   I'm not saying they are dishonest, but I am saying they seem to be negligent.

Why I don't like Mulkey:
  Basketball is a game.  Play within the rules and keep a level playing field.  Respect your opponent.
  I don't think Mulkey plays by the rules unless she is forced to. She seems to bully the refs (and, I suspect her players), judging by the antics we see on court.

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(12-07-2024, 09:25 AM)oldalum Wrote:  Based on the rule: "When the dribble is ended on one foot (this is the pivot foot) and the player holding the ball steps with the free foot, lifts the pivot foot and then returns the pivot foot to the playing court while still in control of the ball, this is a traveling violation."
I think a more accurate version of your statement would be:

(12-07-2024, 09:07 AM)M T Wrote:  Q2 6:20 LSU player ends her dribble with her right foot on the floor, She steps with her left foot, making her right foot the pivot foot. . . . 

Technically, that quotation is not a rule, but is stated in the rule book as a Point of Emphasis. However, it is simpler to understand than the actual rules.

Actually, you can end your dribble on one foot, and then execute a jump stop (jump off that foot and land on both feet simultaneously). At that point, neither foot is a pivot foot.  The foot that was down at the end of the dribble was never a pivot foot.  It is only the step with the other foot that makes the first foot a pivot foot. My awkward wording was intended to indicate that the player did not execute a jump stop.

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - martyup - 12-07-2024

Thank you MT for the great illustrations of the poor officiating that took place in our game against LSU.  As much as it sucks to have lost this game, it was great to see that we have the talent and coaching to play so well against a legitimate top 5 team.  I didn't expect our team to be competitive on the road against LSU.  They clearly had better athletes, but we played better as a team and had a better game plan.  I don't think that it is reasonable to expect our team to win a NC this season, but we should be competitive in most games and will most likely end up with a respectable record.

I don't think any team will look forward to playing Stanford.  FEAR THE ThREE!

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - M T - 12-07-2024

My apologies if people felt I was insulting to Jonnyss or his comments in my post on Friday evening.  I didn't mean to sound that way.  I meant what I said factually: whatever rules & interpretations that are in other leagues (even NCAA Mens) don't apply.  I apologize if I wasn't clear.  In particular, I apologize to Jonnyss, who has been a valued contributor here.

The page he linked to starts with an example of a NBA-allowed move (false start on a FT) that would be a violation under "NFHS rules" that are the subject of the page. The page's author is a New Jersey State Basketball rules interpreter.   The actual NFHS rules regarding fake FT or fake violations aren't stated, making it impossible to compare to the NCAA WBB rules.

Jonnyss also pointed out a number of bad or missed calls by the refs (including for Mulkey's behavior).  I appreciate that he noticed and highlighted these too.  I hope my post with all the calls that should have been done differently covers what he reported (and in particular, the two "held balls").

(One thing though, while Mulkey was often on the court, I never saw her go beyond the end of the coaching box at the 38' line (which is only 9' from the center line) except maybe very late in the game.  She did often go beyond the 28' line marking the end of the team bench area.)

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - crackpot - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 09:39 AM)M T Wrote:  Why I don't like Mulkey:
  Basketball is a game.  Play within the rules and keep a level playing field.  Respect your opponent.
  I don't think Mulkey plays by the rules unless she is forced to. She seems to bully the refs (and, I suspect her players), judging by the antics we see on court.

This. This has been her M.O. for years and it works. None of them want to be in the Mulkey clipfest.

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Anybody have a good link for box scores? I hate the new GoStanford site for many reasons, one of which is the exclusion of the refs from the box scores.

When I see Brenda Pantoja reffing one of our games, depending on the opponent this could be a good thing or bad thing--she favors guards, but tends to ignore a lot.

I think Tiffany Bird has been the ref for majority of our recent losses (or games that were closer than they should have been), but I haven't been able to prove it to myself.

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - oldalum - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 11:09 AM)crackpot Wrote:  

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Anybody have a good link for box scores? I hate the new GoStanford site for many reasons, one of which is the exclusion of the refs from the box scores.

this box score at gostanford.com has the refs at the top right
LSU box score link to Gostanford.com

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - jonnyss - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 10:12 AM)M T Wrote:  My apologies if people felt I was insulting to Jonnyss or his comments in my post on Friday evening.  I didn't mean to sound that way.  I meant what I said factually: whatever rules & interpretations that are in other leagues (even NCAA Mens) don't apply.  I apologize if I wasn't clear.  In particular, I apologize to Jonnyss, who has been a valued contributor here.

The page he linked to starts with an example of a NBA-allowed move (false start on a FT) that would be a violation under "NFHS rules" that are the subject of the page. The page's author is a New Jersey State Basketball rules interpreter.   The actual NFHS rules regarding fake FT or fake violations aren't stated, making it impossible to compare to the NCAA WBB rules.

Jonnyss also pointed out a number of bad or missed calls by the refs (including for Mulkey's behavior).  I appreciate that he noticed and highlighted these too.  I hope my post with all the calls that should have been done differently covers what he reported (and in particular, the two "held balls").

(One thing though, while Mulkey was often on the court, I never saw her go beyond the end of the coaching box at the 38' line (which is only 9' from the center line) except maybe very late in the game.  She did often go beyond the 28' line marking the end of the team bench area.)

thank you!

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - here4WBB - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 09:39 AM)M T Wrote:  

(12-07-2024, 09:22 AM)martyup Wrote:  Those bad and missed calls were very frustrating.  What was also frustrating was that we had the game in the bag to the extent that many LSU fans were leaving the building.  Then we let them steal the game from us.

The ones that stole the game were the refs.  You don't make that many mistakes if you are diligent.  The rule book is clear, but the refs are choosing to interpret the rules differently than they are instructed to.   I'm not saying they are dishonest, but I am saying they seem to be negligent.

Why I don't like Mulkey:
  Basketball is a game.  Play within the rules and keep a level playing field.  Respect your opponent.
  I don't think Mulkey plays by the rules unless she is forced to. She seems to bully the refs (and, I suspect her players), judging by the antics we see on court.

Re. Mulkey (and Geno and other coaches that harass the referees and coach from the sidelines) - I think the yelling, arguing and physical antics distract the refs and break their concentration and focus - and that Mulkey counts on that as a defensive tactic.

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - TonyLima - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 09:56 AM)martyup Wrote:  Thank you MT for the great illustrations of the poor officiating that took place in our game against LSU.  As much as it sucks to have lost this game, it was great to see that we have the talent and coaching to play so well against a legitimate top 5 team.  I didn't expect our team to be competitive on the road against LSU.  They clearly had better athletes, but we played better as a team and had a better game plan.  I don't think that it is reasonable to expect our team to win a NC this season, but we should be competitive in most games and will most likely end up with a respectable record.

I don't think any team will look forward to playing Stanford.  FEAR THE ThREE!

Echoing the thanks to MT. Lots of great work!

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - BostonCard - 12-07-2024

By the way, unlike the men, the ACC women acquitted themselves pretty well in the SEC/ACC challenge.  In addition to us taking LSU to overtime:
North Carolina beat Kentucky in a matchup of two ranked teams (Kentucky was nominally ranked higher)
Notre Dame beat Texas (Texas was also ranked higher after Notre Dame lost a couple games)
NC State beat #18 Ole Miss
Cal upset #19 Alabama
Duke lost to #3 South Carolina
and on Wed. Louisville lost to Oklahoma.

So the ACC went 4-3, though the SEC team was ranked higher in all the matches.

BC

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76lsjumb - 76lsjumb - 12-07-2024

I hope Coach Paye was watching the end of the men’s game today. That is how you play defense in the last 30 seconds when you’re trying to protect a dwindling lead. Guard the inbounds pass (or, at a minimum, contest it briefly before sprinting back); don’t let the other team roll the ball up the court all the way past the halfcourt line.

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - BostonCard - 12-07-2024

I saw that, but I also saw Cal take less than a second to get the ball into the frontcourt from the second we forced them to pick it up.  A good team can advance the ball quickly.
BC

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76lsjumb - 76lsjumb - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 05:07 PM)BostonCard Wrote:  I saw that, but I also saw Cal take less than a second to get the ball into the frontcourt from the second we forced them to pick it up.  A good team can advance the ball quickly.
BC

Not the second time. We stole it and scored.

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - BostonCard - 12-07-2024

I said “a good team”.  LSU is a good team; Cal is not.

BC

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - crackpot - 12-07-2024

(12-07-2024, 11:44 AM)oldalum Wrote:  

(12-07-2024, 11:09 AM)crackpot Wrote:  

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Anybody have a good link for box scores? I hate the new GoStanford site for many reasons, one of which is the exclusion of the refs from the box scores.

this box score at gostanford.com has the refs at the top right
LSU box score link to Gostanford.com

Nice, thanks! Care to share how you got there? Selecting the box score in the schedule doesn't get me there. And I was hoping to look at the ones from the last couple of seasons (which displayed in full prior to this re-design).

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RE: WBB: LSU 94 Stanford 88 OT - TonyLima - 12-07-2024

crackpot dateline='[url=tel:1733594982' Wrote:  1733594982[/url]']

M T dateline='[url=tel:1733589582' Wrote:  1733589582[/url]']
Why I don't like Mulkey:
  Basketball is a game.  Play within the rules and keep a level playing field.  Respect your opponent.
  I don't think Mulkey plays by the rules unless she is forced to. She seems to bully the refs (and, I suspect her players), judging by the antics we see on court.

This. This has been her M.O. for years and it works. None of them want to be in the Mulkey clipfest.

---

Anybody have a good link for box scores? I hate the new GoStanford site for many reasons, one of which is the exclusion of the refs from the box scores.

When I see Brenda Pantoja reffing one of our games, depending on the opponent this could be a good thing or bad thing--she favors guards, but tends to ignore a lot.

I think Tiffany Bird has been the ref for majority of our recent losses (or games that were closer than they should have been), but I haven't been able to prove it to myself.

For those of you wondering why Tiffany and Missy are still refereeing, Brandon Cooper was an umpire in a recent baseball College Worl Series. Here’s a blast from the past.

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