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DAWKINS WATCH - Printable Version

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Re: DAWKINS WATCH - StanFan88 - 04-02-2013

I spoke my piece on Dawkins - both via email and in a nearly 30-minute phone conversation with Muir (he called me after I emailed him in early Feb).  My takeaway is that his decision is based on two factors, both of which I wholeheartedly disagree with:

- Stanford was close to winning a number of games.  While true, Dawkins' career record in games decided by 5 pts or fewer is 13-31 and has never been above .500 in any season.  So it wasn't a surprise that Stanford was 3-6 this year (2-6 pre-NIT).  IMnsHO the consistent inability to win close games is the number one reason Stanford has not made the NCAAs or finished in the top half of the Pac-12 during Dawkins' tenure.

- Stanford doesn't match up talent-wise with the top teams.  First, I call complete BS on this one, but more importantly, whether it does or not doesn't matter when evaluating the head coach.  If the talent isn't there (contrary to the past), then the blame falls to Dawkins for poor recruiting.  If the talent is there, then the blame falls to Dawkins for not getting enough out of it.

I am very torn about renewing my basketball season tickets.  Part of me has no confidence that next year's team is going to make the NCAAs, in which case I am making a one-year investment toward a better future.  My concern is that the opposite happens:  Dawkins does get us to the NCAAs, stays on, and after the uber-class leaves the team reverts to mediocrity for another 3-4 years until Muir fires him.  I have little hope that Dawkins can re-fill the cupboard in next year's recruiting season given the ultimatum Muir has given him.

I think Muir is going to lose at least 500 season ticket seats, and possibly 1,000.  That adds up to a bigger cost than buying out Dawkins' contract.  Just not sure yet if he's going to lose mine.

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - StanFan88 - 04-02-2013

I spoke my piece on Dawkins - both via email and in a nearly 30-minute phone conversation with Muir (he called me after I emailed him in early Feb).  My takeaway is that his decision is based on two factors, both of which I wholeheartedly disagree with:

- Stanford was close to winning a number of games.  While true, Dawkins' career record in games decided by 5 pts or fewer is 13-31 and has never been above .500 in any season.  So it wasn't a surprise that Stanford was 3-6 this year (2-6 pre-NIT).  IMnsHO the consistent inability to win close games is the number one reason Stanford has not made the NCAAs or finished in the top half of the Pac-12 during Dawkins' tenure.

- Stanford doesn't match up talent-wise with the top teams.  First, I call complete BS on this one, but more importantly, whether it does or not doesn't matter when evaluating the head coach.  If the talent isn't there (contrary to the past), then the blame falls to Dawkins for poor recruiting.  If the talent is there, then the blame falls to Dawkins for not getting enough out of it.

I am very torn about renewing my basketball season tickets.  Part of me has no confidence that next year's team is going to make the NCAAs, in which case I am making a one-year investment toward a better future.  My concern is that the opposite happens:  Dawkins does get us to the NCAAs, stays on, and after the uber-class leaves the team reverts to mediocrity for another 3-4 years until Muir fires him.  I have little hope that Dawkins can re-fill the cupboard in next year's recruiting season given the ultimatum Muir has given him.

I think Muir is going to lose at least 500 season ticket seats, and possibly 1,000.  That adds up to a bigger cost than buying out Dawkins' contract.  Just not sure yet if he's going to lose mine.

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - Farm93 - 04-02-2013

Ironically, I thought about my B-Ball experiences this morning after learning about the FGC thing.

I remember the first time I moved down to the OC, it killed me that I could not attend basketball games.  And I literally worked diligently to get my career back to the SF Bay Area after I realized how much I missed going to Maples between November and March.  And more importantly from an AD perspective, I kept my season tickets and sold them to my Maples neighbors while I was away.  They were thrilled to buy the tickets because there was no way to get new season tickets near existing season tickets at that time.  Oh, the good ole days.

This time when I moved down, I had no concerns at all about missing men's hoops.  When the AD called about my lapse in ticket renewals I mentioned that I had moved.  They accepted that answer, but there was more to the story.  I probably would have renewed if I really thought the tickets were precious or if I had any Maples neighbors that I thought would buy my seats.  With JD at the healm the tickets are not precious and there is not a need for anyone to buy tickets from me because there are thousands available from the ticket office.

The good news?  At least for the moment I can live carefree in the OC with the knowledge that I am not missing a future NCAA Final Four quality team.   

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - Farm93 - 04-02-2013

Ironically, I thought about my B-Ball experiences this morning after learning about the FGC thing.

I remember the first time I moved down to the OC, it killed me that I could not attend basketball games.  And I literally worked diligently to get my career back to the SF Bay Area after I realized how much I missed going to Maples between November and March.  And more importantly from an AD perspective, I kept my season tickets and sold them to my Maples neighbors while I was away.  They were thrilled to buy the tickets because there was no way to get new season tickets near existing season tickets at that time.  Oh, the good ole days.

This time when I moved down, I had no concerns at all about missing men's hoops.  When the AD called about my lapse in ticket renewals I mentioned that I had moved.  They accepted that answer, but there was more to the story.  I probably would have renewed if I really thought the tickets were precious or if I had any Maples neighbors that I thought would buy my seats.  With JD at the healm the tickets are not precious and there is not a need for anyone to buy tickets from me because there are thousands available from the ticket office.

The good news?  At least for the moment I can live carefree in the OC with the knowledge that I am not missing a future NCAA Final Four quality team.   

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - Spiny_Norman - 04-02-2013

(04-02-2013, 08:39 AM)StanFan88 link Wrote:I spoke my piece on Dawkins - both via email and in a nearly 30-minute phone conversation with Muir (he called me after I emailed him in early Feb). 

Welcome, StanFan88!  Based on the tepid discussion of the men's hoops team during the season, you may be the most passionate MBB fan on the board.  The Civil War seems to generate more interest.

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - Spiny_Norman - 04-02-2013

(04-02-2013, 08:39 AM)StanFan88 link Wrote:I spoke my piece on Dawkins - both via email and in a nearly 30-minute phone conversation with Muir (he called me after I emailed him in early Feb). 

Welcome, StanFan88!  Based on the tepid discussion of the men's hoops team during the season, you may be the most passionate MBB fan on the board.  The Civil War seems to generate more interest.

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - yvonne - 04-02-2013

(04-02-2013, 08:39 AM)StanFan88 link Wrote:My concern is that the opposite happens:  Dawkins does get us to the NCAAs, stays on, and after the uber-class leaves the team reverts to mediocrity for another 3-4 years until Muir fires him.  I have little hope that Dawkins can re-fill the cupboard in next year's recruiting season given the ultimatum Muir has given him.

I think Muir is going to lose at least 500 season ticket seats, and possibly 1,000.  That adds up to a bigger cost than buying out Dawkins' contract.  Just not sure yet if he's going to lose mine.

This is my concern too. Given that Muir has already sent the message that his sole requirement is the NCAA and competing for the championship, it's clear he has a low bar and will accept the drop in production the following year. After all, Stanford won't have the talent when the senior graduate, will it?

It's pretty clear that we need to address our complaints to Etchemendy.

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - yvonne - 04-02-2013

(04-02-2013, 08:39 AM)StanFan88 link Wrote:My concern is that the opposite happens:  Dawkins does get us to the NCAAs, stays on, and after the uber-class leaves the team reverts to mediocrity for another 3-4 years until Muir fires him.  I have little hope that Dawkins can re-fill the cupboard in next year's recruiting season given the ultimatum Muir has given him.

I think Muir is going to lose at least 500 season ticket seats, and possibly 1,000.  That adds up to a bigger cost than buying out Dawkins' contract.  Just not sure yet if he's going to lose mine.

This is my concern too. Given that Muir has already sent the message that his sole requirement is the NCAA and competing for the championship, it's clear he has a low bar and will accept the drop in production the following year. After all, Stanford won't have the talent when the senior graduate, will it?

It's pretty clear that we need to address our complaints to Etchemendy.

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - yvonne - 04-02-2013

I saw that today on the Chronicle site, of all places. The saddest part of it all is that the president is only considering firing him. What's to consider? smh

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - yvonne - 04-02-2013

I saw that today on the Chronicle site, of all places. The saddest part of it all is that the president is only considering firing him. What's to consider? smh

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - pincemob - 04-02-2013

I am starting to believe that Muir believes Madsen is our Fred Hoiberg, but feels he needs a little more seasoning.  He may realize Dawkins has failed but may not want to bring in a new guy that changes the long-term (Madsen) plan/ timeline.  Just speculation on my part but given Shaw's success I could see the desire to go with an alum. 

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - pincemob - 04-02-2013

I am starting to believe that Muir believes Madsen is our Fred Hoiberg, but feels he needs a little more seasoning.  He may realize Dawkins has failed but may not want to bring in a new guy that changes the long-term (Madsen) plan/ timeline.  Just speculation on my part but given Shaw's success I could see the desire to go with an alum. 

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - 76lsjumb - 04-02-2013

Random thoughts: 

1)  To be sure, if Muir's going to spend time telephoning fans to discuss at length the state of men's basketball [and, apparently he is, given that StanFan88's is not the first such conversation reported here], I fully believe that CARDboard posters are the fans with whom he should be speaking.  That being said, though, I'm thinking perhaps he might be better off spending his time doing something else..., like, say, drawing up that list of potential basketball coach prospects that I was really, really, really hoping [mistakenly, it appears] he had already put together by about mid-season.  And, if he really is going to go with someone already having Stanford connections [e.g., Madsen], then it really does become a mystery as to why he was hired.  I had always assumed his primary asset would be the basketball connections he had from his time at Georgetown.  Now, i don't know what to think.

2)  I will stipulate that it's never really "appropriate" for a coach to push one of his players, but, if there's a "push spectrum," it seems to me that the two ends of that spectrum have been pretty well defined in the past several weeks by, respectively, Monty and Mike Rice.  [There is no truth to the rumor, however, that Mike Leach ordered a copy of the Rutgers tape thinking it was a training techniques video.]

3)  Now that we know how much a technical foul on Sean Miller costs, will the Pac-12 be issuing a Price List for ALL of the coaches?

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - 76lsjumb - 04-02-2013

Random thoughts: 

1)  To be sure, if Muir's going to spend time telephoning fans to discuss at length the state of men's basketball [and, apparently he is, given that StanFan88's is not the first such conversation reported here], I fully believe that CARDboard posters are the fans with whom he should be speaking.  That being said, though, I'm thinking perhaps he might be better off spending his time doing something else..., like, say, drawing up that list of potential basketball coach prospects that I was really, really, really hoping [mistakenly, it appears] he had already put together by about mid-season.  And, if he really is going to go with someone already having Stanford connections [e.g., Madsen], then it really does become a mystery as to why he was hired.  I had always assumed his primary asset would be the basketball connections he had from his time at Georgetown.  Now, i don't know what to think.

2)  I will stipulate that it's never really "appropriate" for a coach to push one of his players, but, if there's a "push spectrum," it seems to me that the two ends of that spectrum have been pretty well defined in the past several weeks by, respectively, Monty and Mike Rice.  [There is no truth to the rumor, however, that Mike Leach ordered a copy of the Rutgers tape thinking it was a training techniques video.]

3)  Now that we know how much a technical foul on Sean Miller costs, will the Pac-12 be issuing a Price List for ALL of the coaches?

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - Bruce Wang - 04-03-2013

In retrospect, bringing in Ray Lewis to fire up the team to play inspired basketball was a red flag.  An indication that Dawkins, himself, realizes he can't make a locker room speech.

This is another reason why I think Mad Dog is the solution here.

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - Bruce Wang - 04-03-2013

In retrospect, bringing in Ray Lewis to fire up the team to play inspired basketball was a red flag.  An indication that Dawkins, himself, realizes he can't make a locker room speech.

This is another reason why I think Mad Dog is the solution here.

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - StanFan88 - 04-03-2013

(04-02-2013, 09:32 AM)garvin link Wrote:Well-said on your part, StanFan88. And very discouraging, on Muir's part. I suspect we're going to live out the three remaining years on Dawkins' contract. My worst nightmare is that he makes the tournament next year and gets another extension. It seems as if Muir regards Stanford's days as an eminent basketball program as something from ancient history, relevant only in a museum context.

I'd have to disagree with you about Muir's thinking our days as an upper echelon basketball program are over and that it's OK.  I think he genuinely believes that Stanford was close to making the NCAAs, and while injuries are no excuse, had Anthony Brown been at the 3 instead of Andy Brown, that may have been the difference.  And I don't think he accepts mediocrity, but the jury is still out on that front based on his decision to retain mediocrity at head coach.

I think Dawkins could be a fantastic assistant coach.  But his downfall seems to be those things that make a good head coach - Xs & Os, substitution patterns, etc.  Things the head guy decides.  I think he has a ton of knowledge to impart, and in terms of character he's the kind of person I'd be happy to have my kid play for if he were a basketball player.

But I think Maddog has just as much knowledge to impart, having played for the G.O.A.T. Phil Jackson for several years.

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - StanFan88 - 04-03-2013

(04-02-2013, 09:32 AM)garvin link Wrote:Well-said on your part, StanFan88. And very discouraging, on Muir's part. I suspect we're going to live out the three remaining years on Dawkins' contract. My worst nightmare is that he makes the tournament next year and gets another extension. It seems as if Muir regards Stanford's days as an eminent basketball program as something from ancient history, relevant only in a museum context.

I'd have to disagree with you about Muir's thinking our days as an upper echelon basketball program are over and that it's OK.  I think he genuinely believes that Stanford was close to making the NCAAs, and while injuries are no excuse, had Anthony Brown been at the 3 instead of Andy Brown, that may have been the difference.  And I don't think he accepts mediocrity, but the jury is still out on that front based on his decision to retain mediocrity at head coach.

I think Dawkins could be a fantastic assistant coach.  But his downfall seems to be those things that make a good head coach - Xs & Os, substitution patterns, etc.  Things the head guy decides.  I think he has a ton of knowledge to impart, and in terms of character he's the kind of person I'd be happy to have my kid play for if he were a basketball player.

But I think Maddog has just as much knowledge to impart, having played for the G.O.A.T. Phil Jackson for several years.

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - washingtonismoney - 04-03-2013

Obviously it's much too soon for any Madsen speculation. However, if Madsen was the primary guy responsible for developing Huestis and Powell, then he did a very solid job there -- they were, after all, the only players who really improved between 11-12 and 12-13.

Re: DAWKINS WATCH - washingtonismoney - 04-03-2013

Obviously it's much too soon for any Madsen speculation. However, if Madsen was the primary guy responsible for developing Huestis and Powell, then he did a very solid job there -- they were, after all, the only players who really improved between 11-12 and 12-13.