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Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Mick - 12-30-2016

(12-29-2016, 11:46 AM)VFRing98 link Wrote:[quote author=Mick link=topic=16303.msg183849#msg183849 date=1482993147]
[quote author=VFRing98 link=topic=16303.msg183848#msg183848 date=1482989359]
Clever, except I don't see how a story about a key member of a company leaving for another gig does anything except show that's how the real world works, which is what I was trying to say.

Circular logic.  That's the point I made in the first place.
Quote:I've worked with several Stanford students and recent grads in an internship setting, and have interviewed others for more permanent positions, and to a person this kind of experience would have been valuable to them. It's not that I am belittling Stanford students; they have all been smart, thoughtful, often well-qualified, and unbloodied.

Obviously, every recent grad, Stanford or otherwise, needs to have the baby fat of naivete burned off.  Look at the 53% preponderance of 18-24 year olds who (Reason-Rupe survey) believe in socialism compared with the 25% of old farts like me who believe in socialism.

Quote:Heck, I've been in the workforce 20 years and am still learning things. Aren't you?

I've been in the workforce for 40 years.  Yes, of course I still learn things.  But I was referencing a specific lesson, the lesson that a key person quits before the job is done.  You're just talking about learning in general.  My point is that this lesson comes a lot earlier in life.  The star of our 8th grade basketball team walked out before the playoffs in a dispute with the coach, or if we want to get a little maudlin, my old man walked out when I was seven.  And my story isn't special or unique in the slightest, I doubt that CMAC's quitting is the first time any of his teammates experienced a crucial teammate quitting before the job was done.

Quote:How's this: you are interviewing a member of this year's team for a job at your company several years from now. Are you more interested in what he has to say about how he dealt with the adversity of the star player leaving before the bowl game, or, in an alternate universe, about how they all rode Christian's coattails to a Sun Bowl win?

I don't give two sxxts about how they dealt with the adversity of someone other than them leaving, because that's not real adversity.  McCaffrey's departure doesn't affect the defense, the OL's blocking adjusts slightly for Love or Scarlett, pass blocking doesn't change much.  The QB will have something to say about it, but that's one guy.  If I'm interviewing a Stanford football player, that's a peripheral issue.  My questions would focus on how they contributed, how they learned, how they failed and improved, how they got along with other team members, or if we really wanted to talk about adversity, how they dealt with a terrible position coach or a professor who had it out for them.

Or how's this: you're 16 or 17 and filling out a Stanford application or an SCU application or the application of virtually every four year college on the face of the planet, and the question is some variant of "How have you dealt with adversity..."  Every single answer of every single admitted Stanford student will reflect a heckuva lot more adversity than "I worked on a group project and our smartest member quit a week before it was due."  And every single answer will be some variant of "I sucked it up" coupled with "here's the amazing thing(s) I did to combat that adversity."
[/quote]

Baloney, grade A baloney. So thick there's really nowhere to start. Nice pretzel logic, though.
[/quote]

ROTFLMAO.  About what I'd expected you to say.  Here, let me summarize your end of the discussion...

[Image: 5a65f330ded9013171bc005056a9545d]

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - BurgXXIII - 01-13-2017

So we now have some better inside information on the decision. Ed McCaffery pointed specifically to Christian's two year workload (more touches than anyone else in D1 football?). I think it's reasonable to infer some level of discomfort with the design of the offense.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - DC 86 - 01-13-2017

(01-13-2017, 02:51 PM)BurgXXIII link Wrote:So we now have some better inside information on the decision. Ed McCaffery pointed specifically to Christian's two year workload (more touches than anyone else in D1 football?). I think it's reasonable to infer some level of discomfort with the design of the offense.
That was  not my interpretation, I thought the references to his touches and being a workhorse were 1) reminders that he had contributed a lot to the team over the past two years, 2) a suggestion that he needed to recover physically from a high workload.

Interesting (although brief interview) which makes clear to me that as suspected Ed was strongly influential in the decision and that the overwhelming reason for bypassing the bowl game was avoiding major injury.

Here is the link so that everyone can make their own interpretations:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafbvideos/ed-mccaffrey-on-bowl-drama-around-his-son/vi-AAlQ9Tr?refvid=AAlQ9Tr

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - jacketree - 01-13-2017

Quick interpretations:

CMAC could have played and would have played if his teammates asked him to.

Figured they didn't need him to beat UNC.

Sun Bowl, opponent, and Stanford's own ranking a bit of a letdown; almost certainly would have played in a NY6 game.

After being such a workhorse, basically he had had enough.

Under-insured. Truly afraid of getting hurt and tossing serious coin away.


Briefly mentioned at the beginning: Dylan McCaffrey is not playing at Stanford or even Duke.  Michigan.  Big time program, but what is the backstory on a lack of Stanford interest?  Any family bitterness?

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - fullmetal - 01-13-2017

I guess Shaw wanted Davis Mills over Dylan McCaffrey.  I imagine that was a blow to Ed and Lisa.  Who knows whether this got personal or whether it was just business.

I don't think any amount of insurance could have truly covered the cumulative monetary loss that CMac would have suffered from an ACL on the Sun Bowl FieldTurf.

I do think his dad weighed in heavily with the decision, and perhaps only hearing his name called in the first round will assuage the regret or guilt of missing out on his final chance to stand with his Stanford brothers on the field.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Mick - 01-13-2017

(01-13-2017, 03:09 PM)DC 86 link Wrote:[quote author=BurgXXIII link=topic=16303.msg186321#msg186321 date=1484344270]
So we now have some better inside information on the decision. Ed McCaffery pointed specifically to Christian's two year workload (more touches than anyone else in D1 football?). I think it's reasonable to infer some level of discomfort with the design of the offense.
That was  not my interpretation, I thought the references to his touches and being a workhorse were 1) reminders that he had contributed a lot to the team over the past two years, 2) a suggestion that he needed to recover physically from a high workload.

Interesting (although brief interview) which makes clear to me that as suspected Ed was strongly influential in the decision and that the overwhelming reason for bypassing the bowl game was avoiding major injury.

Here is the link so that everyone can make their own interpretations:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafbvideos/ed-mccaffrey-on-bowl-drama-around-his-son/vi-AAlQ9Tr?refvid=AAlQ9Tr
[/quote]


To me, the most interesting part is that Ed McCaffrey said his son sat out because he didn't want to get injured and forfeit $18 million.  That's an odd number to pull out of the air, particularly given the tone of his responses to the interview questions.  So I looked it up...that's what the #7 pick in the draft gets.  So I'm operating on the assumption that the McCaffreys think Christian will go around #7 in the first round.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafbvideos/ed-mccaffrey-on-bowl-drama-around-his-son/vi-AAlQ9Tr?refvid=AAlQ9Tr

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Papa John - 01-13-2017

Appreciate that someone from the CMac entourage is speaking up, but this quote from Ed McCaffrey made me role my eyes: "It's unfortunate that [Christian] was put in this position."

Say what?

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Farm93 - 01-14-2017

(01-13-2017, 09:59 PM)Papa John link Wrote:Appreciate that someone from the CMac entourage is speaking up, but this quote from Ed McCaffrey made me role my eyes: "It's unfortunate that [Christian] was put in this position."

Say what?
Hmmm, maybe that the insurance policy for Christian did not cover him as a top 10 draft pick, but rather as a 2nd or 3rd round pick.  The insurance policy was inadequate putting him in this position to protect his under insured body.

Alternatively, any number of possibilities are possible.  CMAC was allowed to leave, but not allowed to comment on the decision or the team's take or whatever.  So he honored the program's request to be brief, but then felt like the school did very little to defend CMAC's actions.

In the end, this is easy.  CMAC mad a business decision based on his body, his family's collective knowledge about the NFL, and perhaps even some understanding that multiple teams in the first round will draft him in the first round if he is healthy. 

We continue to have incomplete information, so easier to move on and assume that CMAC and company were making a sensible choice.  A choice that the coaches understood and the players (apparently) supported.


Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Mick - 01-14-2017

(01-14-2017, 12:32 AM)Farm93 link Wrote:We continue to have incomplete information, so easier to move on and assume that CMAC and company were making a sensible choice.  A choice that the coaches understood and the players (apparently) supported.

Is it incomplete information?  At least as it pertains to his decision?  I'd say his father's statements round out our understanding pretty well.  CMAC made a by-definition selfish decision, he cleared it with about 1/7 of his teammates (What were they going to say?) he told the coaches he was quitting on them and his teammates with the last game of the season to go, his Dad implied that CMAC was underinsured to injury, and Ed claimed that had he been injured, he would have forfeited $18 million, which is the equivalent of a #7 pick.  No one is claiming CMAC is injured, so he's obviously healthy.  CMAC did not come out and say I was afraid of getting injured, he came out and said he wanted to prepare for the NFL draft, because, you know, you can't prepare for it by practicing and playing football with the Stanford team for two weeks when the combine is twelve weeks away.

Sounds like fairly complete information to me.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - GoodGrief - 01-14-2017

Quote:To me, the most interesting part is that Ed McCaffrey said his son sat out because he didn't want to get injured and forfeit $18 million.  That's an odd number to pull out of the air, particularly given the tone of his responses to the interview questions.  So I looked it up...that's what the #7 pick in the draft gets.  So I'm operating on the assumption that the McCaffreys think Christian will go around #7 in the first round.

Since you posted this same opinion in two threads, I'll repeat my response


No Mick, you're misunderstanding what Ed means and vastly underestimating the McCaffrey family's NFL connections and savvy. Ed's referring to ND's Jaylon Smith's draft plummet after he got injured playing in a bowl game. Jaylon had been a consensus top-5 pick (5th pick was guaranteed $23.5 million) but after the injury was picked 34th for a guaranteed contract of $4.4 million). That's the $18 million figure that Ed was referencing.

Ed cited both Jaylon Smith and Chryst, both of which are very solid examples of why it may be prudent to sit out the bowl game.


And as long as I'm responding to posts, BurgXXIII's conjecture that mccaffrey had a problem with the offensive strategy seems really off. Ed cited that CMac had the most touches in college football to illustrate how hard he worked and how battered his body was, not to suggest that he didn't like the offensive play calling. Occam's razor folks.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 01-14-2017

(01-13-2017, 02:51 PM)BurgXXIII link Wrote:So we now have some better inside information on the decision. Ed McCaffery pointed specifically to Christian's two year workload (more touches than anyone else in D1 football?). I think it's reasonable to infer some level of discomfort with the design of the offense.

Sorry at this point that's just spin.  I really don't think they expected this kind of reaction because it doesn't appear that anyone inside the bubble he lived in was telling him how it might be viewed outside that bubble.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 01-14-2017

(01-13-2017, 09:59 PM)Papa John link Wrote:Appreciate that someone from the CMac entourage is speaking up, but this quote from Ed McCaffrey made me role my eyes: "It's unfortunate that [Christian] was put in this position."

Say what?

Seriously.  Christian put himself in this position through the decisions he made and has nobody to blame but himself for what's happened since.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 01-14-2017

(01-14-2017, 09:31 AM)winflop link Wrote:[quote author=Papa John link=topic=16303.msg186376#msg186376 date=1484369978]
Appreciate that someone from the CMac entourage is speaking up, but this quote from Ed McCaffrey made me role my eyes: "It's unfortunate that [Christian] was put in this position."

Say what?

Seriously.  Christian put himself in this position through the decisions he made and has nobody to blame but himself for what's happened since.
[/quote]
You are misconstruing what Ed Mccaffrey (quite explicitly, I think) said. He is not saying that Christian's decision to not play was unfortunate. He is saying that it is unfortunate that in college football the players are at risk without any compensation at all, and when an opportunity does arise, they are forced to be in the position of either protecting themselves (and possibly the risk of losing your good opinion of them)  or accepting large financial risk. The university, the NCAA, and the bowl game itself are not at risk to nearly the same extent that the individual athletes are.
Now, it is also fair to say that the athlete's skills are put on display by the university, the NCAA, and the bowl game, so it is not like they did nothing for the athlete. Ed Mccaffrey just thinks it is not a fair balance. You may disagree with this point of view, but it not without basis.
I think the current system is possibly not optimal, but so far I can't design one that I consider unquestionably better. I can't generate much pity for Christian. He is going to do what he has wanted to do since he was 6 years old, and make tons of money doing it. That is a win. The warts on the system, whatever they may be, didn't prevent him from doing real well.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Langdude - 01-14-2017

That does beg the question, though: If one skips the bowl game to avoid injury, why play in the Rice game when his value is well-established?

-m.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - winflop - 01-14-2017

(01-14-2017, 09:52 AM)Goose link Wrote:He is not saying that Christian's decision to not play was unfortunate. He is saying that it is unfortunate that in college football the players are at risk without any compensation at all, and when an opportunity does arise, they are forced to be in the position of either protecting themselves (and possibly the risk of losing your good opinion of them)  or accepting large financial risk. The university, the NCAA, and the bowl game itself are not at risk to nearly the same extent that the individual athletes are.

OK but that was known before Christian signed his LOI.  He willingly entered a system that both he and his father clearly understood.  To turn around and blame that system well after the fact rings hollow to me.  If Ed had made those statement explicitly at the time that Christian declared for the draft I might accept them as more than a well-after-the-fact attempt to explain a decision that I honestly don't think he expected would generate the reaction it did.

I lost more respect for Ed from listening to this interview than I did for Christian when he made his decision.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 01-14-2017

(01-14-2017, 10:28 AM)Langdude link Wrote:That does beg the question, though: If one skips the bowl game to avoid injury, why play in the Rice game when his value is well-established?

-m.
True. Every game has a risk-reward evaluation, as does crossing the street. It just depends on how you evaluate the options. That is usually pretty subjective for each individual. I suspect we will see players elect to set out their entire junior year and declare for the draft at the end of the season. We have already seen players who were injured during the year not come back (when they could have) and declare for the draft. Not saying I like it or agree with it, but it is clearly an option for some.
I don't know why CM chose to play in the Rice game. I suspect he just didn't think about it, and regarded it as a given. I also suspect, but don't know, that he hadn't fully decided to declare for the draft at that point. That does alter the loss equation. It also could be that he thought (probably erroneously) the Rice game could alter the team's bowl game destination. More calculatingly, possibly he felt (correctly IMHO) that he could absorb the PR hit from the Sun Bowl much more easily than for a "regular season" game. Or maybe his dad told him he should play in the Rice game and not the Sun Bowl and he just did that.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Langdude - 01-14-2017

(01-14-2017, 10:53 AM)Goose link Wrote:[quote author=Langdude link=topic=16303.msg186407#msg186407 date=1484414881]
That does beg the question, though: If one skips the bowl game to avoid injury, why play in the Rice game when his value is well-established?

-m.
True. Every game has a risk-reward evaluation, as does crossing the street. It just depends on how you evaluate the options. That is usually pretty subjective for each individual. I suspect we will see players elect to set out their entire junior year and declare for the draft at the end of the season. We have already seen players who were injured during the year not come back (when they could have) and declare for the draft. Not saying I like it or agree with it, but it is clearly an option for some.
I don't know why CM chose to play in the Rice game. I suspect he just didn't think about it, and regarded it as a given. I also suspect, but don't know, that he hadn't fully decided to declare for the draft at that point. That does alter the loss equation. It also could be that he thought (probably erroneously) the Rice game could alter the team's bowl game destination. More calculatingly, possibly he felt (correctly IMHO) that he could absorb the PR hit from the Sun Bowl much more easily than for a "regular season" game. Or maybe his dad told him he should play in the Rice game and not the Sun Bowl and he just did that.
[/quote]

Good points.

-m.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - BurgXXIII - 01-14-2017

(01-14-2017, 10:28 AM)Langdude link Wrote:That does beg the question, though: If one skips the bowl game to avoid injury, why play in the Rice game when his value is well-established?

-m.

I agree with Langdude here. If injury were the big concern, as it would be, say, in the last NFL preseason game, why not suit up for the Sun Bowl, play one series, accept the accolades, and move on? Reductio ad absurdum, the logic used to skip the Sun Bowl pushes the drafting decisions back to high school performances (like the old NBA).

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - Goose - 01-14-2017

(01-14-2017, 11:55 AM)BurgXXIII link Wrote:Reductio ad absurdum, the logic used to skip the Sun Bowl pushes the drafting decisions back to high school performances (like the old NBA).
I would not be amazed if that happened. I think the only forces preventing it are 1) The NFL has so many draft misses as it is. Imagine how bad it would be if they had to consider players that were just 18 years old. and 2) The PR "look" would be bad. The way things are now, the NFL doesn't have to pay while waiting for a kid to get strong enough to play in the NFL. The also don't have to pay for as many guys who will never make it in the NFL. Otherwise, they would draft from high school with no qualms about wrecking college football.

Re: CMAC not playing in Sun Bowl?!? - FarmBoy - 01-14-2017

Between Shaw not recruiting Dylan and fan reaction to the sun bowl decision, I wonder if the McCaffrey family relationship with Stanford needs some repairs.