Outside Topic NBA Discussion - Printable Version

Outside Topic NBA Discussion - Printable Version

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RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 06-23-2023

I liked PBJ, although I thought he'd have a difficult time competing as a small forward, both on defense and around the boards. He's a pure shooter, and a good one. I worry about the injuries on his account. Is he tough enough for the NBA?

I definitely don't worry about toughness with respect to Trayce Jackson-Davis, the son of former NBA stud and Pacers power forward Dale Davis. TDP is 6'8", 240 pounds and the first NCAA player in 25 years to average 20+ points, 10+ rebounds, 4+ assists and 2.5+ blocks per game. He'll be 24 years old during the season. There were rumors he would declare for the draft after his sophomore and junior seasons, but wanted to return to Indiana to try to win an NCAA championship. I'm shocked, and Dunleavy must have been amazed that he fell to #57. And based upon TJD's tweets, he's got a chip on his shoulder for all those teams that bypassed him in the draft. The Athletic posited him as one of the players that the Warriors might take at #19.

I think Poole ended up where he belongs, where he can score 25-30 ppg, play defense when he feels like it, and be the big dog on a second division team. He'll never be on a championship team again, that's for sure.

Chris Paul? If he's bought in as a second unit point guard, and can live with seeing his minutes drop to 20-25 per game -- while hopefully being healthy enough to play in 70+ games (versus 59, like last year), then that will be optimal. His game is very different from the Warriors, so we'll see how he integrates into their offense.

Podziemski? We'll see. He's going to get a lot of playing time, based upon DiVincenzo's likely opting for free agency, Paul's and Curry's need for time off (hopefully not too much injury time) and the Warriors inability to offer anything more than the league minimum to other players. Other teams will pick on him, defensively speaking.

Green and Thompson? Change their brutal contracts into more realistic three-year deals to coincide with Curry's three year deal. I'm somewhat optimistic about Green, less so about Thompson. Based upon Thompson's public comments, I'm worried that he doesn't have a realistic view of his value. We'll see.

RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 06-23-2023

The fact Curry has 3 years left on his deal does not mean the Warriors should try to keep the original group together for 3 more years. That last year would be Curry’s age 38 season and Dray and Klay’s age 36 season, and the team would have zero financial flexibility. Forget about the playoffs let alone contending. At MOST, the team could consider two year deals for Dray and Klay, when they also have Paul on the roster too. Then figure out what to do with Curry when he’s using a walker while getting paid 60mm. Honestly, it’s foolhardy to think the Warriors would contend in that two year window anyway, but I recognize Curry holds a lot of sway and the old gang evokes enough nostalgia to make up for some underperforming.

RE: NBA Discussion - gocard14 - 06-23-2023

(06-23-2023, 04:56 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: The fact Curry has 3 years left on his deal does not mean the Warriors should try to keep the original group together for 3 more years. That last year would be Curry’s age 38 season and Dray and Klay’s age 36 season, and the team would have zero financial flexibility. Forget about the playoffs let alone contending. At MOST, the team could consider two year deals for Dray and Klay, when they also have Paul on the roster too. Then figure out what to do with Curry when he’s using a walker while getting paid 60mm. Honestly, it’s foolhardy to think the Warriors would contend in that two year window anyway, but I recognize Curry holds a lot of sway and the old gang evokes enough nostalgia to make up for some underperforming.

The warriors title window is 100% dependent on how long steph curry can play at or near his current level. Could be 0, 1, 2, 3, or more years. As long as Steph is a top 5 level player we need to keep going for it.

When steph is done it is done. There is no “two timelines” and never was unless we got a transcendent player, which thus far we haven’t. The spurs timelines worked since they drafted two top 5 players in Duncan and Leonard. Unless Kuminga somehow becomes a top 10 player in the league, we’d be better off blowing up the rest of the roster and rebuilding once it becomes clear Steph can no longer put us in contender status.

RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 06-24-2023

(06-23-2023, 11:00 PM)gocard14 Wrote:
(06-23-2023, 04:56 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: The fact Curry has 3 years left on his deal does not mean the Warriors should try to keep the original group together for 3 more years. That last year would be Curry’s age 38 season and Dray and Klay’s age 36 season, and the team would have zero financial flexibility. Forget about the playoffs let alone contending. At MOST, the team could consider two year deals for Dray and Klay, when they also have Paul on the roster too. Then figure out what to do with Curry when he’s using a walker while getting paid 60mm. Honestly, it’s foolhardy to think the Warriors would contend in that two year window anyway, but I recognize Curry holds a lot of sway and the old gang evokes enough nostalgia to make up for some underperforming.

The warriors title window is 100% dependent on how long steph curry can play at or near his current level. Could be 0, 1, 2, 3, or more years. As long as Steph is a top 5 level player we need to keep going for it.

When steph is done it is done. There is no “two timelines” and never was unless we got a transcendent player, which thus far we haven’t. The spurs timelines worked since they drafted two top 5 players in Duncan and Leonard. Unless Kuminga somehow becomes a top 10 player in the league, we’d be better off blowing up the rest of the roster and rebuilding once it becomes clear Steph can no longer put us in contender status.

Kuminga's going to have to learn to rebound. Neither Podziemski (8.8 rpg, led WCC), or Davis-Jackson (second in rebounding, 10.8 ppg) have as steep a learning curve. Kuminga actually averaged fewer rebounds per minute last season than he did the prior season. I don't get the sense that Kuminga wants to mix it up as much as the other two do.

RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 06-25-2023

(06-24-2023, 09:25 AM)Mick Wrote: Kuminga's going to have to learn to rebound. Neither Podziemski (8.8 rpg, led WCC), or Davis-Jackson (second in rebounding, 10.8 ppg) have as steep a learning curve. Kuminga actually averaged fewer rebounds per minute last season than he did the prior season. I don't get the sense that Kuminga wants to mix it up as much as the other two do.

After every game last year I checked Kuminga's rebounding numbers because it is so clearly obvious the key to his future is rebounding. My disappointment was legion.

On a related note, are any of you aware of a young player drastically increasing their rebounding numbers after two years of not doing much on the glass? As much as I like Wiseman's potential, his lack of rebounding numbers concerned me as well. My basic belief is you either have the mentality to be a rebounder or you don't. My concern is Kuminga just doesn't have it and never will, but remain hopeful he can get better at it.

RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 06-25-2023

(06-25-2023, 06:48 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:
(06-24-2023, 09:25 AM)Mick Wrote: Kuminga's going to have to learn to rebound. Neither Podziemski (8.8 rpg, led WCC), or Davis-Jackson (second in rebounding, 10.8 ppg) have as steep a learning curve. Kuminga actually averaged fewer rebounds per minute last season than he did the prior season. I don't get the sense that Kuminga wants to mix it up as much as the other two do.

After every game last year I checked Kuminga's rebounding numbers because it is so clearly obvious the key to his future is rebounding. My disappointment was legion.

On a related note, are any of you aware of a young player drastically increasing their rebounding numbers after two years of not doing much on the glass? As much as I like Wiseman's potential, his lack of rebounding numbers concerned me as well. My basic belief is you either have the mentality to be a rebounder or you don't. My concern is Kuminga just doesn't have it and never will, but remain hopeful he can get better at it.

Dennis Rodman did, going from 10.3 rebs. per 36 minutes, improving to 12.0 the next year, then jumping (no pun intended) to 16.7 at age 30 and 18.9 at age 33. Moses Malone improved early on.

Nate Thurmond had a brobdingnagian jump from year one to year two, then smaller increases the next few years. Bill Russell improved by 15% from rookie year to the next year, but he was already at 19 rpg his rookie year.

By contrast, Cliff Ray, Larry Smith and Rick Barry were flat through their careers, basically. And Joe Barely Cares steadily regressed -- not surprisingly.

RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 06-25-2023

The Warriors are where the Giants were in 2016. Maybe one last hurrah - and by that I mean a 5-8 seed playoff team. Then it’s going to be bleak for a few years. Curry is a unicorn. His ability to score with and without the ball is unique. And his level of energy at 36 is tremendous. That’s one thing Paul will bring. More use of Curry’s off ball skills.

But even Curry is not immune to time. It’s a matter of when. And the drop off could be quick. Klay is still a good player. But no longer a great player. It is a testament to him that he came back from an Achilles and ACL as well as he did. But it’s hurt him significantly on defensive end. He was an elite perimeter defender. He no longer is.

Dray is Dray. But when the Warriors were at their peak, he could get you 10 or 12 a game.

They have no real rim protector. As good as Looney is on the boards, he’s not a Bogut or even a ZaZa when it comes to protecting the rim. It wasn’t just the shot blocking. You came down the lane on Bogut (especially) and he was going to let you know he’s there. Then you could pick yourself off the floor. That physical presence is lacking. You saw that in the Laker series. Highly doubtful they get it from anyone currently on the roster.

The Poole, trade, imo, was first a salary dump and second a locker room move. No way they make that move without Curry’s input. For whatever reason, I suspect Poole lost the respect of the teammates that mattered - Curry, Dray, Klay and Looney. Why, who knows. But that was obvious to me when Draymond wasn’t suspended. And I suspect it got worse as the year progressed.

Kuminga? Well, let’s hope he’s paying attention. This team is going to ride the players that brought them 4 Championships. Accept your role. Quit pouting. Defend, rebound, provide a threat attacking the rim. But understand you are going to be, at best, the third option offensively. Poole was a much better scorer. And he didn’t fully get that when Curry is on the floor, it is his show. Chucking up 28 footers at crunch time without Curry touching the ball? No. Curry has earned that right. Poole hadn’t.

All good things end. The Warriors had a tremendous run. But I think it’s done. As a great philosopher once said : “Time waits for no one. And it won’t wait for me.”

RE: NBA Discussion - CompSci87 - 06-25-2023

Mick Jagger?

RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 06-25-2023

(06-25-2023, 01:40 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: Mick Jagger?

That’s the one!

RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 06-25-2023

(06-25-2023, 09:36 AM)lex24 Wrote: The Warriors are where the Giants were in 2016. Maybe one last hurrah - and by that I mean a 5-8 seed playoff team. Then it’s going to be bleak for a few years. Curry is a unicorn. His ability to score with and without the ball is unique. And his level of energy at 36 is tremendous. That’s one thing Paul will bring. More use of Curry’s off ball skills.

But even Curry is not immune to time. It’s a matter of when. And the drop off could be quick. Klay is still a good player. But no longer a great player. It is a testament to him that he came back from an Achilles and ACL as well as he did. But it’s hurt him significantly on defensive end. He was an elite perimeter defender. He no longer is.

Dray is Dray. But when the Warriors were at their peak, he could get you 10 or 12 a game.

They have no real rim protector. As good as Looney is on the boards, he’s not a Bogut or even a ZaZa when it comes to protecting the rim. It wasn’t just the shot blocking. You came down the lane on Bogut (especially) and he was going to let you know he’s there. Then you could pick yourself off the floor. That physical presence is lacking. You saw that in the Laker series. Highly doubtful they get it from anyone currently on the roster.

The Poole, trade, imo, was first a salary dump and second a locker room move. No way they make that move without Curry’s input. For whatever reason, I suspect Poole lost the respect of the teammates that mattered - Curry, Dray, Klay and Looney. Why, who knows. But that was obvious to me when Draymond wasn’t suspended. And I suspect it got worse as the year progressed.

Kuminga? Well, let’s hope he’s paying attention. This team is going to ride the players that brought them 4 Championships. Accept your role. Quit pouting. Defend, rebound, provide a threat attacking the rim. But understand you are going to be, at best, the third option offensively. Poole was a much better scorer. And he didn’t fully get that when Curry is on the floor, it is his show. Chucking up 28 footers at crunch time without Curry touching the ball? No. Curry has earned that right. Poole hadn’t.

All good things end. The Warriors had a tremendous run. But I think it’s done. As a great philosopher once said : “Time waits for no one. And it won’t wait for me.”

Great post, Lex. Couple of comments:

1) Poole departure had elements of salary dump, yes and locker room healing. I'd heard Poole was disrespectful both to the coaches and the other players. But it also has to be about the fact that his defense was generally iffy. His turnovers per 36 minutes doubled from 1.9 his sophomore year to 3.7 last year. His three point percentage has declined two years in a row, so has his TWO point FG percentage. Defensive rating highest (most points allowed) of his career. Offensive rating, lowest of his career. Good riddance.

2) Klay still thinks he's a great player and wants a HYOOJ extension.

3) I think the Warriors could really use Paul as a backup point guard. Methodical and slow...I think the second stringers will do better with that versus the first stringers approach.

4) JaVale McGee was a pretty good short blocker as well.

RE: NBA Discussion - g1313 - 06-25-2023

Will be interesting what the late/post-curry era looks like for the dubs. Hopefully the franchise has built enough equity to be a desirable destination. Seems more likely that we get the next star as a FA than through the draft or trade. Maybe we can pry loose a young star from a failed rebuild (Anthony Edwards? Cade Cunningham? SGA? Tyrese Haliburton?)

RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 06-25-2023

Jordan Poole reminds me of Monta Ellis and Gilbert Arenas.

RE: NBA Discussion - gocard14 - 06-25-2023

(06-25-2023, 05:51 PM)g1313 Wrote: Will be interesting what the late/post-curry era looks like for the dubs. Hopefully the franchise has built enough equity to be a desirable destination. Seems more likely that we get the next star as a FA than through the draft or trade. Maybe we can pry loose a young star from a failed rebuild (Anthony Edwards? Cade Cunningham? SGA? Tyrese Haliburton?)

You almost never can get the guy who is on his rookie deal. They almost without fail will sign the max extension since that is the first big money they can get.

It’s the unsatisfied guy that has 1-2 years left on that deal that may be gettable (one example being Jaylen Brown now) . But we’ll need assets to do that.

Realistically when curry is done we need to blow it up and suck for a bit. If we had held on to Poole, even if he got better, he would have been our Bradley Beal. Meaning be good enough to keep us in the 8-10 seed range with no real hope of winning and no chance to draft a difference maker. We either trade Steph to a location of his choosing to try to get another ring or two or give him the Kobe treatment and pay him big money as a “thank you” contract to be our tank commander.

RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 06-30-2023

Draymond signs 4-year deal worth $100M guaranteed. Player option in year 4.

This is what I was thinking would happen in this "chase a ring or get the bag" decision matrix being setup for mid-level NBA veterans.

Bruce Brown, who was instrumental in Nuggets' run to title, signs a 2-year, $45M deal. The Pacers are not a title contender, but they were under the cap and could spend more. Brown made just $6.5 million each of the last two seasons and had just $15M in career earning over 4 years. He is the type of guy title contenders count on signing to round out their rotation. The new CBA makes teams over the cap unable to sign anyone to anything other than league minimum.

The parity in the league will increase and so too will the playoff competition with the best teams unable to stock up top talent.

RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 06-30-2023

The Dubs are certifiable for paying Dray $100mm at this stage of his career. Same deal as Kyle Kuzma who’s in his prime and just averaged 21 ppg.

RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 07-01-2023

(06-30-2023, 10:43 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: The Dubs are certifiable for paying Dray $100mm at this stage of his career. Same deal as Kyle Kuzma who’s in his prime and just averaged 21 ppg.

A few points:

1. Green will "only" earn $22.5M this season, saving the W's over $40M in tax penalties
2. The salary cap is expected to increase over the next three seasons
3. Green's value transcends scoring, one of the few players in the league who can make this claim
4. Green has helped the W's make 6 and win 4 NBA Finals - he's earned the money
5. His 4th year option is for the same amount as it was this year; relative to cap, it won't be as onerous then

I think the Warriors know what they are doing.

RE: NBA Discussion - gocard14 - 07-01-2023

(06-30-2023, 10:43 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: The Dubs are certifiable for paying Dray $100mm at this stage of his career. Same deal as Kyle Kuzma who’s in his prime and just averaged 21 ppg.

Also keep in mind that letting Dray walk wasn’t a feasible option. Due to still being over the tax they would still not be able to bring in anyone beyond vet minimums or maybe the tax payer MLE (if under the second apron) so there would be no way to replace him.

Taking last years team and subtracting Dray and DDV makes us not a serious contender.

As for additional signing, the warriors extended a QO to Ty Jerome, which will likely be accepted. Not sexy, but he was solid as a third PG and a good guy to bring back.

They are reportedly the favorite to land Daario Saric for the minimum. He would be a perfect fit as a stretch big they can play to have 4 shooters on the floor without sacrificing size. Also has the potential for a bounceback year 2 years post ACL year.

That would leave one spot for either a wing or big. Was hoping for Yuta Watanabe but he went to the suns. Joc Landale, Plumlee, or JTA are all options.

RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 07-01-2023

First team: Curry, Thompson, Wiggins, Green, Looney. If I'm not mistaken, this was the best fivesome in the NBA last year in terms of points scored vs. points given up.

Second team: Paul, Payton, Kuminga, Moody, Saric

Third team: Jerome, Quinones, Podziemski, Trayce-Jackson

Summer league will include the two draft choices Podziemski and Jackson-Davis, and the UDFA Javan Johnson from DePaul, former draft selection Gui Santos and last year's end-of-bench guard Lester Quinones. Reggie Perry is also on the team, he played well in G league and had a cup of coffee in the NBA two years ago.

RE: NBA Discussion - g1313 - 07-01-2023

Small detail, Jerome poached by the Cavs.