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RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-22-2023
(07-03-2023, 02:47 PM)g1313 Wrote:(07-02-2023, 11:52 AM)Mick Wrote: First team: Curry, Thompson, Wiggins, Green, Looney.
Second team: Paul, Payton, Kuminga, Moody, Saric
Third team: Jerome, Quinones, Podziemski, Trayce-Jackson
Picked up Cory Joseph, PG from Detroit to replace Jerome, pretty similar stats to Ty.
I think the dubs are doing about as well as you can given the circumstances (aging core). Denver looks dominant and the West seems to be getting better, but as long as we have Steph there is a little hope.
Unlucky that Steph didn't miss the year before or after the year he did, because instead of Wiseman it could have been Ja (present troubles aside) or Evan Mobley. Word is that Lacob was sold on Wiseman, but a big "what if..." would have been making a "lightyears ahead" move and trading back and taking Haliburton (or Tyrese Maxey or Desmond Bane)
Thought it would be interesting to compare Wiseman's Detroit Pistons stats with his Warriors stats, since he played a comparable number of games with both (21 for the Warriors, 24 for the Pistons).
I think he actually did better with the Warriors. Here's a statistical comparison between the two, all statistics computed on a per 36 minutes basis:
Points: better with Warriors (19.9 vs. 18.1).
Rebounds: better with Pistons (11.5 vs. 10.0).
Shooting percentage: all three better with Warriors, 2 pt (.630 vs. .559), 3 pt. (.500 vs. .167) and overall (.628 vs. .531)
Assists: Twice as good with the Warriors (1.9 vs. 1.0)
Turnovers: Fewer with the Warriors (1.9 vs. 2.2)
Steals: Twice as many with the Warriors (0.4 vs. 0.2)
Blocks: Slightly more with the Pistons (1.2 vs. 1.0)
Fouls: Fewer with the Pistons (4.1 vs. 5.4)
Wiseman's actual minutes per game were double with the Pistons (25.2) vs. the Warriors (12.5). Given his freedom and role in Detroit, it seems odd he would have better numbers with the Warriors.
RE: NBA Discussion - Leftcoast - 10-23-2023
Agreed Wiseman's Detroit performance is not exactly making the trade look like a mistake. I'm sure there are no regrets in the Warriors front office over the trade but there may be regrets coming from Detroit. I saw at least one article from a local Detroit source suggesting Wiseman was losing the battle for back-up center in camp/pre-season.
I'm having problems understanding your game stat comparison - especially the "point" line item. I'm seeing 6.9 ppg in GS versus 12.7 ppg for Detroit in last year's games. I'm not sure where the 19.9 and 18.1 come from - he might still be here if he was scoring 19.9 points per game! I may be missing something here.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wisemja01.html
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 10-23-2023
(10-23-2023, 11:36 AM)Leftcoast Wrote: I'm having problems understanding your game stat comparison - especially the "point" line item. I'm seeing 6.9 ppg in GS versus 12.7 ppg for Detroit in last year's games. I'm not sure where the 19.9 and 18.1 come from - he might still be here if he was scoring 19.9 points per game! I may be missing something here.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wisemja01.html
It might be Mick was citing the per 36 minutes stats?
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-23-2023
(10-23-2023, 01:03 PM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(10-23-2023, 11:36 AM)Leftcoast Wrote: I'm having problems understanding your game stat comparison - especially the "point" line item. I'm seeing 6.9 ppg in GS versus 12.7 ppg for Detroit in last year's games. I'm not sure where the 19.9 and 18.1 come from - he might still be here if he was scoring 19.9 points per game! I may be missing something here.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wisemja01.html
It might be Mick was citing the per 36 minutes stats?
That's correct, I was citing the per 36 minutes stats...really the only way to compare statistics when the player gets twice the playing time with one team versus another team.
Check out the fourth table down on this link, titled "Per 36 minutes."
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wisemja01.html
The fifth table down is "Per 100 Possessions" which contains WIseman's offensive and defensive ratings with the Warriors vs. the Pistons. Also makes the point that he was better with the Warriors:
Offensive rating, 123 with the Warriors, 108 with the Pistons (higher is better)
Defensive rating, 114 with the Warriors, 118 with the Pistons (lesser is better)
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-25-2023
Warriors had their first game, a 108-104 home loss to the Suns. Draymond Green did not play, nor did the two rookies drafted. Notes:
1) Rotation is ten deep. Looney, Wiggins, Paul, Curry, Thompson will start. Saric, Kuminga, Payton Moody round it out. Green will join the rotation when he returns. C. Joseph was terrible in his four minutes with a -12 rating. How do you even do that badly? I don't expect him to stay in the rotation.
2) Warrior starters were 7 for 34 from three point range, team shot 35.6% overall and 23.3% from three point range. Ugly.
3) At least they kept turnovers down to 11 (Kerr's goal is 14 max).
4) Starting forward Wiggins had one (1) rebound in 27 minutes.
5) Warriors had just 19 assists and were outrebounded 60-49.
6) Warriors had 8 steals, just three from the starters.
7) Saric looked much better than the backup big men from last year.
8) Kuminga looked really good. six rebounds, 12 points, just two turnovers, a block and two steals in 20 minutes.
General impressions: Two keys to a successful season. First...if they remain healthy -- a brobdingnagian if -- they could be pretty successful. Second, they need to win on the road. They seem to be playing much better defense, which is they key to winning on the road. Chris Paul is a stabilizing influence. The high shooting percentages are likely to return.
https://theathletic.com/4997619/2023/10/25/chris-paul-warriors-floor-general-thompson/
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 10-26-2023
I'm not gonna claim to know 10% of what the Warriors coaching staff knows, but I also don't have any allegiance to any player and don't DGAF about the past accomplishments of players on the roster. This is just based on what I have seen and believe will project forward.
Starting Unit:
PG: Curry
SG: Moody
SF: Wiggins
PF: Green
C: Looney
Second Unit:
PG: Paul
SG: GP2
SF: Thompson
PF: Kuminga
C: Saric
Moses Moody is a better player than Klay Thompson now. He doesn't force shots like Klay does, he's now reading the game well on both sides of the floor, and is ready to bring it every night from the jump. Klay would also benefit from Chris Paul creating more open looks for him with the second unit.
If Wiggins continues playing like he did on opening night, I would start Kuminga over him and move Wiggins to the bench too. I liked how Kuminga was going after rebounds against Suns.
I'd also like to see Trace Jackson-Davis get some PT, but hard to see where he fits in right now. The Warriors must be one of the best 3pt FG% teams in the NBA to overcome their lack of size. That means taking good quality shots. Klay Thompson is now in a contract year and will force shots trying to prove himself. He did this in the playoffs last year and you can see the results - awful.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-26-2023
Good post. Couple of thoughts:
1) In your starter/backup set, I would switch Kuminga and Wiggins. Kuminga is really, really ready. He's getting to the line, he's playing smothering defense and he's taking in rebounds. Wiggins had one (1) rebound in 27 minutes...a forward with ONE rebound. WIggins went 4/12 from the field, with 0-3 from three point range. He had one blcok and three fouls and a team-worst -22.
Kuminga, on the other hand, in 20 minutes had six rebounds, an assist,two steals, a block, two turnovers and five fouls. He was +4. And I doubt it will change, and injuries are going to determine who goes when and where, but I was seriously disappointed in Wiggins and seriously impressed with Kuminga.
2) You're right about Moody, even though he was -6. He was on court at rough times. He was 4/6 shooting, 2/4 from 3 pt range, had 3 rebounds in 18 minutes, three steals, a block, just one foul, just one turnover. He's still only 21. Both he and JK are ready.
3) I'm really worried about Thompson. He was a gunner, 18 shots in 36 minutes, no free throws. He did get 7 rebounds (as did Saric), and he had three assists. But he also had three turnovers. He was +9. I would bet against another contract. Either he will get hurt or he will be ineffective, but he's going to want a ridiculous amount of money that he doesn't merit.
4) Saric returns the Warriors to the days of the inexpensive yet highly effective big man (Mark West, Otto Porter, Nemanja Bjelica). He was 3/11, but had 7 rebounds, two blocks and was +7 in 20 efficient minutes.
5) I think the Warriors' shooting is going to get better with time.
6) Draymond Green's return will make a massive difference.
7) They only gave up 108 points, and that was to an upper division club. Last year, they gave up 108 or less just 17 times. On the other hand, they only scored as few as 104 six times all of last season. The Warriors only scored 18 in the 2nd and 4th quarter. Not good.
8) They only gave up 11 turnovers (versus 19 for the Suns). That's a great sign.
9) Rebounds-wise, offensive rebounds were roughly equal (17 and 18 for the W's), but the Suns killed the Warriors on the defensive boards, 43-31.
10) The Warriors are on the road tomorrow night against the Kings, 7 p.m., ESPN. That will be interesting. Hopefully their defense shows up. Kings scored 130 against the Jazz. Former Warrior Harrison Barnes scored 33. I'd like to see Kuminga guard Barnes.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 10-30-2023
How about Chris Paul coming off the bench for the first time in 1,217 games? This is why I believed the Paul experiment would work. How can you possibly have a better backup PG to Curry than Chris Paul? It's not just that they are both great players, it's that they are so different.
I still think Moody should start over Thompson, but I'm willing to see what happens with Green's return before digging my heels in on it. Last year it seemed Kerr was constantly - throughout the season - trying to figure out a second unit. Now, in Game 3, he's got it. Everyone can see it:
First: Curry, Thompson, Wiggins, Green, Looney
Second: Paul, GP2, Moody, Kuminga, Saric
The most promising thing is both these units play defense. Wiggins isn't gonna continue shooting 37% FG and 11% 3 pt FG, so things are looking good for the W's.
I hope any of y'all who are hoops fans got to see Lakers-Kings last night. What a game that was. De'Arron Fox is right on the verge of passing Stephen Curry as the All-NBA superstar PG. He rolled his ankle pretty badly in the 4th Quarter, came back to help fore OT, begged out in OT, and they beat the Lakers without Fox and Sabonis who fouled out, in OT, on the shoulders of Malik Monk, Keegan Murray, and Kevin Huerter. I'll always root for the Kings over the Lakers, so was nice to see them get the win.
The West is just a minefield. So many good teams that will beat the crap out of each other all year, just like last year!
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-30-2023
I don't disagree re: Moody and Thompson, but I think the clearer switch is Kuminga for Wiggins. Wiggins disappears for long stretches, and he basically refuses to rebound. In three games, Wiggins is averaging two rebounds for his 27 minutes per game. Kuminga's no rebounding genius either, but he's at least pushed his average to 4.2 for his 21 minutes per game. And Kuminga is ahead of Wiggins as a shooter.
At the same time, I would be disinclined to screw around with the mix much. They've won two road games. Curry, Klay, Draymond, Looney aren't going anywhere but the starting lineup...presuming continuing good health. Celebrini has his work cut out for him, for certain.
Kerr met with Paul, Curry, Draymond, Wiggins, Looney and Thompson before preseason even began and laid out his plans for playing time, who was starting, etc. Apparently, Chris Paul bought in right away. If you think about it, Paul solves three big problems: (a) fixing the second unit and making it useful by being the playmaker/ball handler/high BB IQ leader (b) reducing the cyclone of turnovers initiated by Poole and others and bringing excellent defense back to the second unit. He raises everyone's game on the second unit and meshes perfectly with the first unit (maybe not perfectly, but they're getting there).
This is an old team. No one's going to be hurting for playing time. And the two rookies have had little to no playing time, but that will change when the injuries start to build up.
Incidentally...Poole's been interesting to watch in the Wizards' first two games. He's averaging 22.5, about 10 less than I thought he would. He's only shooting 36.6% from the field and 22.2% from three point range. His shooting efficiency is 10th on the Wizards' team. And he's averaging 4.5 turnovers a game, more than double the next worst. He's more undisciplined than he was with the Warriors, if that's even possible. And they lost to Indiana on the road, 143-120. Wizards rank 29th in points allowed in the 30 team NBA.
The Warriors are ninth in team defense at 105.7 per game. and T14th in scoring at 110.7. Warriors are 3rd in steals (10.3 per game), still giving up the 9th most fouls per team at 21.7. They're middle of the pack in most of the other statistics, including 12th in point differential.
RE: NBA Discussion - cardcrimson - 10-30-2023
(10-30-2023, 07:00 AM)Mick Wrote: At the same time, I would be disinclined to screw around with the mix much. They've won two road games.
That's pretty much what the won all last year, right. . . .
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 10-31-2023
The sports world uses the phrase "statement win" a little too liberally. We need only look at the hype around the Colorado football team and what they have proven themselves to be, to see barely beating a mediocre team like 2023 TCU in the first game of season, is not really a statement win, as the entire mediasphere hyped it to be.
Last night's Warriors 130-102 smackdown of the Pelicans in New Orleans, with Klay Thompson and Jonathan Kuminga sitting out, was a real statement win by the W's. I saw the W's were leading by a few points late 2nd Quarter before going to bed. Then I wake up and see what happened and my attention was grabbed in a serious way.
Thompson and Kuminga can't play? No problem. We'll just plug rookies Brandin Podziemski and Trace Jackson-Davis into the rotation and watch them go 7-14 with 17 boards, 4 blocks, and a combined +26. Rookies and role players are suppose to be better at home and struggle on the road. That game in New Orleans was a hostile environment and the W's drubbed them. Ten players played at least 20 mins and they were all at least +6.
The Warriors had three primary objectives in the off-season:
- Develop a strong second unit from the outset of the season
- Get the defense back to a Top 10 level
- Improve team chemistry
Done, done, and done.
GP2 has to be the most unique player in the NBA. He's a 6-2 Guard who hounds the ball on the perimeter on defense, and then he plays like a big man on offense. If he can shoot 40% 3-pt FG, wow.
Does anyone think the Harden trade will help the Clippers? I thought Batum was one of their key roles players. I don't think you can have Harden and Westbrook on the floor at the same time. Seems to me one of those guys needs to come off the bench.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-31-2023
(10-31-2023, 05:38 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: The sports world uses the phrase "statement win" a little too liberally. We need only look at the hype around the Colorado football team and what they have proven themselves to be, to see barely beating a mediocre team like 2023 TCU in the first game of season, is not really a statement win, as the entire mediasphere hyped it to be.
Last night's Warriors 130-102 smackdown of the Pelicans in New Orleans, with Klay Thompson and Jonathan Kuminga sitting out, was a real statement win by the W's. I saw the W's were leading by a few points late 2nd Quarter before going to bed. Then I wake up and see what happened and my attention was grabbed in a serious way.
Thompson and Kuminga can't play? No problem. We'll just plug rookies Brandin Podziemski and Trace Jackson-Davis into the rotation and watch them go 7-14 with 17 boards, 4 blocks, and a combined +26. Rookies and role players are suppose to be better at home and struggle on the road. That game in New Orleans was a hostile environment and the W's drubbed them. Ten players played at least 20 mins and they were all at least +6.
The Warriors had three primary objectives in the off-season:
- Develop a strong second unit from the outset of the season
- Get the defense back to a Top 10 level
- Improve team chemistry
Done, done, and done.
GP2 has to be the most unique player in the NBA. He's a 6-2 Guard who hounds the ball on the perimeter on defense, and then he plays like a big man on offense. If he can shoot 40% 3-pt FG, wow.
The Warriors have won three in a row on the road. They didn't do that all of last season. And last night, they beat a 2-0 Pelicans team by 28 points on the second night of a back to back with Thompson and Kuminga out, giving significant minutes to their #19 and #57 overall pick rookies. GP2 is 6'3" and had four rebounds in 20 minutes, Podziemski is 6'5" and had 8 rebounds in 23 minutes, fellow rookie TJD had 10 rebounds in 20 minutes. The second unit had 15 offensive rebounds, 40 rebounds overall. The first unit only had 24 rebounds.
The other goal was to reduce turnovers. They only had 14, which is Kerr's standing goal for the season, 14 per game. Chris Paul has been a superb addition, demanding near-greatness of the second team. Meanwhile, Poole's Wizards team is sinking, 1-2. Poole is averaging 4.0 turnovers per game.
RE: NBA Discussion - bl82 - 10-31-2023
I must confess that I used to think Chris Paul was overrated, but watching him put up 8.3 assists and just 1.5 TOs per game so far, I can’t believe how much he is contributing at 38.
RE: NBA Discussion - washingtonismoney - 10-31-2023
(10-31-2023, 11:44 AM)bl82 Wrote: I must confess that I used to think Chris Paul was overrated, but watching him put up 8.3 assists and just 1.5 TOs per game so far, I can’t believe how much he is contributing at 38.
CP3's always been a great...though perhaps, like Oscar Isaac's character in Inside Llewyn Davis, cursed to be overshadowed by more brilliant contemporaries.
RE: NBA Discussion - CompSci87 - 10-31-2023
Both rookies were really impressive. TJD looks like a veteran much of the time. Podz a bit less so, but still looks like he really belongs out there. Both will continue to improve.
Chris Paul has been fantastic -- stating the obvious.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-31-2023
(10-31-2023, 01:13 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: Both rookies were really impressive. TJD looks like a veteran much of the time. Podz a bit less so, but still looks like he really belongs out there. Both will continue to improve.
Chris Paul has been fantastic -- stating the obvious.
Agreed re: TJD and Podz. TJD has to be the steal of the draft, I think. That guy is really, really ready for the NBA. Still wouldn't be surprised to see Podz in Santa Cruz, but given Steve Kerr's very positive comments on both rookies, I suspect he'll stay. Hope he starts hitting his shots more.
Separately, this is an interesting article that empirically analyzes the Paul-for-Poole/rookies/draft picks trade, and thinks the Warriors definitely got the better of it:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/early-returns-on-warriors-jordan-poole-trade-look-good-for-golden-state/ar-AA1japkc?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=5f27c379b0ae4ba98d06524c7158a419&ei=26
What I didn't know is that what (allegedly) provoked Draymond into punching Poole was that he (allegedly) called Draymond an "expensive backpack", specifically in reference to their relative value Jordan Poole said to Green "You're an expensive backpack for 30" referencing Curry. This from a Washington Wizards writer:
Jordan Poole’s Message To Draymond Green That Started The Fight - Sports Illustrated Washington Wizards News, Analysis and More
RE: NBA Discussion - CompSci87 - 10-31-2023
Mick, you posted the wrong link for the CP3 trade analysis. Could you fix that?
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 10-31-2023
(10-31-2023, 08:22 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: Mick, you posted the wrong link for the CP3 trade analysis. Could you fix that?
Fixed in original post, and here it is: Early returns on Warriors Jordan Poole trade look good for Golden State (msn.com)
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-01-2023
And another, less-than-complimentary-but-entirely-predictable article on Mr. Poole.
Jordan Poole is putting up embarrassing shots for the Wizards
RE: NBA Discussion - washingtonismoney - 11-01-2023
(11-01-2023, 06:06 PM)Mick Wrote: And another, less-than-complimentary-but-entirely-predictable article on Mr. Poole.
Jordan Poole is putting up embarrassing shots for the Wizards
All this was unsurprising, sadly. When Andre Iguodala clowned him on the way out I wrote him (Poole) off. He clearly did not have the drive to improve that separates the great from the good, and the good from the non-playable.