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RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 11-09-2023
Steve Kerr says he's not concerned about Andrew Wiggins. Is he the only one? Even Wiggins has to be concerned about Wiggins.
Klay was 2-4 from three, then 0-4, and went 3/6 from the FT line. With Wiggins shooting so poorly, Klay can't have an off shooting night and absolutely can't miss half his FTs. Curry can never have an off night for the W's to win at the current rate. Maybe if Chris Paul scored 17 like against Detroit, they win, but it is just a fact that 31% 3pt FG is not going to win them any games with their lack of size and easy baskets around the rim.
Kuminga showed some life on the boards even though he only had 4. That's much better than 1, and he really stuck his nose in there. Wiggins also had 5 boards to help his 4-13/0-3 shooting showing, but Kuminga looks more engaged.
That was a game the W's could have won and would have if they just got Avg. NBA performance from Wiggins and Thompson. Last year the W's had the best starting 5 in the NBA by far, historically dominant, with a lousy bench. This year the starters are terrible and the bench is the best in the NBA. Does Kerr have to give more minutes to the bench guys? Or does he need to start Moody over Thompson and Kuminga over Wiggins?
The two guys we have questioned as starters, Wiggins (-42) and Thompson (-3) are just not playing well enough to be starters and the two guys I have suggested should be looked at as starters Moody (+46) and Kuminga (+23) are playing better. It is not revisionist history for me to say Thompson should come off the bench. He needs to play with Chris Paul so Moody can help get the team off to faster starts. But maybe Paul can help unlock Wiggins a bit more too?
The Warriors and Niners are in similar positions this year as it comes to season success measures. Both are putting their chips in for championship runs, both have proven rosters, and both have players underperforming expectations and what they have done in the past, though for the Niners it's more unit than individual player based.
So I am going to be hyper-critical of both teams, demonstrate tremendous sense of urgency, and have no tolerance for moral victories. Yes, the W's had possession in the final minute with chance to take lead in Denver, but they didn't win because key guys didn't perform. They out rebounded the Nuggets, shot more FTs, and had just 3 more turnovers (9). It's not acceptable. These guys are paid way too much to not get it done in the biggest moments. Klay Thompson makes his FTs, and the W's very well win. Wiggins makes 1-3 from 3 and they win too. Curry can't do everything. Jokic got plenty of help from his supporting cast when needed.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-09-2023
Couple of thoughts:
1. All of the starters were in the negative on plus/minus, from Looney and Wiggins at -6 to Klay at -13. Steph was -10.
2. All of the backups were in the positive, from Chris Paul at +5 to BP at +8 and Kuminga at +9. BP got his +8 in 11 minutes.
3. Starters shot 41.2%, backups shot 45.7%.
4. Starters played 63%, backups played 37% (151 minutes to 89).
5. Starters had 8 turnovers, backups had just one. Really good sign for the backups.
6. Backups had nine personal fouls, the two rookies had 4 (TJD) and BP had 2 in just 11 minutes.
7. Warriors had zero (0) blocks.
8. Starters and backups rebounded about the same. Warriors led in rebounds, 49-45 over the much bigger nuggets.
9. Real story is starters had just 11 assists, backups had 10. Starters not effective moving the ball.
They had a pretty good defensive night with five steals, held the defending league champs at home at altitude to 108 points. Not bad.
I like this team a lot.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-11-2023
Trayce Jackson-Davis, Brandin Podziemski, Gui Santos and Lester Quinones all sent to Santa Cruz Warriors who beat the Stockton Kings 125-114 in the SC Warriors' season opener. Lines were:
TJD: 28 pts, 12 rebs, +15
BP: 24 pts, 7 rebs, 4 assts, +14
GS: 19 pts, 4 assts, +7
LQ: 18 pts, 7 assts, 6 rebs
Kings 114-125 Warriors (Nov 10, 2023) Box Score - ESPN
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 11-12-2023
OK, I'm not going to be bashful about it any more. I don't care how much more basketball Steve Kerr knows than me. Klay Thompson simply must go to the bench in favor of Moses Moody. I've felt this way for a while, but now that the W's are 2-3 in their last five, and now face the hottest team in the West in back-to-back games in the T-Wolves, its is time to make the move.
Klay Thompson is -31 in the last four games. The Warriors are 1-3 in those games, and the one before that he was a 0.
If he's not going to shoot well (43% FG and 35% 3-pt FG), he has to be a dominant defender, which he is not, as the W's are consistently being outscored to start games.
Curry turns the ball over too much and Thompson is a rhythm shooter. Playing with Paul will give Thompson more open looks that he needs and will allow him to be more consistent. It will also put Thompson on lesser offensive threats.
I don't think the bench - now outplaying the starters - is going to get worse if Thompson joins it, as I'm pretty convinced Chris Paul makes the bench so good and whoever plays with him will be made more effective.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-12-2023
(11-12-2023, 06:12 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: OK, I'm not going to be bashful about it any more. I don't care how much more basketball Steve Kerr knows than me. Klay Thompson simply must go to the bench in favor of Moses Moody. I've felt this way for a while, but now that the W's are 2-3 in their last five, and now face the hottest team in the West in back-to-back games in the T-Wolves, its is time to make the move.
Klay Thompson is -31 in the last four games. The Warriors are 1-3 in those games, and the one before that he was a 0.
If he's not going to shoot well (43% FG and 35% 3-pt FG), he has to be a dominant defender, which he is not, as the W's are consistently being outscored to start games.
Curry turns the ball over too much and Thompson is a rhythm shooter. Playing with Paul will give Thompson more open looks that he needs and will allow him to be more consistent. It will also put Thompson on lesser offensive threats.
I don't think the bench - now outplaying the starters - is going to get worse if Thompson joins it, as I'm pretty convinced Chris Paul makes the bench so good and whoever plays with him will be made more effective.
And while we're at it, I'd really like to know what's going on with Andrew Wiggins. He's only 28. Lowest FG% of his career. 17% 3pt FGA. 53% FTA. Lowest rebounding average, lowest blocking average, lowest steals average, and -6.1 on the +/- scale. What's going on? Maybe move HIM to the second team.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 11-14-2023
It will be fascinating to see how the Warriors respond to their 3-game skid tonight. Does the play-in tournament game that sets up as a quasi-playoff situation like Game 2 after losing Game 1 at home, inspire an inspired effort from the W's after falling to the T-Wolves on Sunday?
Or is this a matter of Minnesota's NBA-best Defense being too much for the terrible shooting Warriors to overcome?
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-14-2023
(11-14-2023, 07:56 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote: It will be fascinating to see how the Warriors respond to their 3-game skid tonight. Does the play-in tournament game that sets up as a quasi-playoff situation like Game 2 after losing Game 1 at home, inspire an inspired effort from the W's after falling to the T-Wolves on Sunday?
Or is this a matter of Minnesota's NBA-best Defense being too much for the terrible shooting Warriors to overcome?
Steph Curry is likely out tonight. That will be interesting, to see how Kerr handles Curry's loss.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 11-14-2023
(11-14-2023, 09:05 AM)Mick Wrote: Steph Curry is likely out tonight. That will be interesting, to see how Kerr handles Curry's loss.
The W's are -1.5. Hard to imagine this line if Curry really isn't going to be playing. Then again, the gambling public is probably waiting for an official declaration as to Curry being in or out.
What will really be interesting to me is how much the line moves if Curry is officially ruled out.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-14-2023
(11-14-2023, 09:59 AM)OutsiderFan Wrote:(11-14-2023, 09:05 AM)Mick Wrote: Steph Curry is likely out tonight. That will be interesting, to see how Kerr handles Curry's loss.
The W's are -1.5. Hard to imagine this line if Curry really isn't going to be playing. Then again, the gambling public is probably waiting for an official declaration as to Curry being in or out.
What will really be interesting to me is how much the line moves if Curry is officially ruled out.
He's officially ruled out. Warriors are now 2.5 point underdogs. Line moved 4 points.
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-15-2023
(11-07-2023, 04:05 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: We should be grading the Warriors on a curve, considering that ownership is forking over $188 million in luxury tax.
Getting rid of Poole's contract was a good move, but it cost Baldwin and a future first round pick. The team already has traded Wiseman and its 2024 pick as well. As gocard noted, the team does not have an elite player after Curry, who is somewhat old. Someday, probably not too long from now, Curry's play will decline. When that happens, the team ideally would be able to re-build through the draft. Trading first rounders will make that re-build more challenging.
Although the mid-term future looks iffy, the strategy some advocated, "build for now and still avoid any need to re-build" was always somewhat unrealistic. There always was going to have to be a downturn in the cycle. Recent events might just make that downturn last a little bit longer.
Washington already wants to get rid of Poole...
Washington Wizards Guard Jordan Poole May Not Be Part of Teams' Future Plans
Poole is the #415 ranked NBA player in terms of net offensive/defensive ratings
Players Advanced | Stats | NBA.com
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 11-15-2023
After the ejections of Thompson and Green against the T-Wolves, the Warriors played 46 minutes without Curry, Thompson, and Green. And they barely lost to the hottest team in the NBA.
Brandin Podziemski played so well that Steve Kerr basically said he will now will play every game and you would think significant minutes based on how bullish his comments were after Podz was 9-18 (3-8 3pt) for 23 pts and a +12. Is he the guy who should start over Klay?
It crushes me to see Moses Moody a -12 in 14 mins, even though he scored 11 on 4-6 FG. Is he that bad defensively?
Another no-show game for Wiggins, with 4-15 shooting and just 9 points in 28 mins of a game Curry and Thompson were out.
I'm ready to start looking at trade options for Wiggins and Kuminga. They both are just not playing with the intensity and efficiency the Warriors need from them. How does JK be 2nd in preseason scoring and just completely disappear in the regular season?
I'm not ready to pull the trigger today, but I would certainly be looking at what might be available and telling them they have to improve or they could be moved.
RE: NBA Discussion - Leftcoast - 11-15-2023
(11-15-2023, 09:36 AM)Mick Wrote:(11-07-2023, 04:05 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: We should be grading the Warriors on a curve, considering that ownership is forking over $188 million in luxury tax.
Getting rid of Poole's contract was a good move, but it cost Baldwin and a future first round pick. The team already has traded Wiseman and its 2024 pick as well. As gocard noted, the team does not have an elite player after Curry, who is somewhat old. Someday, probably not too long from now, Curry's play will decline. When that happens, the team ideally would be able to re-build through the draft. Trading first rounders will make that re-build more challenging.
Although the mid-term future looks iffy, the strategy some advocated, "build for now and still avoid any need to re-build" was always somewhat unrealistic. There always was going to have to be a downturn in the cycle. Recent events might just make that downturn last a little bit longer.
Washington already wants to get rid of Poole...
Washington Wizards Guard Jordan Poole May Not Be Part of Teams' Future Plans
Poole is the #415 ranked NBA player in terms of net offensive/defensive ratings
Players Advanced | Stats | NBA.com
Bad teams make bad trades and Washington is a bad team. I'm not a fan of Poole and after suffering through last season my initial thoughts on the trade were Good Riddance and Addition by Subtraction.
Having said that, it's early and the sample size is small. James Harden is #416 in the same ranking and <coff> Robin Lopez is #6 in his 1 game played. Poole may yet do something worthwhile in Washington even if he is likely to fall short of the face-of-the-franchise player they hoped. That salary will be a mill-stone for Poole. He needs to be a #2 or #3 on a good team but is being paid as a #1. He's Andrew Wiggins in Minnesota - a player grossly unfit for the role he's being asked to play.
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 11-16-2023
Two things can be true at the same time:
(1) Poole was an overrated player demanding a brobdingnagian contract and directing unwarranted insults at a core player on the team.
(2) Draymond acts like a thug far too often, and he went overboard on Poole, just like he did against Gobert.
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 11-16-2023
(11-16-2023, 07:55 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: Two things can be true at the same time:
(1) Poole was an overrated player demanding a of immense proportions contract and directing unwarranted insults at a core player on the team.
(2) Draymond acts like a thug far too often, and he went overboard on Poole, just like he did against Gobert.
And interesting perspective on Draymond Green that I believe has some merit:
https://open.substack.com/pub/warriors/p/you-dont-hate-draymond-you-hate-where?r=911dv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
RE: NBA Discussion - Mick - 11-16-2023
(11-16-2023, 07:55 PM)TrumpCard Wrote: Two things can be true at the same time:
(1) Poole was an overrated player demanding a of immense proportions contract and directing unwarranted insults at a core player on the team.
(2) Draymond acts like a thug far too often, and he went overboard on Poole, just like he did against Gobert.
Agreed with both statements. By his own admission, Draymond has cost the W's championships. If he doesn't knee LeBron in the groin, I think the Warriors would have won the 2016 NBA championship, and if he doesn't publicly humiliate Durant -- and if he'd managed to build a relationship with him -- Durant stays, and the Warriors win more championships. In a way, Draymond reminds me of Bill Laimbeer.
When I heard what Poole said to Draymond, it reminded me of my mother's admonition when I was growing up with her in a very tough area. The police, in our little area, were the enemies. Mom gave me a one-sentence instruction as to how to deal with the police: "Treat them like crazy people with guns." That reminds me of Draymond, a bit. And for Poole to shove the gratuitous, disrespectful remark at a 4x NBA Champion, particularly given his background...I'm not saying I condone the punch, I don't. But I definitely understood it.
RE: NBA Discussion - CompSci87 - 11-16-2023
Of course Draymond didn't knee Lebron in the groin. He waved his hand in Lebron's general direction after Lebron stepped over him, and he may or may not have made contact with Lebron's shorts.
Really it just goes to show how Draymond's reputation makes everything he does seem worse... not that he hasn't done a lot that he shouldn't have!
RE: NBA Discussion - OutsiderFan - 11-17-2023
The Warriors need to either trade Klay Thompson or give him a contract extension.
He can say he's not thinking about his contract, but there is no doubt in my mind he is because he's never shot so poorly before and the only different variable now vs. ever is he is playing for a contract extension he's uncertain about. He has been dreadful since the '23 playoffs when he tried to prove himself against the Lakers team he grew up rooting for with his dad doing their broadcasts. His two 4-ring mates are out and he steps up with a 1-10 effort? Really? Might as well have gone 0-10. He must be playing some decent defense as even with his worst shooting night of an already awful season, he was just -2 in 27 minutes.
Klay Thompson is pressing, not playing relaxed, as he tries to prove his worth. If he gets the extension, he'll relax and just play, and if he is traded, he won't be the Warrior's problem. My instinct is to give Klay an extension at a price that reflects his current production and then send him to the bench in favor of Moses Moody.
The majority of NBA players eventually move to a bench role as they age out. It's time for the Warriors to employ it and Klay to embrace it.
It's LOL bad when Thompson and Wiggins combine to go 1-10 from 3pt range and some guy named Isaiah Joe goes 7-7 for OKC, the W's shoot 34% from 3 and Thunder turns in a 59% night.
You also know it's bad when Podziemski comes off the bench and goes 4-7 (3-4 from 3) and he's a -26 in 25 mins.
The Warriors are a mess right now. They have the 5th worst FG% and 10th worst 3pt FG%. They are 10th in FG% D, so there is hope, but shooting simply must improve or this will be a lottery team.
RE: NBA Discussion - lex24 - 11-17-2023
OutsiderFan dateline='[url=tel:1700226171' Wrote: 1700226171[/url]']
The Warriors need to either trade Klay Thompson or give him a contract extension.
He can say he's not thinking about his contract, but there is no doubt in my mind he is because he's never shot so poorly before and the only different variable now vs. ever is he is playing for a contract extension he's uncertain about. He has been dreadful since the '23 playoffs when he tried to prove himself against the Lakers team he grew up rooting for with his dad doing their broadcasts. His two 4-ring mates are out and he steps up with a 1-10 effort? Really? Might as well have gone 0-10. He must be playing some decent defense as even with his worst shooting night of an already awful season, he was just -2 in 27 minutes.
Klay Thompson is pressing, not playing relaxed, as he tries to prove his worth. If he gets the extension, he'll relax and just play, and if he is traded, he won't be the Warrior's problem. My instinct is to give Klay an extension at a price that reflects his current production and then send him to the bench in favor of Moses Moody.
The majority of NBA players eventually move to a bench role as they age out. It's time for the Warriors to employ it and Klay to embrace it.
It's LOL bad when Thompson and Wiggins combine to go 1-10 from 3pt range and some guy named Isaiah Joe goes 7-7 for OKC, the W's shoot 34% from 3 and Thunder turns in a 59% night.
You also know it's bad when Podziemski comes off the bench and goes 4-7 (3-4 from 3) and he's a -26 in 25 mins.
The Warriors are a mess right now. They have the 5th worst FG% and 10th worst 3pt FG%. They are 10th in FG% D, so there is hope, but shooting simply must improve or this will be a lottery team.
Warriors are not going to trade Klay. And apparently they are far apart in their extension discussions. So, he’s going to have to work through this.
Tough situation. He’s a key cog of a 4 time Champion. But he’s an old 33 basketball wise. ACL. Achilles. And all those extra high pressure games. He’s always been there for Kerr. Tough to move away from that.
As for Moody. It’s pretty obvious Kerr does not share your fixation. Hes not getting major minutes even with Curry and now Draymond out.
Speaking of Draymond, the act has overstayed its time. And he gets no excuse based on his background. Despite that article. Somehow, I don’t think Draymond is the only NBA player with a street hoops background. The Warriors have enabled him long enough. It was a mistake, imo, to give him a three year deal.
Warriors are beginning to remind me of the 2016 Giants. Maybe they can put together one more season where they challenge. But the end of the road is near.
RE: NBA Discussion - bl82 - 11-17-2023
Time to give Steph and Podz some run
RE: NBA Discussion - TrumpCard - 11-17-2023
Who knew that giving out hundreds of millions in contract extensions would cause players to work less hard and exercise less self-control? Wiggins, Green, and Poole all disappointing in different ways this year after getting new contracts from the Dubs last year. That said, the Warriors still have a tremendous roster. The team was lucky to unload Poole before his true value became apparent. Curry and Paul are generational talents who work hard and lead by example. I don't worry for this team. The wins will come. I have always disagreed with the commentary in the 2022-2023 preseason that the team would not need to rebuild after Curry, but the team is still good now.