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Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - OutsiderFan - 06-22-2016

Just like you would always take a quicker guy over a less quick guy, skill being the same.  You would always take the bigger guy with equal quickness and skill.

Messi may not be as fast as Usain Bolt or even Christian McCaffrey, but to me the guy is an athletic freak, not because he has amazing speed and jumping ability, but because of the precision touch, balance, and vision he has. 

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - stupac2 - 06-22-2016

(06-22-2016, 12:42 PM)washingtonismoney link Wrote:Not sure what you mean.

Moneyball was predicated on finding undervalued players because scouts weren't paying attention to what mattered. NFL coaches put way too much stock in combine numbers, and not even the good ones that we know matter a lot. I'm sure the same is true elsewhere. I don't know enough about soccer to say, but it would be sort of surprising if soccer coaches didn't have their own myopias. Although maybe the culture in other countries where players are basically reared by teams from adolescence mitigates these tendencies.

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - washingtonismoney - 06-22-2016

(06-22-2016, 02:14 PM)stupac2 link Wrote:Moneyball was predicated on finding undervalued players because scouts weren't paying attention to what mattered. NFL coaches put way too much stock in combine numbers, and not even the good ones that we know matter a lot. I'm sure the same is true elsewhere. I don't know enough about soccer to say, but it would be sort of surprising if soccer coaches didn't have their own myopias. Although maybe the culture in other countries where players are basically reared by teams from adolescence mitigates these tendencies.

Ah, right sure. Well, I think the effect is lessened here since we're talking about development. So if it's better to develop less athletic but more skilled and intelligent players than the current paradigm, that's all well and good -- but it takes you years to get to the point where your arbitrage pays off. By the time you get to the professional level it's a little harder to find the (American) players to make the arbitrage play. Of course MLS teams basically play foreign players in attacking positions predominantly anyway -- for a variety of reasons, sports-related as well as economic-related -- which kind of chokes off the supply of young American attacking players.

It'd be as if Billy Beane decided that the market was undervaluing on-base percentage and had to find and develop such players starting in middle school: doable, but difficult, and incredibly long-term.

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - dabigv13 - 06-24-2016

Some interesting points in this article. I think the niceness angle is overstated...the USMNT probably could've had two red cards for elbows to necks and such, but still thibk some of it is valid.

https://apple.news/AfUmiJ8yjQmqkOyxKWieuHw


Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - washingtonismoney - 06-25-2016

(06-24-2016, 09:06 PM)dabigv link Wrote:Some interesting points in this article. I think the niceness angle is overstated...the USMNT probably could've had two red cards for elbows to necks and such, but still thibk some of it is valid.

https://apple.news/AfUmiJ8yjQmqkOyxKWieuHw

Yeah, I dunno, I think it's silly. For whatever reason when the U.S. loses to elite opponents people love to whip up the thinkpieces and ponder.

But that was a feeble effort against Argentina. I've been watching the U.S. for ages, and it sometimes wins against top opponents, usually loses, often loses lopsidedly...but never so bad as that game. Never! And you can't tell me that this Argentina team was better than the Xavi/Iniesta Spain teams. Nor can you tell me that the talent was worse then than it is now; the U.S. used to compete with elite teams and start Johnny Bornstein and Robbie Findley. (Both...MLS players, oddly enough.)

So whatever the malign influence of MLS, it must have cropped up in, I dunno, the past few months. It also raises a few other questions:

-- There are many foreign-based players Klinsmann could've called up. If MLS is so malign, and Klinsmann is such a critic of it, why not call them up? This is an honest question; I have no idea why the hell the does what he does and there are many useful players he's called up on a weird schedule that is of no possible help to him.

-- More likely...  Klinsmann called up the wrong players. How many close MLS watchers think that Graham Zusi, right now, is the best American winger in the league? The answer, I'll say, is zero.

-- It also raises the question of what, exactly, Europe does. DeAndre Yedlin was, until recently, an MLS guy. Are we to believe that spending a few months outside of MLS removes the awful taint of MLS?  Jermaine Jones and Clint Dempsey have never been accused of niceness -- yet, here we are, praising them. Do their years of non-MLS life outweigh their recent years of MLS life? If so why does Yedlin escape the taint? And then why does Bradley -- with similar European experience -- get exempted.

-- Evans also brings up what we'll call the sociodemography/race-based debate as to why U.S. soccer isn't good. This is not a great theory of the Argentina loss, since it has been part of the debate since time immemorial, and therefore doesn't explain why the U.S. was so feeble against Argentina and generally so competitive against others.

It also buys into romance over science when it comes to sports. Simply put I have a strong suspicion that, on average, rich and middle class kids have an advantage over poor ones when it comes to soccer and athletics, just like everything else in the world. Note this article on the NBA as an example -- http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/opinion/sunday/in-the-nba-zip-code-matters.html -- but I suspect it applies across sports. (This, of course, puts the lie to the idea that Dempsey's background is somehow typical of NBA sports. And Dempsey wasn't poor either, which makes the anecdote so dumb.)

There's simply an availability bias when it comes to players' backgrounds; it's such a part of the romance of the game that a kid can learn playing with soccer balls made from taped up socks or whatever, and therefore writers spend a lot of time talking about those players' backgrounds -- and ignore or don't dwell upon the fact that Kaka came from a middle class background, Mario Gotze is a car engineer's son, Giorgio Chellini is a doctor's son, etc.

Strictly in a competitive sense, the U.S. is missing out that the player pool isn't as broad as possible, not that poor players are somehow quantitatively player, pound for pound, as rich and middle class kid players. But this is a long digression about a pet peeve of mine.

-- Anyway, the point is it's a silly article. Over the long run, on average, sure, yeah, get the players in the best league possible. (why this has to be a European league, I'm not sure! Evans also ignores that, historically, going to Europe straightaway -- as Pulisic does -- has been a pretty barren path to follow.) The reasons the team looked awful against Argentina are particular to the actual game against Argentina. Somehow people avoid drawing grand conclusions about the world when watching the NBA Finals or the Super Bowl, unless it naturally occurs to them; they mostly, you know, analyze the game in front of them. I'm not sure why writers prefer not to do this, but it means they avoid the obvious conclusion in front of them: the reason that the U.S. looked more competitive in the past than it does now is that Bob Bradley and Bruce Arena were far better coaches than Jurgen Klinsmann.


Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - dabigv13 - 06-25-2016

My problem with the article is that while the USMNT could be better at the "dark arts" it's not really the difference. The premise that ceding 5 yards to Messi on the free kick actually matttered in any way is pretty insipid if you actually watched the game.

Bradley and Arena were certainly better USMNT coaches, because they were able to instill some organization and discipline in the way the squad played which allowed them to be competitive against more skilled opponents. Klinsmann could be a good coach for a squad with talent to burn, but I think the experiment has run its course and it's time to move on. To make it more Stanford relevant, Arena : poor man's Montgomery :: Klinsmann : Dawkins

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - washingtonismoney - 06-25-2016

To get back on the original subject of the thread -- Jordan Morris -- I'm watching him play New York right now on TV. He's had some impressive back-to-goal moments so far, which would be a new skill for him. Previously my critique of him -- maybe Klinsmann's too* -- is that he could be a bit too monodimensional in his game: fast, aggressive, but not able to do some of the little things. If Morris is able to play with his back to goal he can play as the sole center forward in a 4-3-3, which allows his team to play with more variety.

* At least judging by this interview: http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-q-a-with-jurgen-klinsmann-ahead-of-the-copa-america-1464907320

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - washingtonismoney - 06-25-2016

Nice little mini-documentary on Jordan Morris's first half-year: http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/06/23/jordan-morris-mls-insider-presented-adidas?autoplay=true

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - Stymie - 06-26-2016

As an American living in Europe for the past 27 years, I am forced to watch football (soccer), as 80-90% of all media coverage here (print and TV) of sport revolves around soccer, all year round....

Right now I'm watching the round to 16 in UEFA's Europe 2016, and several aspects of how the "beautiful game" is played over here are anathema to me, and probably to most American sports afficionados, specifically:  Shirt grabbing, Holding, Choking, Elbowing, Diving, Subtle "hand balls"; Verbal and physical intimidation of referees; Kicking and stomping on the ankles of other players; Moaning when caught red-handed; etc., etc., etc........

Referees have given up (or been told to give up) most non-lethal infractions of this "non-contact" game.  As a result, it is not a game for young men (unless you are a Messi or Bale or Ronaldo--and/or have grown up trained in this cynical structure, as most non-American players have not).  As talented he is, Morris would have been eaten alive (or languished in reserve squad matches) if he had signed for Werder Bremen, and he probably realised that after a few weeks in training.  My guess is that Klinsmann understood well that Jordan needed to be toughened up in order to reach higher levels of performance, in world-class terms, but Jordan didn't want to make the mental and physical sacrifices which were entailed in the WB opportunity.

PS-as many of you may know, Klinsmann was a world-class diver.  When he went to Spurs in the EPL, opposing fans would hold up cards with 5.8, 5.7, 6.0, 5.5 etc. every time he dived.  JK got back a bit by adopting the dive as his goal scoring celebration.  See below, and don't skip to the end of the video as it shows some of the great talent that existed 20+ years ago in the EPL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luHMIIM8Sys

Stymie

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - SUBuddha - 06-26-2016

Stymie-
As a rugby coach once told me. Soccer is a gentleman's game played by thugs, Rugby is a hooligans game played by gentlemen.

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - Stymie - 06-26-2016

(06-26-2016, 12:44 PM)SUBuddha link Wrote:Stymie-
As a rugby coach once told me. Soccer is a gentleman's game played by thugs, Rugby is a hooligans game played by gentlemen.

Yes, SUBuddha.

I was told the same thing in 1968 by my first rugby coach, a guy from New Zealand called Wilson Whinerary, who was a legendary All Black captain.  Wilson added an important codicil to that Corinthian thought, to the effect of:  "If somebody does something dirty to your team mate, all bets are off."  I played on the 2nd XV for our team in the 4 months I knew Wilson, and was watching the 1st team play once where one of our guys was stomped on the ground.  A few minutes later, someone kicked the ball down field and I saw Wilson move over to run next to the "stomper" and when he came parallel to him he raised his right elbow and clipped the stomper on the chin without changing his stride. The poor guy never saw it coming and arose quickly and sorely and informed as to how rugby ought to have been played.

Those were the days....

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - Nan3cy - 06-26-2016

(06-26-2016, 12:44 PM)SUBuddha link Wrote:Stymie-
As a rugby coach once told me. Soccer is a gentleman's game played by thugs, Rugby is a hooligans game played by gentlemen.

That reminds me of a quote I heard many years ago (probably when I was getting divorced) that criminal court is full of bad people on their best behavior, while family court is full of good people acting their worst.



Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - Mick - 06-27-2016

(06-26-2016, 02:30 PM)Nan3cy link Wrote:[quote author=SUBuddha link=topic=15084.msg165580#msg165580 date=1466970260]
Stymie-
As a rugby coach once told me. Soccer is a gentleman's game played by thugs, Rugby is a hooligans game played by gentlemen.

That reminds me of a quote I heard many years ago (probably when I was getting divorced) that criminal court is full of bad people on their best behavior, while family court is full of good people acting their worst.
[/quote]

My brother, who practiced family law for four years before becoming a public defender, would absolutely 100% agree with that statement.

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - BostonCard - 06-27-2016

FWIW, Chile beat Argentina, to win the Copa America, and we lost to Colombia (again) in the third place match.  Fourth is not bad, but hardly a breakthrough for the USMNT.

BC

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - BostonCard - 06-27-2016

Damn, how about Iceland in the Euro Cup!  Guess England took the Brexit thing literally.

BC

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - fullmetal - 06-28-2016

Saw the first 30' of the game; turns out that was all anyone needed to see.  Iceland played like it had nothing to lose, and England played with the burden of expectations and on-paper talent.  Crazy game.

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - Stymie - 07-03-2016

(06-27-2016, 02:49 PM)Boston Card link Wrote:Damn, how about Iceland in the Euro Cup!  Guess England took the Brexit thing literally.

BC

The immediate fall out in England was the resignation of their coach.  Guess who is currently the leading favorite of the bookies for his replacement?  Hint:  his first name is Jurgen.........

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - washingtonismoney - 07-03-2016

Nice goal from Morris last night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oWbNvP5S3E

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - Leftcoast - 07-03-2016

Wow ... Morris looks a lot stronger and bigger than he did at Stanford.  Has that impacted his quickness?  If so, it didn't show on that clip.

Re: Morris left out of Copa America team - washingtonismoney - 07-03-2016

(07-03-2016, 01:36 PM)leftcoast link Wrote:Wow ... Morris looks a lot stronger and bigger than he did at Stanford.  Has that impacted his quickness?  If so, it didn't show on that clip.

I think you're right -- but I haven't noticed any difference in his speed.