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Re: OT: Giants outfield - wallendar - 01-20-2018

Parker is out of options and Slater has at least one left.  Therefore, if it comes down to those two guys, look for SF to send Slater to Sacto and keep Parker.  Hernandez is a lock for the fourth OF slot unless he falls apart in the spring.

Of course, if Slater blows up in the spring or if SF acquires a CF between now and spring, all bets are off. 

Re: OT: Giants outfield - lex24 - 01-21-2018

Plus Parker provides some left handed power off the bench. I’d rather keep Slater anyway. Parker is 28. AAAA Guy. Slater has some potential. But I think  you are right. Hernandez and Parker are 4-5. Williamson has played himself out of the mix.

(01-20-2018, 07:37 PM)wallendar link Wrote:Parker is out of options and Slater has at least one left.  Therefore, if it comes down to those two guys, look for SF to send Slater to Sacto and keep Parker.  Hernandez is a lock for the fourth OF slot unless he falls apart in the spring.

Of course, if Slater blows up in the spring or if SF acquires a CF between now and spring, all bets are off.


Re: OT: Giants outfield - BobK - 01-21-2018

Again, LOL I believe Shaw is in the mix and if not in April then by June. 

Re: OT: Giants outfield - OutsiderFan - 01-21-2018

Did you know? Everyone's favorite Giants prospect, Heliot Ramos, after being picked by the Giants in last year's draft:

Asked to name his favorite player, Ramos cited Pittsburgh's Andrew McCutchen. "He hustles and has fun. I like that," Ramos said.

His goal is to make the majors by age 20, and it's doubtful McCutchen will be on the Giants then, but Ramos will more than likely get to meet McCutchen in Spring training, right?

Re: OT: Giants outfield - Mick - 01-21-2018

Of note, Jarrett Parker is in Arizona and has been there for quite a while.  He is aware, I think, that this is his last big chance.

Two interesting bits of Giants trivia:

1)  Only six times in history has an MLB team gone from above 85 wins to below 70 wins then back above 85 wins in three consecutive years.  The most recent was the 2016 Tigers, but they hit 211 home runs.

2)  Last year, the Giants average age for hitters was fifth in the majors at 29.5.  For Pitchers, it was eighth at 28.9.  Since the Giants lost so few players, and all their players are a year older, and they added McCutchen and Longoria, it is likely that they will have the oldest average age in pro baseball.  Last year, only one of the oldest six teams (washington) made the playoffs, but four of the next seven won their division (Chicago, Dodgers, Houston & Cleveland).  All of them averaged between 28.5 and 29.0 average age.

(01-21-2018, 12:57 AM)lex24 link Wrote:Plus Parker provides some left handed power off the bench. I’d rather keep Slater anyway. Parker is 28. AAAA Guy. Slater has some potential. But I think  you are right. Hernandez and Parker are 4-5. Williamson has played himself out of the mix.

[quote author=wallendar link=topic=18541.msg221974#msg221974 date=1516502229]
Parker is out of options and Slater has at least one left.  Therefore, if it comes down to those two guys, look for SF to send Slater to Sacto and keep Parker.  Hernandez is a lock for the fourth OF slot unless he falls apart in the spring.

Of course, if Slater blows up in the spring or if SF acquires a CF between now and spring, all bets are off.
[/quote]

Re: OT: Giants outfield - lex24 - 01-21-2018

I hope Shaw is deserving of your praise!  Left handed power is a good thing. But I think the only way Shaw gets up is if Pence or McCutcheon gets hurt.  Which I hope does not happen.

I say that because I think they view Shaw more highly as a prospect than they do Slater. So they are going to want Shaw getting more ABs and being an everyday player.

I think there is a solid chance he is the opening day left fielder in ‘19.

(01-21-2018, 12:29 PM)BobK link Wrote:Again, LOL I believe Shaw is in the mix and if not in April then by June.


Re: OT: Giants outfield - Phogge - 01-21-2018

Nobody in baseball history played a shallower CF than Speaker. I believe he still leads the majors in unassisted double plays by an outfielder. Probably threw some games too.

Re: OT: Giants outfield - Mick - 01-21-2018

Shaw is basically Brandon Belt.  He doesn't have the speed to play any outfield slot but left, though he has a strong arm.  He has a long, looping, lefty swing, like Belt.  He walked 20 times and struck out 106 in 336 AAA at bats.

His line was .289/.328/.530/.858 in AAA.  He had 25 doubles and 18 home runs.  One triple, too.  No stolen bases.

(01-21-2018, 02:39 PM)lex24 link Wrote:I hope Shaw is deserving of your praise!  Left handed power is a good thing. But I think the only way Shaw gets up is if Pence or McCutcheon gets hurt.  Which I hope does not happen.

I say that because I think they view Shaw more highly as a prospect than they do Slater. So they are going to want Shaw getting more ABs and being an everyday player.

I think there is a solid chance he is the opening day left fielder in ‘19.

[quote author=BobK link=topic=18541.msg222006#msg222006 date=1516562995]
Again, LOL I believe Shaw is in the mix and if not in April then by June.
[/quote]

Re: OT: Giants outfield - Mick - 01-21-2018

(01-21-2018, 02:43 PM)Phogge link Wrote:Nobody in baseball history played a shallower CF than Speaker. I believe he still leads the majors in unassisted double plays by an outfielder. Probably threw some games too.

You're dead right, Phog.  I compared six center fielders with each other (Speaker, Mays, Griffey, DiMaggio, Cobb and Mantle) and compared their core metrics on a per-inning-played-at-center-field basis in four major categories; fielding percentage, errors, chances, putouts, assists, double plays and range factor (who had the most chances compared with the rest of the league in their careers).  All of the comments below are on a per-inning basis.

Mantle stuck out as not being worthy of that group.  He easily had the poorest range factor and accepted the second fewest chances besides Cobb.  Cobb had the fewest putouts per inning and the most errors per inning.  he had the lowest fielding percentage, but of course, he and Speaker had the terrible fielding gloves that the others didn't.

Speaker easily had the most double plays with 143, with Cobb second most at 105, most likely a sign of the times.  Speaker had the most errors, Cobb had the second most.  the older era outfielders had 2.5x the number of double plays that mays had, 3x what Griffey and DiMaggio had.

Speaker played his entire career in the dead ball era, Cobb played 2/3 of his career in the dead ball era.

The delta between range factor of the player and average range factor for the league at that position was Speaker beating out Mays by a whisker.  Both Cobb and Mantle failed in that regard.  DiMaggio actually had the highest range factor, but the league range factor at the time was so high for CFs, that his delta wasn't that much.  Delta's by greatest difference with league average over career was:

Speaker, .56
Mays, .51
Dimaggio, .33
Griffey, .24
Cobb, .22
Mantle, -.35

Other good outfielders: there was a 10 year player named Douthit in the 1920s and 1930s who had a career .68 difference between league range factor and his own.  Best I've been able to find.  Richie Ashburn's was pretty good at .35 for center fielders.  Max Carey's was similar.  Both Carey and Ashburn led the league in most POs nine seasons, Speaker led the league in seven seasons.  Mays was first only twice, but was second eight times.  Don't forget, Mays missed two seasons in the military.

Fewest errors on average were Griffey's, so he had the highest fielding percentage.

Chances accepted per inning were:

Speaker, .314
Mays, .302
Griffey, .293
DiMaggio, .292
Mantle, .281
Cobb, .271

For me, it's Tris Speaker, best fielder ever, with Mays second.

P. S....Speaker holds the record with unassisted double plays with six.  He had two unassisted double plays in a season twice, that's the record for an OF.  he had 139 total DPs as a CF.

Re: OT: Giants outfield - lex24 - 01-21-2018

Can’t compare. Speaker could play incredibly shallow cause of the dead ball. Mays didn’t have that luxury. Still, Willie played awfully shallow.

(01-21-2018, 03:24 PM)Mick link Wrote:[quote author=Phogge link=topic=18541.msg222013#msg222013 date=1516571017]
Nobody in baseball history played a shallower CF than Speaker. I believe he still leads the majors in unassisted double plays by an outfielder. Probably threw some games too.

You're dead right, Phog.  I compared six center fielders with each other (Speaker, Mays, Griffey, DiMaggio, Cobb and Mantle) and compared their core metrics on a per-inning-played-at-center-field basis in four major categories; fielding percentage, errors, chances, putouts, assists, double plays and range factor (who had the most chances compared with the rest of the league in their careers).  All of the comments below are on a per-inning basis.

Mantle stuck out as not being worthy of that group.  He easily had the poorest range factor and accepted the second fewest chances besides Cobb.  Cobb had the fewest putouts per inning and the most errors per inning.  he had the lowest fielding percentage, but of course, he and Speaker had the terrible fielding gloves that the others didn't.

Speaker easily had the most double plays with 143, with Cobb second most at 105, most likely a sign of the times.  Speaker had the most errors, Cobb had the second most.  the older era outfielders had 2.5x the number of double plays that mays had, 3x what Griffey and DiMaggio had.

Speaker played his entire career in the dead ball era, Cobb played 2/3 of his career in the dead ball era.

The delta between range factor of the player and average range factor for the league at that position was Speaker beating out Mays by a whisker.  Both Cobb and Mantle failed in that regard.  DiMaggio actually had the highest range factor, but the league range factor at the time was so high for CFs, that his delta wasn't that much.  Delta's by greatest difference with league average over career was:

Speaker, .56
Mays, .51
Dimaggio, .33
Griffey, .24
Cobb, .22
Mantle, -.35

Other good outfielders: there was a 10 year player named Douthit in the 1920s and 1930s who had a career .68 difference between league range factor and his own.  Best I've been able to find.  Richie Ashburn's was pretty good at .35 for center fielders.  Max Carey's was similar.  Both Carey and Ashburn led the league in most POs nine seasons, Speaker led the league in seven seasons.  Mays was first only twice, but was second eight times.  Don't forget, Mays missed two seasons in the military.

Fewest errors on average were Griffey's, so he had the highest fielding percentage.

Chances accepted per inning were:

Speaker, .314
Mays, .302
Griffey, .293
DiMaggio, .292
Mantle, .281
Cobb, .271

For me, it's Tris Speaker, best fielder ever, with Mays second.

P. S....Speaker holds the record with unassisted double plays with six.  He had two unassisted double plays in a season twice, that's the record for an OF.  he had 139 total DPs as a CF.
[/quote]

Re: OT: Giants outfield - terry - 01-21-2018

Very interesting analysis. Thanks.

How does Andruw Jones compare?

Re: OT: Giants outfield - Mick - 01-21-2018

(01-21-2018, 03:49 PM)terry link Wrote:Very interesting analysis. Thanks.

How does Andruw Jones compare?

Andruw's very good.  Compared just to the six earlier-age centerfielders, and on the plus side, he had both the highest overall fielding percentage at 99.2%, and the biggest delta between league percentage (98.7%) and his own fielding percentage.  He had the fewest errors by a significant margin on a per-inning basis, about 2/3 of Ken Griffey's rate.  And his putouts per inning are second to Tris Speaker, just ahead of mays (.315 to .309 to .302), but center fielders have become so strong in the current era that the delta between Jones' range factor of 2.76 and the league range factor of 2.58 is only .18, which would list him second to last (only to Mantle).

He had the most putouts for six years, the most assists for three years among his peers.  But he's only 47th in career range factor, and just 24th in center fielding career fielding percentage.  The guys who had the great range factors were Gary Pettis, Dwayne Murphy, Darrin Erstad, Eddie Milner and Paul Blair.  They are the top five since 1948.  Denard Span is #78, speedster Billy Hamilton of the Reds is #91.  Recently acquired Andrew McCutchen is #126.  A good fit for a corner spot... :P

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/range_factor_per_nine_cf_career.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/fielding_perc_cf_career.shtml

Andruw is a very good centerfielder, better than Mantle but a cut below the others, I think.

Re: OT: Giants outfield - qwerty49 - 01-22-2018

Great analysis, Mick. I somehow always thought Cobb was a corner OF.

Did Garry Maddox show up in the stats?

Re: OT: Giants outfield - Mick - 01-22-2018

(01-22-2018, 12:36 AM)qwerty49 link Wrote:Great analysis, Mick. I somehow always thought Cobb was a corner OF.

Did Garry Maddox show up in the stats?

Cobb played 207 games in RF and 15 games in LF, along with three games at P, 2 games at 2B and 1 game at 1B.  The remainder of his 2,934 games were at CF.

Maddox was #10 all time in range factor, #145 all time in fielding percentage.

Re: OT: Giants outfield - slide - 01-22-2018

Mick -- had you read this series? 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/47297-move-over-barry-bonds-thats-why-i-play-in-center-field-part-iii

I'd read a couple other pieces mentioning the 2-8 PO with Speaker covering second.  still laugh to think about it.

Re: OT: Giants outfield - lex24 - 01-22-2018

If you are interested in Cobb read Lershens book “ Ty Cobb, aTerrible Beauty.”  It May change your perspective on the man a bit. Not a peach (pun intended) by any stretch of the imagination. But far from the raging bigot he’s been made out to be. According to Lershen much of that view was based on a biography (and excerpts printed from it) that contained downright lies. By no means does he make Cobb. Out to be a prince. But it is an interesting read. Plus some of the baseball stories are hilarious.

BTW the hazing of rookies in those days was brutal. Something that seemed to have an impact on Cobb.

One story - Cobb learned that his mother  had killed his father during his first days in the majors. Some say she murdered him cause he was cheating on her. Others say she mistook him for a burglar.  Obviously it had an impact on Cobb.

Finally you get a sense of how brilliant he was as a player. Something that gets lost a bit in the absurd movie portrayals. Most notably Cobb. Which was based in part on that biography and also contained stories that were simply false.
Cobb was the first great Southern ball player. Painting him as a virulent racist fit their view.



Re: OT: Giants outfield - Mick - 01-22-2018

(01-22-2018, 05:40 AM)slide link Wrote:Mick -- had you read this series? 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/47297-move-over-barry-bonds-thats-why-i-play-in-center-field-part-iii

I'd read a couple other pieces mentioning the 2-8 PO with Speaker covering second.  still laugh to think about it.

Great series.  That 2-8 PO was probably a lot more common in the dead ball era.

I'd forgotten that Duffy Lewis and Harry Hooper were in the outfield with Speaker.  Lewis was from San Francisco, Hooper was from Gilroy.  Hooper the right fielder led the league in putouts seven straight years -- just like Speaker.  Lewis (in left) wasn't the fielder that the other two were, but he was better than average.

Re: OT: Giants outfield - BobK - 01-22-2018

He’s not Speaker Mays or Maddox but the Giants signed Austin Jackson

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jacksau01.shtml

Re: OT: Giants outfield - OutsiderFan - 01-22-2018

Austin Jackson is a solid stop-gap signing for CF.  Still hope Duggar gets some looks.

Re: OT: Giants outfield - wallendar - 01-22-2018

...and the Giants succeeded in staying under the luxury tax limit.  Well done, Bobby Evans.....