WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - Printable Version
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RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - martyup - 12-01-2022
I saw Lepolo dribble drive and pull up for a mid-range jumper a few times over the past several games. She hit those shots too. I also saw her drive to the hoop for layups when they didn't guard her.
She'll keep defenders honest. Like Johnny said, we want her to get the ball to our star players. We should be be overjoyed that she has filled this position of need so well as a freshman. She held her own bringing the ball up the court against the #1 team in the country.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - BobK - 12-01-2022
Thank you Marty and John. Goodness it’s like we have this new coach and we need to tell her how to coach
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - cardfan1996 - 12-01-2022
We have a Hall of Fame Coach of course but certainly no one here thinks strong point guard play has been a hallmark of Stanford’s program for the last 40 years or so with few exceptions. Certainly some criticism is warranted. All I am saying is that the Marta-led Notre Dame team resulted in Muffet crying publicly several times and her eventual retirement. Whatever you think of Muffet, she produced some of the most dynamic and beautiful offensive teams in WBB history, and not even her brilliant offensive mind could engineer an offensive juggernaut with a non-shooting point guard.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - BostonCard - 12-01-2022
Stanford is 10th in the country in scoring and sixth in the country in scoring margin. We are seventh in field goal percentage.
On the other hand, we are 16th in the country in opponent's PPG, so to the extent that there is something to focus on, I'd look at our defense.
As a basis of comparison, we have a better scoring offense than South Carolina, but a worse scoring defense.
BC
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - BosCard - 12-01-2022
I think a better comparable for Lepolo is Nika Muhl at UConn. Both are somewhat reluctant shooters but they both push the ball up the court so quickly with their handle and long passes. And there is nothing wrong with UConn’s offense this year, they score a ton.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - TonyLima - 12-01-2022
FWIW Stanford - Santa Clara is now on Youtube. With bonus junior womens bb footage.
Update 9 pm left coast time. The audio is dreadful. Will fix it Friday. Not taking it down now.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - cardfan1996 - 12-01-2022
Nika is a defensive POY in her conference, has double digit assists against Top 10 opponents, is a 34% 3-pt shooter (not great but ~10% higher than Lepolo) and UConn has a better offensive system overall (emphasizes moving and cutting and screening). UConn without Paige will beat their 4th Top 10 team when they likely beat Notre Dame on Sunday. Stanford has played only won Top 10 team this year and lost with what can only be described as a historical collapse (up 4 with under 30 seconds?). I think you should aim lower than Nika Muhl but I doubt UConn wins it all this year so my point remains. Next year is another story . . .
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - TheWildJacko - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 08:03 PM)cardfan1996 Wrote: We have a Hall of Fame Coach of course but certainly no one here thinks strong point guard play has been a hallmark of Stanford’s program for the last 40 years or so with few exceptions.
Speak for yourself please, you don’t represent everyone here. We’ve had plenty of strong point guards over the years:
Jennifer Azzi
Sonja Henning
Kate Paye
Jamila Wideman
Milena Flores
Jamie Carey (pre-injuries/transfer)
Susan King-Borchardt
J.J. Hones
Jeanette Pohlen
Amber Orrange
Kiana Williams
to name a few. Maybe your definition of strong is different than mine. If you mean Sue Bird-level, well that just doesn’t come around that often.
We’ve had a ton of bad luck with injuries with respect to point guards, and we‘ve also had some very strong point guards on teams where our play at other positions was not that strong. It takes a lot of elements coming together at the right time, plus a lot of luck, to win a championship.
I think your take on Lepolo is premature at best. You have no idea how she will develop—none of us do. You also have no idea what our ceiling is this year, because neither you nor anyone else can predict the future. Injuries could happen, to us or to other teams (knock on wood that they don’t in either case). A cinderella team could come out of nowhere and knock off UCONN or S. Carolina before we ever see them in the NCAA’s. Heck, Utah’s offense looks formidable this year—they could surprise a lot of teams. We just don’t know. BTW, I am not as convinced as you are that UCONN doesn’t have what it takes to win it all this year. They haven’t flinched yet, and they’ve had to deal with more adversity than most so far this season.
IMO, Lepolo has performed admirably in both wins and losses this season, and if I have have any misgivings about the prospects of our team this season, they don’t revolve around her playing. I want to see Tara give Betts more of a chance. Less than a minute in a game is ridiculous—I’ve never seen any #1 recruit ride the bench like she does. I’d like to see more Bosgana and more Nivar, but not because I don’t like Lepolo’s playing—I just think they add value and deserve more minutes, and Lepolo probably could use more rest.
I just don’t see the same problems you do with Lepolo; as others have pointed out, she is driving, she is hitting pull-up jumpers, she is hitting the occasional 3. If she were hitting multiple 3’s a game we’d probably be scoring 90+ a game, but as it is we’re scoring 85.6 pts/game, which btw would qualify for #4 all time in single-season scoring averages, tied with our 1991-1992 championship team. For a more modern comparison, our 2021 championship team scored 77.7 pts/game. Not saying I wouldn’t be happy with her taking and hitting more 3’s, just that we’re objectively scoring plenty already.
Defensively, we’re currently holding opponents to 52.3 points per game. That’s objectively fantastic; on a single-season basis, it would rank #2 all-time, ahead of our 2021 championship team which held teams to 53.7 ppg. The #1 spot, btw, belongs to the 2012-2013 team which lost in the S16 to Georgia (they only averaged 70ppg offensively).
So we are, currently, a top 5 team offensively and a top 2 team defensively with respect to past Stanford teams, although it’s early days, obviously, with two #1 recruits and a #3 recruit plus several other top recruits, and a freshman point guard who has proven she can distribute effectively to those highly ranked players. Given the pieces this team has, I choose to remain optimistic that we can go as far as we want this season, and I will look forward to seeing how the games play out rather than writing out the future in my head beforehand.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - TheFarm07 - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 07:46 PM)BobK Wrote: Thank you Marty and John. Goodness it’s like we have this new coach and we need to tell her how to coach
I am a big Tara fan and thank our lucky stars that we have her as our coach and hope she stays our coach for a long time, but no one is infallible. Even HoF coaches are not perfect and they may not be as strong in some areas relatively speaking to other parts of the game where they excel in.
And this is mild criticism supported by observations and reasoning on specific issues or problems. You would not want to be a part of a sports chat I am a part of, where coaches are called idiots and cowards on a regular basis and players and teams stink when they have one bad game.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - 2006alum - 12-02-2022
With fans like these, who needs foes? Sheesh. Last month we were despairing that we were doomed without a PG. Now we have one, but we're despairing that she isn't putting out massive offensive production 10 games into her college career.
In my 12+ years watching Tara teams closely, I cannot ever recall Tara handing the keys to the offense to a freshman PG from game one of their freshman year. Amber Orrange didn't start until midway through her freshman season. Kiana Williams didn't start until midway through her freshman season. Candice Wiggins is the only one I can recall who started from day one, and she was always more of a do-everything combo guard than a pure PG.
BTW: Nika Muhl was a much more highly recruited than Lepolo, but even she has only really come into her own the past season or so, thanks in part to Geno's truly exceptional ability to develop his players season over season.
And here's the comparison of their freshman stats:
Muhl: 4.9 PTS .381 FG% .343 3PT% 2.6 A 1.9 TO
Lepolo: 4.1 PTS .472 FG% .250 3PT% 5.7 A 2.1 TO
So Lepolo has a better shooting percentage overall, twice the assists, roughly comparable turnovers, 1 point less per game, and the only category she's weaker at is treys.
Yes, we will obviously want more offensive production from Lepolo in an ideal world. But every team has weaknesses, and we knew all along that missing out on Olivia Miles and Kiki Rice was going to leave us thinner at the point. Given what we've got to work with, I am just so thankful she's been able to pick up from Lacie and Anna and generate the same number of assists in 10 games that Wilson generated in 35 games.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - triangle2 - 12-02-2022
I'm surprised at the amount of teeth gnashing going on so don't want to contribute to it. But, there's not been a lot of discussion here about the rotation and figuring out the second unit. If anyone subscribes to the Athletic, there's been quite a few articles discussing the Warriors and their problems getting the second unit to, well, not suck. Curry is having to play 34+ minutes a game, and the +/- for the bench is dreadful. For Stanford, with a pretty new starting five, the pre-conference season is all about figuring out combinations, substitution patterns, and who plays well together. Coach Tara doesn't have Kerr's problem. Her second unit would probably win most of the conference games and make it to the the tournament. The problem she has is figuring out what to do for the 6-7 games in the season when they play a physically talented team that forces the rotation to shrink.
I honestly don't care if the team didn't smush Santa Clara, or gave up too many points to Hawaii, or that Jones looks like she's on autopilot right now in some of the games where the other team is going to struggle to score 45 points. I care about the staff getting the time to see what's going to work when the going gets substantially tougher and they're playing a South Carolina/UConn/Louisville, or maybe UCLA/Oregon/Arizona. The Warriors know that losing to Dallas in November doesn't mean bleep as long as they're ready to roll in the spring. (Obviously, for them, if they don't get the second unit stabilized, they're in big trouble.)
Worrying about whether this team is ready for a National Championship is a counterproductive narrative in November/December when we have two players who are new to the starting lineup (Iriafen and Lepolo) and one (Jump) who started early last year but then came out of the starting lineup in the 2nd half of the season.
We know a few things from Coach Tara's history, and we already know a bunch of stuff that we didn't know in October:
1) We know that if you can't play defense you don't get on the floor. We also know that unless you are the team's primary or secondary options, you don't get to turn the ball over a lot. Coach Tara wants kids on the floor who are prepared to play. We've seen for decades that if you miss a defensive assignment, turn the ball over, or stupidly foul, you are on the express lane to the bench. Players who create their own shots get more leeway on the turnovers, but we've seen from the post-game pressers that Coach Tara still isn't happy about the turnovers from creative players.
2) Lepolo compares pretty favorably to our history of freshman point guards. Having watched nearly the entire history of Stanford point guards, I have basically no heartburn about Lepolo. Personally, I think she's got great upside, and in the history of the program, we've maybe had 2-3 PG's with her handle, passing ability, and ability to run the break. I'm a fan. She's got her spots, can pull up, drive and it's not like she isn't taking a few 3's.
Check out the historical Freshman year PG stats (Some of these players didn't really play enough to say that they were playing PG, and I included a couple of players like Pohlen who didn't play PG as a freshman but switched later out of necessity.) Ros, Susan King, and Lindy were sometimes only ostensibly PG's. I omitted players who had a cup of coffee freshman year particularly if they never ended up playing meaningful PG minutes.
Jennifer Azzi (86-87): 27 starts, 31.9 mpg, 9.1 ppg, pre 3-pt line, 100 rebounds, 165 assists to 106 turnovers and 46 steals.
Molly Goodenbour (89-90): no starts, 8.2 mpg, 2.7 ppg, 10 3-pt FG, 19 rebounds, 28 assists to 29 turnovers, and 10 steals.
Kate Paye (91-92): 1 start, 8.9 mpg, 1.7 ppg, 2 3-pt FG, 40 rebounds, 23 assists to 29 turnovers, and 14 steals.
Jamilla Wideman (93-94): 29 starts, 27 mpg, 6.1 ppg, 9 3-pt FG, 86 rebounds, 134 assists to 74 turnovers and 49 steals.
Milena Flores (96-97): 2 starts, 13.8 mpg, 2.7 ppg, 5 3-pt FG, 29 rebounds, 48 assists to 22 turnovers and 12 steals.
Susan King (00-01): (injury year?) 9 starts, 31.6 mpg, 11.3 ppg, 11 3-pt FG, 25 rebounds, 46 assists to 19 turnovers and 10 steals IN 9 GAMES
Kelley Suminski (01-02): 27 starts, 24.4 mpg, 7.6 ppg, 38 3-pt FG, 69 rebounds, 93 assists to 62 turnovers and 21 steals.
Clare Bodensteiner (03-04): 0 starts, 5.4 mpg, 1.6 ppg, 2 3-pt FG, 11 rebounds, 10 assists to 12 turnovers and 3 steals.
Candice Wiggins (04-05): 34 starts, 26.9 mpg, 17.5 ppg, 36 3-pt FG, 188 rebounds, 99 assists to 103 turnovers and 85 steals. Obviously, not always PG.
JJ Hones (06-07): 20 starts, 24.3 mpg, 4.5 ppg, 14 3-pt FG, 41 rebounds, 90 assists to 32 turnovers, and 28 steals.
Ros Gold-Onwude (07-08): 33 starts, 21.8 mpg, 5.0 ppg, 34 3-pt FG, 98 rebounds, 85 assists to 76 turnovers, and 29 steals - not always playing PG.
Jeanette Pohlen (07-08): 0 starts, 19.3 mpg, 4.6 ppg, 18 3-pt FG, 113 rebounds, 76 assists to 57 turnovers, and 26 steals - not playing PG this year.
Lindy La Rocque (08-09): 1 start, 10.9 mpg, 3.5 ppg, 37 3-pt FG, 26 rebounds, 39 assists to 20 turnovers, and 18 steals - not really a PG.
Toni Kokenis (10-11): 2 starts, 17.0 mpg, 5.3 ppg, 17 3-pt FG, 53 rebounds, 44 assists to 43 turnovers, and 30 steals - more of a shooting 2.
Amber Orange (11-12): 23 starts, 19.7 mpg, 4.8 ppg, 3 3-pt FG, 99 rebounds, 112 assists to 57 turnovers, and 40 steals.
Briana Roberson (13-14): 1 start, 6.6 mpg, 1.6 ppg, 3 3-pt FG, 13 rebounds, 9 assists to 12 turnovers, and 3 steals. Not much playing PG if any that year.
Marta Sniezek (15-16): 9 starts, 18.7 mpg, 2.9 ppg, 4 3-pt FG, 56 rebounds, 109 assists to 63 turnovers and 21 steals.
Anna Wilson (16-17): 0 starts, 8.0 mpg, 2.8 ppg, 4 3-pt FG, 6 rebounds, 5 assists to 7 turnovers, and 3 steals.
Kiana Williams (17-18): 26 starts, 25.7 mpg, 10.4 ppg, 71 3-pt FG, 58 rebounds, 67 assists to 40 turnovers and 30 steals. Sniezek was mostly playing PG this year.
Jana Van Gytenbeek (20-21) 0 starts, 8.4 mpg, 2.1 ppg, 13 3-pt FG, 8 rebounds, 32 assists to 14 turnovers and 8 steals.
Talana Lepolo through 10 games: 7 starts, 26.2 mpg, 4.1 ppg, 3 3-pt FG, 20 rebounds, 57 assists to 21 turnovers and 10 steals.
Honestly, this looks pretty darn good to me, particularly since that we spent the entire off-season worrying about Jones having to bring the ball up this year. It seems obvious to me that one measure of Lepolo's success is that South Carolina didn't make any concerted effort to full court press - something that I'm fairly convinced would have happened if Jones actually had to play PG.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - triangle2 - 12-02-2022
2. Nivar looks like a scoring combo guard. Her handle is pretty good, but she's does not seem to be instinctively a PG. She could bring the ball up against a team that wasn't pressing, but I think she looks like a scorer in waiting. Great offensive midset.
3. I'm not convinced that Coach Tara thinks that Harriel has developed enough to get more minutes playing PG. I probably agree at this point, but she's a player who could see more minutes if she improves over the season.
4. Bosgana is having a breakout year even though part of the problem is that Jump ends up taking her minutes. This raises an interesting issue for next year if Jump comes back for a COVID year. Bosgana has good length and can defend quicker players even though she's still not always positionally sound, her outside shot looks vastly improved, and she can drive to the basket. Would love to see her get more regular rotation minutes.
5. Betts is being played situationally because she's a defensive liability when guarding someone who can run on her. Imagine for instance if she had to guard Brink. Brink would destroy her up and down the court. She'll get good minutes against teams where she can post-up inside and defend a bigger player. Again, so much upside here.
6. Demetre also has some lateral mobility issues, but generally speaking, she's a great shooter. She and Betts are currently unable to match up defensively against some players. So, when the rotation shrinks against a talented team, the rotation looks like Brink, Jump, Iriafen, Jones, Lepolo, Belibi, and Nivar. All of those players can be on the floor against basically all teams. Arguably, Bosgana is moving into the rotation. Emma-Nnopu is getting hustle minutes but is still offensively challenged and a little shaky when she has to put the ball on the floor. Prechtel, Betts, and Demetre get rotation minutes if they match up well. Prechtel is the most interesting because she can play 30 minutes or 5 depending on the situation. We know she's a difference maker when her shot is falling, and she sets big screens better than pretty much anyone else.
7. I don't think Coach Tara will be unhappy if 2 seniors return for their COVID year.
8. The coaches haven't figured out some substitution problems: (a) if teams can shut Jump down, what combination of players gives us another outside shooter? (b) why does the offense go stagnant sometimes? © when Brink goes to the bench, what's the most effective group that maintains an inside presence and can score? (d) Which combination of players works best to allow Jones to attack the basket without getting doubled? (e) the rotation is much shorter and precarious when a quick athletic team mostly forces Prechtel, Betts, and Demetre to the bench. Which other players need to contribute more? (f) this year, can we avoid the 3rd quarter meltdowns? To me, I think developing Nivar into a more reliable scorer and giving Bosgana situational minutes to be creative are the most interesting solutions to some of these questions.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - TheFarm07 - 12-02-2022
Wow, the overreaction to pointing out things that we wished the team could improve on and a little wishful thinking on what could have been -- isn't that what being a sports fan is all about?
I have confidence in this team, I think we have the potential to win every single game we play against any foe - including South Carolina. I think we've got the talent, experience and skill to win the Pac-12 conference regular season and tournament. I'll go as far as I feel like another undefeated conference record is not too big of an ask and I certainly think that we can not only make a deep run in the NCAA Tournament, but be the team cutting down the nets in Dallas in April.
I am proud to be a Stanford womens basketball fan, it's probably the team I follow the most among every of the teams/programs I follow (including pro ones) and it's usually the only one where I will re-arrange my schedule so I can watch as many games as possible, even games where we'll probably win by 30.
That doesn't mean I think that the team is perfect. I also know that to achieve these goals that everyone wants - from the coaches to the players to the fans, we'll have to play well and minimize our mistakes. As already shown in the South Carolina game, these unforced errors can be costly against an elite opponent.
I think we can certainly go far with Lepolo as our PG and as frustrated as I've been with Haley's questionable passes at times or Brink's tendency to foul, I feel fortunate to have them represent our team, program and alma mater.
We bring up these points, because opposing coaches will certainly be doing the same and as fans, we certainly can't do much about it. It's not like any of us have a direct line to Tara, but as sports fans have done, we find a forum to discuss and argue (hopefully respectfully) these issues and vent some of the anxiety or frustration we feel.
Given the success of the program and with the talent of this year's team, it's not unrealistic to have a goal of reaching another Final Four and returning home with the trophy. But we'll face stiff competition along the way. When we won the title two years ago, the last two games were decided by one point each. One seemingly insignificant mistake could have changed the outcome - it almost did with the last inbound play and we were fortunate that Boston who is usually money with those putback shots missed it.
I really appreciate all of the analyses and points that my fellow Cardboarders have brought up - bringing up perspectives I didn't consider, points I didn't think of and stats I were unaware of.
In conclusion, I hope those who are upset over this criticism know that we bring these points up not to troll or to be a downer after every win, but to express our desire for the team to improve.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - 81alum - 12-02-2022
Thanks to all for the fine research and plausible analysis--sometimes on both sides of what seems to be an ongoing point guard debate. A debate I find rather surprising.
As I've made plain, I am on the optimistic side regarding Lepolo and very pleased we have her, considering that our concerns about using Jones as a point guard were not without merit. I am especially pleased at Lepolo's improvement on defense.
I also am optimistic about Nivar, especially at the 2, but like Williams and others, it is entirely possible that she will also develop into a fine combo guard who could even take over the 1. She may have a greater upside but might not be there quite yet. She is going to be a starter, but how soon and in which slot will also depend on how the team around her develops.
Bosgana seems to me to be a natural 3, and could well take the Jones slot next year. She reminds me a little of McPhee--someone who can both drive, take the three, and has the length to defend. She is clearly backup to Jump at the 2 right now, and I think she has done a good job there. I'm especially impressed with her defensive development, something that isn't talked about enough.
Triangle2 nailed it with the analysis of Tara's philosophy, and the debate we are having is necessarily distorted since it is so much easier for fans to see scoring and assists than to evaluate defense. In her heart, Tara is a defensive-minded, ball-control coach. She recruits great offense but then teaches great defense. And right now our greatest weakness is defense--depending on the kind and quality of offense we meet. Eager to see how we do with Gonzaga.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - Baez87 - 12-02-2022
The old expression, "When the goin' gets tough, the tough gets going," certainly applies to our thread. The last few analyses are first rate!
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - BobK - 12-02-2022
Triangle 2 you rock. Thank you for that great 2 part awesome post
Defense wins championships turnovers don’t. Great coaches well most fans know this
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - chimera - 12-02-2022
(12-02-2022, 01:07 AM)triangle2 Wrote: 2. Nivar looks like a scoring combo guard. Her handle is pretty good, but she's does not seem to be instinctively a PG. She could bring the ball up against a team that wasn't pressing, but I think she looks like a scorer in waiting. Great offensive midset.
3. I'm not convinced that Coach Tara thinks that Harriel has developed enough to get more minutes playing PG. I probably agree at this point, but she's a player who could see more minutes if she improves over the season.
4. Bosgana is having a breakout year even though part of the problem is that Jump ends up taking her minutes. This raises an interesting issue for next year if Jump comes back for a COVID year. Bosgana has good length and can defend quicker players even though she's still not always positionally sound, her outside shot looks vastly improved, and she can drive to the basket. Would love to see her get more regular rotation minutes.
5. Betts is being played situationally because she's a defensive liability when guarding someone who can run on her. Imagine for instance if she had to guard Brink. Brink would destroy her up and down the court. She'll get good minutes against teams where she can post-up inside and defend a bigger player. Again, so much upside here.
6. Demetre also has some lateral mobility issues, but generally speaking, she's a great shooter. She and Betts are currently unable to match up defensively against some players. So, when the rotation shrinks against a talented team, the rotation looks like Brink, Jump, Iriafen, Jones, Lepolo, Belibi, and Nivar. All of those players can be on the floor against basically all teams. Arguably, Bosgana is moving into the rotation. Emma-Nnopu is getting hustle minutes but is still offensively challenged and a little shaky when she has to put the ball on the floor. Prechtel, Betts, and Demetre get rotation minutes if they match up well. Prechtel is the most interesting because she can play 30 minutes or 5 depending on the situation. We know she's a difference maker when her shot is falling, and she sets big screens better than pretty much anyone else.
7. I don't think Coach Tara will be unhappy if 2 seniors return for their COVID year.
8. The coaches haven't figured out some substitution problems: (a) if teams can shut Jump down, what combination of players gives us another outside shooter? (b) why does the offense go stagnant sometimes? © when Brink goes to the bench, what's the most effective group that maintains an inside presence and can score? (d) Which combination of players works best to allow Jones to attack the basket without getting doubled? (e) the rotation is much shorter and precarious when a quick athletic team mostly forces Prechtel, Betts, and Demetre to the bench. Which other players need to contribute more? (f) this year, can we avoid the 3rd quarter meltdowns? To me, I think developing Nivar into a more reliable scorer and giving Bosgana situational minutes to be creative are the most interesting solutions to some of these questions.
Both your posts are fantastic. Thanks for taking the trouble.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - BostonCard - 12-02-2022
(12-02-2022, 01:48 AM)TheFarm07 Wrote: Wow, the overreaction to pointing out things that we wished the team could improve on and a little wishful thinking on what could have been -- isn't that what being a sports fan is all about?
…
In conclusion, I hope those who are upset over this criticism know that we bring these points up not to troll or to be a downer after every win, but to express our desire for the team to improve.
That doesn’t seem the tone of some posters, and while posters can adopt whatever tone they want and I don’t mean to be the tone police, I do think think that the ”pointing things out that we wish the team could improve upon” are a bit less measured than you make them sound.
BC
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - BobK - 12-02-2022
Thank you Boston Card.
RE: WBB: Stanford 82 -- Santa Clara 69 - WBB fan - 12-02-2022
(12-02-2022, 01:07 AM)triangle2 Wrote: I'm surprised at the amount of teeth gnashing going on so don't want to contribute to it. But, there's not been a lot of discussion here about the rotation and figuring out the second unit. If anyone subscribes to the Athletic, there's been quite a few articles discussing the Warriors and their problems getting the second unit to, well, not suck. Curry is having to play 34+ minutes a game, and the +/- for the bench is dreadful. For Stanford, with a pretty new starting five, the pre-conference season is all about figuring out combinations, substitution patterns, and who plays well together. Coach Tara doesn't have Kerr's problem. Her second unit would probably win most of the conference games and make it to the the tournament. The problem she has is figuring out what to do for the 6-7 games in the season when they play a physically talented team that forces the rotation to shrink.
I honestly don't care if the team didn't smush Santa Clara, or gave up too many points to Hawaii, or that Jones looks like she's on autopilot right now in some of the games where the other team is going to struggle to score 45 points. I care about the staff getting the time to see what's going to work when the going gets substantially tougher and they're playing a South Carolina/UConn/Louisville, or maybe UCLA/Oregon/Arizona. The Warriors know that losing to Dallas in November doesn't mean bleep as long as they're ready to roll in the spring. (Obviously, for them, if they don't get the second unit stabilized, they're in big trouble.)
Worrying about whether this team is ready for a National Championship is a counterproductive narrative in November/December when we have two players who are new to the starting lineup (Iriafen and Lepolo) and one (Jump) who started early last year but then came out of the starting lineup in the 2nd half of the season.
We know a few things from Coach Tara's history, and we already know a bunch of stuff that we didn't know in October:
1) We know that if you can't play defense you don't get on the floor. We also know that unless you are the team's primary or secondary options, you don't get to turn the ball over a lot. Coach Tara wants kids on the floor who are prepared to play. We've seen for decades that if you miss a defensive assignment, turn the ball over, or stupidly foul, you are on the express lane to the bench. Players who create their own shots get more leeway on the turnovers, but we've seen from the post-game pressers that Coach Tara still isn't happy about the turnovers from creative players.
2) Lepolo compares pretty favorably to our history of freshman point guards. Having watched nearly the entire history of Stanford point guards, I have basically no heartburn about Lepolo. Personally, I think she's got great upside, and in the history of the program, we've maybe had 2-3 PG's with her handle, passing ability, and ability to run the break. I'm a fan. She's got her spots, can pull up, drive and it's not like she isn't taking a few 3's.
Check out the historical Freshman year PG stats (Some of these players didn't really play enough to say that they were playing PG, and I included a couple of players like Pohlen who didn't play PG as a freshman but switched later out of necessity.) Ros, Susan King, and Lindy were sometimes only ostensibly PG's. I omitted players who had a cup of coffee freshman year particularly if they never ended up playing meaningful PG minutes.
Jennifer Azzi (86-87): 27 starts, 31.9 mpg, 9.1 ppg, pre 3-pt line, 100 rebounds, 165 assists to 106 turnovers and 46 steals.
Molly Goodenbour (89-90): no starts, 8.2 mpg, 2.7 ppg, 10 3-pt FG, 19 rebounds, 28 assists to 29 turnovers, and 10 steals.
Kate Paye (91-92): 1 start, 8.9 mpg, 1.7 ppg, 2 3-pt FG, 40 rebounds, 23 assists to 29 turnovers, and 14 steals.
Jamilla Wideman (93-94): 29 starts, 27 mpg, 6.1 ppg, 9 3-pt FG, 86 rebounds, 134 assists to 74 turnovers and 49 steals.
Milena Flores (96-97): 2 starts, 13.8 mpg, 2.7 ppg, 5 3-pt FG, 29 rebounds, 48 assists to 22 turnovers and 12 steals.
Susan King (00-01): (injury year?) 9 starts, 31.6 mpg, 11.3 ppg, 11 3-pt FG, 25 rebounds, 46 assists to 19 turnovers and 10 steals IN 9 GAMES
Kelley Suminski (01-02): 27 starts, 24.4 mpg, 7.6 ppg, 38 3-pt FG, 69 rebounds, 93 assists to 62 turnovers and 21 steals.
Clare Bodensteiner (03-04): 0 starts, 5.4 mpg, 1.6 ppg, 2 3-pt FG, 11 rebounds, 10 assists to 12 turnovers and 3 steals.
Candice Wiggins (04-05): 34 starts, 26.9 mpg, 17.5 ppg, 36 3-pt FG, 188 rebounds, 99 assists to 103 turnovers and 85 steals. Obviously, not always PG.
JJ Hones (06-07): 20 starts, 24.3 mpg, 4.5 ppg, 14 3-pt FG, 41 rebounds, 90 assists to 32 turnovers, and 28 steals.
Ros Gold-Onwude (07-08): 33 starts, 21.8 mpg, 5.0 ppg, 34 3-pt FG, 98 rebounds, 85 assists to 76 turnovers, and 29 steals - not always playing PG.
Jeanette Pohlen (07-08): 0 starts, 19.3 mpg, 4.6 ppg, 18 3-pt FG, 113 rebounds, 76 assists to 57 turnovers, and 26 steals - not playing PG this year.
Lindy La Rocque (08-09): 1 start, 10.9 mpg, 3.5 ppg, 37 3-pt FG, 26 rebounds, 39 assists to 20 turnovers, and 18 steals - not really a PG.
Toni Kokenis (10-11): 2 starts, 17.0 mpg, 5.3 ppg, 17 3-pt FG, 53 rebounds, 44 assists to 43 turnovers, and 30 steals - more of a shooting 2.
Amber Orange (11-12): 23 starts, 19.7 mpg, 4.8 ppg, 3 3-pt FG, 99 rebounds, 112 assists to 57 turnovers, and 40 steals.
Briana Roberson (13-14): 1 start, 6.6 mpg, 1.6 ppg, 3 3-pt FG, 13 rebounds, 9 assists to 12 turnovers, and 3 steals. Not much playing PG if any that year.
Marta Sniezek (15-16): 9 starts, 18.7 mpg, 2.9 ppg, 4 3-pt FG, 56 rebounds, 109 assists to 63 turnovers and 21 steals.
Anna Wilson (16-17): 0 starts, 8.0 mpg, 2.8 ppg, 4 3-pt FG, 6 rebounds, 5 assists to 7 turnovers, and 3 steals.
Kiana Williams (17-18): 26 starts, 25.7 mpg, 10.4 ppg, 71 3-pt FG, 58 rebounds, 67 assists to 40 turnovers and 30 steals. Sniezek was mostly playing PG this year.
Jana Van Gytenbeek (20-21) 0 starts, 8.4 mpg, 2.1 ppg, 13 3-pt FG, 8 rebounds, 32 assists to 14 turnovers and 8 steals.
Talana Lepolo through 10 games: 7 starts, 26.2 mpg, 4.1 ppg, 3 3-pt FG, 20 rebounds, 57 assists to 21 turnovers and 10 steals.
Honestly, this looks pretty darn good to me, particularly since that we spent the entire off-season worrying about Jones having to bring the ball up this year. It seems obvious to me that one measure of Lepolo's success is that South Carolina didn't make any concerted effort to full court press - something that I'm fairly convinced would have happened if Jones actually had to play PG.
Fascinating list, thanks for digging out all the stats. But I think you missed two key people -- Sonja Henning (freshman year 1987-88) and Nicole Powell (freshman year 2000-01). Both ultimately All Americans. I don't have their stats, though I suspect that both would compare favorably with the best people on your list. Henning took over the PG role from Azzi when she was a freshman and Azzi was a soph. After that, Azzi was mostly a shooting guard. Powell was not initially a PG, but Tara made her one when she didn't have a good alternative.
I'm with you re Lepolo. I think she's going to develop very well, and further, and it won't be long before we quit questioning her in the role.