Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - Printable Version
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Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - washingtonismoney - 11-06-2013
It's a cultural problem here. So OutsiderFan referenced an NFL.com podcast with David Shaw here that I'll link to: http://t.co/IxIiaDWAAu
So the podcast guys give every reason why Martin had legitimate worries...and note that basically every other offensive lineman on the team has some character issue...and somehow spend large sections of the podcast wondering whether it was Martin who was the problem. They couldn't even follow their own logic!
By the way, I agree with those that say it might be a recruiting problem. It's not a logical thing to believe -- see Sherman, Luck, et al. -- but then again, people have never had problems believing illogical or unfactual things.
All of Dolphins management team is rotting, top to bottom - Mick - 11-06-2013
(11-06-2013, 07:29 AM)NYCCardinalFan link Wrote:This story has me really riled up. The more I read about it, the more upset I get.
If I hear one more time someone criticizing Martin for backing down or walking away, I think I will blow a gasket. Where to begin? Incognito does not appear to be a sane, rational person. If you come after him, it is very hard to predict how he will react. I don't think he will be cowed. I think it would actually make him more aggressive. He really doesn't get it. His only comment after all of this media frenzy is that he is waiting for the storm to pass.
More importantly, it wasn't just Incognito. It was the entire team culture it appears like. This team appointed Incognito to the six-member leadership council. Other offensive linemen were in on the prank at the lunchroom table. What is far worse is the report that alleges that the coaches had asked Incognito to toughen Martin up. If that is true (and I have a strong hunch it is), where was Martin to turn here? The entire organization appears corrupt.
And, by the way, I think the owner Stephen Ross suspects similar. There is a reason he asked the NFL to get involved. His alarm bells probably started ringing when he first heard of these reports and figured an internally prepared report wouldn't be objective as management has their own interests here.
I am fully 100% in Martin's camp here. I hope he gets to play football again. If these reports about Incognito being pushed into toughening up Martin by the coaches are true, I hope Martin sues the Dolphins. And I want to see Ross clean house at the Dolphins organization. Don't get me started on how they have had to backtrack their public statements over the weekend. I don't see any way the coach survives this and I would think the GM's job is in jeopardy.
Based upon the cretins I've known over the years, this smells like management who told Incognito to straighten Martin out, Incognito is a complete loose cannon with many years of bad behavior in his past.Â
And don't look now, but apparently the same happened at kal where the freshman walk on who was beaten into a major concussion was apparently late for practice, which forced the entire team to run additional sprints. According to the article, the team was told to handle the frosh in the way that they saw fit, which apparently means giving him a major concussion.
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - CowboyIndian - 11-06-2013
(11-06-2013, 08:44 AM)Publius link Wrote:Does anybody know if and how it's possible for him to end up at the Colts or the Niners this season? The trade deadline is past. I'd imagine the Dolphins want to be accomodating to Martin in this situation. Do they release him and put him on waivers? How does this work?
Roger Goodell has been eerily silent on this matter. I think you'll have to wait and see what he rules. He may end up giving Martin his free agency, if that's what he wants.
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - FarmBoy - 11-06-2013
My understanding is there are significant and complicated financial issues at stake. I don't pretend to understand them, nor do I have interest in researching it, but waiving Martin might cost the Dolphins a lot compared with placing him on the non-football injury list.
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - FarmBoy - 11-06-2013
Has anyone seen any quotes from fromer Stanford teammates on Martin's "toughness"? I'm surprised Luck hasn't been asked anything (if he has, I haven't seen it.) I just saw this brief mention from an ESPN blog article, but I was interested to see there was no question about whether Martin was "tough" at Stanford. :
Quote:Steelers right guard David DeCastro is good friends with Martin -- the two started on Stanfords offensive line for three seasons together -- and he said he has talked to his former Cardinal teammate.
I just called him to make sure he was alright, DeCastro said. I could care less about football. I just wanted to make sure he was OK as a person and he is so thats good, thats whats important.
When asked if he thinks Martin still has the desire to play football, DeCastro said, Thats up to him.
I've seen someone mention that Martin's strength was footwork, not physicality. I searched for some pre-draft analysis and found this from CBS. I'm not sure how consensus it is, but I've pulled some quotes from it below:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1695609/jonathan-martin
Quote:Not all scouts agree that Martin has the natural strength to be highly successful as a pro pass protector, but he did manage to get the job done in Stanford's pro-style offense.
Some scouts believe that Stanford's zone blocking scheme helped Martin maximize his results and that he will need more strength to battle the behemoths he will encounter in the NFL. That concern was amplified when, after not working out at the Scouting Combine, Martin managed only 20 reps on the bench with 225 pounds at Stanford's pro day.
He does flash some attitude on the field, but is far from a bully.
Plays with a nasty streak. Solid character and work ethic.
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - washingtonismoney - 11-06-2013
Stanford a zone blocking team? Those scouts are not the most incisive ever. (Or the journalist simply passed on their deceptions.)
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - FarmBoy - 11-06-2013
From Huffington Post:
Quote:Luck, Martin's former teammate at Stanford, called the incident "unfortunate" and that he loves Martin "like a brother." Beyond that, Luck didn't care to comment on the Martin situation.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/05/andrew-luck-peyton-manning-huffpost-live_n_4221184.html
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - SUBuddha - 11-06-2013
Some more quotes from players about Moose.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9936522/nflpa-wants-agents-jonathan-martin-richie-incognito-meet
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - dabigv13 - 11-06-2013
http://nfl.si.com/2013/11/06/richie-incognito-honorary-black-man-miami-dolphins-jonathan-martin/?sct=hp_t2_a2&eref=sihp
Confirms a lot of my suspicions...this isn't and never was about race, though the n-word is what the riles the public up about this. And even though I'm a Dolphins fan, I don't think this is a Miami Dolphins problem, I think this is an NFL problem.
Still a lot to come out on this story.
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - Griffins78 - 11-06-2013
It is about being a thug and using race as a weapon.
He may be accepted by a few blacks that want to call him an honorary something - maybe the word should be honorary "Thug" because he "carries himself" differently from Martin, comes from a violent, ignorant, uncivilized "background" and has "experienced" being bullied. Did you read what his father said?
He said those things not as a "honorary brother" or to help Martin feel wanted in the locker room. He said them in hate - to be mean, to intimidate. This shows that the other linemen where in Incognito's "Posse" - they were a gang - and the gang decided to pick on, ostracize, and bully someone that was different than them. Not to create brotherhood and team chemistry that you would hope for an OL. It doesn't have to be because of race - maybe it was just for fun and entertainment. I think it often is. Also a bully establishes himself by getting the others to participate and the others hope that they don't get targeted themselves - so they go along. The bully ring leader just needs to find someone different - and someone that he doesn't think will fight back. Maybe because Martin is educated and intelligent and has a good family - the ring leader and then the gang picked him to reject, intimidate, demean and to have "fun" with. Incognito, based on his track record, didn't give a __it what the consequences were. He's proven many, many times that he doesn't give a __it about whether he hurts others or even the team and has repeatedly gone too far.
So I think he used race as a way to demean, intimidate, and get under Martin's skin. Is he a racist? I believe he is because he used race as a weapon.
I think more - that he is a thug. A bad person. Someone that would be in jail if not for professional football.
Snowden and Martin - Mick - 11-06-2013
(11-05-2013, 04:08 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:What if an NFL player was being bullied because of his perceived or actual sexual orientation? Would we see a guy playing the Incognito role refrain from calling the bullied player a "fag" because that is unacceptable when the N-word isn't? Or given the "meatheads" in the NFL, if a player were suspected to be gay, would we see that word being thrown around by a NFL bully with impunity against a suspected gay football player?
It would seem likely this episode pretty much ensures that no NFL player is going to be openly homosexual. What a cruel reality for aspiring gay football players. Not only can you not be who you are in the NFL, you have to hide it and live a lie through high school and college, because if you are suspected as gay, this demonstrates what might happen to you if you are open about it.
But back to the Martin case... I'm not a trained psychologist, but it sure seems there is a profound difference between someone being physically engaged by a bully and fighting back physically to put one down, and threats and intimidation that as far as the bullied one knows could lead to something much more serious, like home being vandalized, actually fearing for safety all the time. That manifests itself in excruciating stress and to me, takes bullying to another level that absolutely warrants what some might call "ratting" out the bully.
The reporting suggests Martin did not "go running to his mommy." He walked out of a situation he couldn't stand, and when a party, in this case his employer, came to him to assess why he did, Martin was honest. And this brands him as "soft" or "a pussy?" What, if someone murders your loved one, and you know who did it, the suggested course of action is to refrain from saying who did it because that's being a narc? Ridiculous.
The only one who has done anything right in the ugly situation is Jonathan Martin. He tried to go along with the hazing, but when it continued after he was no longer a rookie, it was uncharted territory that made him feel unsafe and unwanted. Nobody, in any situation should stay in an environment where threatened and unwanted. This whole he "should have resorted to violence" meme is from the same unevolved place that brands people with mental health issues as weak. It's just simply unacceptable for us to condone violence as a solution to bullying and dismiss mental illness as just being "soft" when the knowledge now exists for us to know better.
Maybe bullying doesn't go away because too many people say ratting out the bully makes someone look weak? To me, this is the same dynamic that is created when those experiments are done to see how people act when put in charge of another person in isolation for too long. Invariably, the one in power slowly de-humanizes the prisoner and before you know it, you've got Abu Ghraib prison. And we see it today with NSA spying, as it has been made clear the agency has been allowed to do whatever it wants, and so just keeps pushing further and further, minus any limitations or consequences for doing anything. We simply must demonstrate there are limits to behavior we will not tolerate, and create regulations and social norms to foster the behavior we want, or we will continue getting the behavior we say we abhor.
I didn't initially see Edward Snowden as a hero, more of a self-promoter, but now it is clear he is a hero, because he has shined a light on behavior that if left unchecked, could have done much more harm to everyone. He took a courageous leap to "rat out" the most powerful country (bully) on Earth. To me, in his own world, Jonathan Martin is a lot like Edward Snowden, and should be celebrated because look how many cases of bullying won't start in the future because even a 6-5 315 NFL football player can be bullied, and even he can stand up to it by simply calling it out.
I'm not real comfortable calling Snowden a hero. IMHO, he performed some acts that fell into the category of whistleblowing, and he did some traitorous things. I don't think it serves us well to think of him as all hero or all villain. BUT...if you look a bit, you can find half-a-dozen other NSA analysts who have attempted to work within the system, within the NSA. They lost their jobs, lost their livelihoods, they were vilified, the offenders continued to get away scott-free.
So I don't think it makes sense to work within a corrupt system, as some players seem to advocate for Martin. Too many vested interests in the status quo. And all it does is cost Martin, and the sxxtheads never have to own up. So Martin goes public. Harms himself, harms incognito, likely to harm the coaching staff. Other players sound like meatheads that support hazing. No real winners here...
It would be interesting to see if Martin files suit.
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - FarmBoy - 11-06-2013
Quote:Fleener said hes exchanged text messages with Martin but declined to go into specifics on what they talked about. He did, however, stick up for his former teammate when a reporter said Martin has a reputation for not being tough.
I think thats a stupid, stupid statement, Fleener said. If somebody wants to dispute that, Id be happy to talk to them. Its neither here nor there. Its not really something that were focused on.
Quote:"As far as that situation, there's only one thing I can intelligently comment on and that's knowing Jonathan Martin," Harbaugh said on Wednesday. "I know him to be a fine person and his family [too]. [Martin was a] great contributor as a student and an athlete at Stanford, epitomizes the student-athlete model and a personal friend. I support Jonathan."
Quote:"For anybody to say he can't handle it is really disappointing to me and it's disappointing that our society even has to question it. It's pathetic to me," Baldwin said Wednesday. "We need to look at these things logically and with common sense. What option did he have? He could have fought Incognito. He could have told on the guys involved, which we know doesn't go over well in a football locker room, or he could have removed himself from the situation, which he did.
"I think he made the right decision. I've talked to [Martin]. I reached out to him just to make sure he was OK. I just wanted him to now I was here for him."
It's great to hear all of the Stanford guys are reaching out to him. That must be a real bond they forge in the trenches on Saturday.
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - fullmetal - 11-06-2013
The same probably applies to the Dolphins as well, at least enough to where players are backing Incognito despite appearances of terrible behavior.
Re: Snowden and Martin - DC - 11-06-2013
(11-06-2013, 05:40 PM)Mick link Wrote:[quote author=OutsiderFan link=topic=8717.msg73541#msg73541 date=1383649699]
What if an NFL player was being bullied because of his perceived or actual sexual orientation? Would we see a guy playing the Incognito role refrain from calling the bullied player a "fag" because that is unacceptable when the N-word isn't? Or given the "meatheads" in the NFL, if a player were suspected to be gay, would we see that word being thrown around by a NFL bully with impunity against a suspected gay football player?
It would seem likely this episode pretty much ensures that no NFL player is going to be openly homosexual. What a cruel reality for aspiring gay football players. Not only can you not be who you are in the NFL, you have to hide it and live a lie through high school and college, because if you are suspected as gay, this demonstrates what might happen to you if you are open about it.
But back to the Martin case... I'm not a trained psychologist, but it sure seems there is a profound difference between someone being physically engaged by a bully and fighting back physically to put one down, and threats and intimidation that as far as the bullied one knows could lead to something much more serious, like home being vandalized, actually fearing for safety all the time. That manifests itself in excruciating stress and to me, takes bullying to another level that absolutely warrants what some might call "ratting" out the bully.
The reporting suggests Martin did not "go running to his mommy." He walked out of a situation he couldn't stand, and when a party, in this case his employer, came to him to assess why he did, Martin was honest. And this brands him as "soft" or "a pussy?" What, if someone murders your loved one, and you know who did it, the suggested course of action is to refrain from saying who did it because that's being a narc? Ridiculous.
The only one who has done anything right in the ugly situation is Jonathan Martin. He tried to go along with the hazing, but when it continued after he was no longer a rookie, it was uncharted territory that made him feel unsafe and unwanted. Nobody, in any situation should stay in an environment where threatened and unwanted. This whole he "should have resorted to violence" meme is from the same unevolved place that brands people with mental health issues as weak. It's just simply unacceptable for us to condone violence as a solution to bullying and dismiss mental illness as just being "soft" when the knowledge now exists for us to know better.
Maybe bullying doesn't go away because too many people say ratting out the bully makes someone look weak? To me, this is the same dynamic that is created when those experiments are done to see how people act when put in charge of another person in isolation for too long. Invariably, the one in power slowly de-humanizes the prisoner and before you know it, you've got Abu Ghraib prison. And we see it today with NSA spying, as it has been made clear the agency has been allowed to do whatever it wants, and so just keeps pushing further and further, minus any limitations or consequences for doing anything. We simply must demonstrate there are limits to behavior we will not tolerate, and create regulations and social norms to foster the behavior we want, or we will continue getting the behavior we say we abhor.
I didn't initially see Edward Snowden as a hero, more of a self-promoter, but now it is clear he is a hero, because he has shined a light on behavior that if left unchecked, could have done much more harm to everyone. He took a courageous leap to "rat out" the most powerful country (bully) on Earth. To me, in his own world, Jonathan Martin is a lot like Edward Snowden, and should be celebrated because look how many cases of bullying won't start in the future because even a 6-5 315 NFL football player can be bullied, and even he can stand up to it by simply calling it out.
I'm not real comfortable calling Snowden a hero. IMHO, he performed some acts that fell into the category of whistleblowing, and he did some traitorous things. I don't think it serves us well to think of him as all hero or all villain. BUT...if you look a bit, you can find half-a-dozen other NSA analysts who have attempted to work within the system, within the NSA. They lost their jobs, lost their livelihoods, they were vilified, the offenders continued to get away scott-free.
So I don't think it makes sense to work within a corrupt system, as some players seem to advocate for Martin. Too many vested interests in the status quo. And all it does is cost Martin, and the sxxtheads never have to own up. So Martin goes public. Harms himself, harms incognito, likely to harm the coaching staff. Other players sound like meatheads that support hazing. No real winners here...
It would be interesting to see if Martin files suit.
[/quote]I don't consider Snowden to be a hero either. He had an agreement to not betray the US and reveal information, and he broke that agreement. He is a traitor, and I am a person who doesn't approve of government spying.
Unfortunate about Martin. He is between a rock and a hard place. I would guess Miami will trade him, which would be the best for all concerned.
Re: Snowden and Martin - 82 Card - 11-07-2013
(11-06-2013, 10:12 PM)DC link Wrote:I don't consider Snowden to be a hero either. He had an agreement to not betray the US and reveal information, and he broke that agreement. He is a traitor, and I am a person who doesn't approve of government spying.
When one takes a position with the federal government, they take an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." There's a lot more involved than just keeping secrets and following orders.
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - oman - 11-07-2013
When this issue surfaced I looked at the definition of treason in the Constitution and more important glanced at the (to me) surprisingly rare number of instances that a conviction for treason has been sought. What he did doesn't really fit the model of what treason is.Â
Does Jonathan want to go to med school?
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - Cardinal96 - 11-07-2013
I am getting more and more sickened the more I hear about this. Dolphins players supporting Incognito's behavior. Now the latest twist. When Martin discussed this issue with the GM, Jeff Ireland, he was told to punch Incognito. Let that sink in for a moment. The General Manager of your organization is advocating workplace violence as a dispute to workplace harassment and bullying. At what other HR department would you get this advice? If I do that at my job I am out of a job and am likely facing legal action.Â
I have moved past Incognito in my anger. He was the ringleader but this was only possible because of a culture of intimidation and bullying that was supported by the highest levels. This is institutional rot. And it needs an enema from the top down.
Re: Snowden and Martin - DC - 11-07-2013
(11-07-2013, 03:48 AM)82 Card link Wrote:[quote author=DC link=topic=8717.msg73709#msg73709 date=1383801148]
I don't consider Snowden to be a hero either. He had an agreement to not betray the US and reveal information, and he broke that agreement. He is a traitor, and I am a person who doesn't approve of government spying.
When one takes a position with the federal government, they take an oath to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." There's a lot more involved than just keeping secrets and following orders.
[/quote]I agree with your first statement. I'm not sure what you are implying by your second statement, but I suspect you and I are drawing the opposite conclusion about him. He had a duty and obligation to our country to protect its classified information and he did the exact opposite.
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - OutsiderFan - 11-07-2013
"Hero" may be too strong a word for Snowden, but he is kind of a modern day Daniel Elsberg, who exposed information the public had a right to know when weighing whether it wanted to continue waging war. Only now, Snowden is exposing information the public has a right to know when weighing just how many liberties it wants to sacrifice in the name of "security."
I've seen plenty of examples in my life of powerful forces ignoring laws and never being punished for breaking them. Why should values I hold dear be sacrificed in the name of abiding by the law, when those I oppose willingly break the law to ensure they don't sacrifice theirs?
Re: Jonathan Martin reportedly walks out on Dolphins, seeks counseling - oman - 11-07-2013
(11-07-2013, 05:09 AM)NYCCardinalFan link Wrote:I am getting more and more sickened the more I hear about this. Dolphins players supporting Incognito's behavior. Now the latest twist. When Martin discussed this issue with the GM, Jeff Ireland, he was told to punch Incognito. Let that sink in for a moment. The General Manager of your organization is advocating workplace violence as a dispute to workplace harassment and bullying. At what other HR department would you get this advice? If I do that at my job I am out of a job and am likely facing legal action.
Let me guess. You aren't a professional hockey player?
Do you have a job where you routinely shower with, travel with, and engage in tackling drills with you coworkers?
I agree with everyone that his is harassment, Martin was correct, Incogito should be fired, etc. but a boardroom is not a call center is not an NFL players lounge is not an oil rig. An NFL GM telling an offensive lineman to punch another player is akin to a call center manager telling one of his employees to tell the harasser "no!".  Both are arguably a dereliction of duty but one clearly is not as shocking.Â
(Punching another employee is grounds for immediate termination at most companies. I'm sure that is a bit less rigid on football teams.
Finally, I WISH most managers would go to HR when faced with an issue like this....)