WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - Printable Version
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Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - Lorcan - 02-02-2018
(02-02-2018, 09:53 PM)titantwin link Wrote:I was wondering if we would maybe try and go small against them to make Gulich actually play some defense instead of just sitting in the key allowing Kaylee and Nadia to shoot any shot they wanted (and subsequently miss). Maybe keeping Alanna at the 5 and going with Kiana, Marta, Brit and Dijonai? Still physical enough to continue doubling on defensive end etc, but now you have the ability to drag their big out from camping in the key. Anyway, just a thought I had during the second quarter when we hit a flat spot in scoring and needed to make some sort of a change.
Overall, they found a way and it is a significant win for the group. Hopefully it gives them some confidence for Sundays game. Would love to see another win against the Ducks.
The problem with going small was that Sneizek started getting posted up by Oregon's guards during the run that they had to start the second quarter. I don't think that we really had the option to go small this game.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - Lorcan - 02-02-2018
(02-02-2018, 09:53 PM)titantwin link Wrote:I was wondering if we would maybe try and go small against them to make Gulich actually play some defense instead of just sitting in the key allowing Kaylee and Nadia to shoot any shot they wanted (and subsequently miss). Maybe keeping Alanna at the 5 and going with Kiana, Marta, Brit and Dijonai? Still physical enough to continue doubling on defensive end etc, but now you have the ability to drag their big out from camping in the key. Anyway, just a thought I had during the second quarter when we hit a flat spot in scoring and needed to make some sort of a change.
Overall, they found a way and it is a significant win for the group. Hopefully it gives them some confidence for Sundays game. Would love to see another win against the Ducks.
The problem with going small was that Sneizek started getting posted up by Oregon's guards during the run that they had to start the second quarter. I don't think that we really had the option to go small this game.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 81alum - 02-02-2018
The replay showed what we did to Kat Tudor. It was pretty subtle--no doubling or mismatches. Kiana Williams stayed on her constantly, and kept just close enough that she could intercept any pass sent her way. Tudor did not shoot badly, she never shot at all--0/0 from three point range. Williams did not sag off of Tudor to help on Gulich the way the other players did. This is why McWilliams and not Tudor was sometimes open--she was guarded by McPhee who collapsed onto Gulich.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 81alum - 02-02-2018
The replay showed what we did to Kat Tudor. It was pretty subtle--no doubling or mismatches. Kiana Williams stayed on her constantly, and kept just close enough that she could intercept any pass sent her way. Tudor did not shoot badly, she never shot at all--0/0 from three point range. Williams did not sag off of Tudor to help on Gulich the way the other players did. This is why McWilliams and not Tudor was sometimes open--she was guarded by McPhee who collapsed onto Gulich.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - qwerty49 - 02-03-2018
I only saw the 4th Q but your description of our defense on Tudor matches the gut feel I had as I watched that (for once) we had superior athleticism on the floor and just dominated on defense and under the boards. Im sure it was a combination of scheme, effort and the athleticism to execute, but I was very impressed with our defense, especially in the paint and under the boards. Everyone was contributing but Alana and Kaylee were just relentless and played with such heart. We need this kind of play every game to get to the post season.
(02-02-2018, 11:22 PM)81alum link Wrote:The replay showed what we did to Kat Tudor. It was pretty subtle--no doubling or mismatches. Kiana Williams stayed on her constantly, and kept just close enough that she could intercept any pass sent her way. Tudor did not shoot badly, she never shot at all--0/0 from three point range. Williams did not sag off of Tudor to help on Gulich the way the other players did. This is why McWilliams and not Tudor was sometimes open--she was guarded by McPhee who collapsed onto Gulich.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - qwerty49 - 02-03-2018
I only saw the 4th Q but your description of our defense on Tudor matches the gut feel I had as I watched that (for once) we had superior athleticism on the floor and just dominated on defense and under the boards. Im sure it was a combination of scheme, effort and the athleticism to execute, but I was very impressed with our defense, especially in the paint and under the boards. Everyone was contributing but Alana and Kaylee were just relentless and played with such heart. We need this kind of play every game to get to the post season.
(02-02-2018, 11:22 PM)81alum link Wrote:The replay showed what we did to Kat Tudor. It was pretty subtle--no doubling or mismatches. Kiana Williams stayed on her constantly, and kept just close enough that she could intercept any pass sent her way. Tudor did not shoot badly, she never shot at all--0/0 from three point range. Williams did not sag off of Tudor to help on Gulich the way the other players did. This is why McWilliams and not Tudor was sometimes open--she was guarded by McPhee who collapsed onto Gulich.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 2006alum - 02-03-2018
"That is Stanford basketball. Pushing transition. Run as hard as you can, and push the ball ahead for a score."
-Commentators late in the third quarter after the fantastic Williams-to-Carrington-to-McPhee fast break.
Man, how times change! That was NOT how anyone would have described Stanford basketball 2, 5, or 10 seasons ago. I felt like we were watching Stanford of today go up against Stanford of a decade ago. Oregon State has dominating bigs, great three point shooters, and technically solid defense, but hates pace, hates physicality, make no effort to press on defense, and it felt like our style really gave them trouble. In the last two minutes of the game, Marta had the ball just past the half court for probably 40 seconds over two possessions, and no one on their team was making ANY effort to try to take it away from her. In fact, they were 10 or 15 feet back. I had flashbacks of several of our own games 5 or 10 years back when that would happen and I'd be yelling at the TV to press them. Their lack of physicality also really helped us keep our turnovers down. Again, just like in our past, when steals were often far fewer than blocks.
I loved seeing how many mid-range jumpers we were making - they were brobdingnagian for us this game. When they switched to a zone midway through, it really made the difference to find open space inside the zone, esp. given our three-point shooting. Both Williams and McPhee were hitting them hard, and well. I think we may have had more inside jumpers than we did layups, at least after they switched to the zone. After all the flack I've been giving our team for that, major kudos to both for executing so well. It feels like Williams, McPhee, and Carrington are really starting to gel as a trio on offense, because they are all fast, like to push, and can be creative around the basket. There were some beautiful fast-break passes between the three. I can understand why Tara subbed Marta out for stretches to keep all three in together (and also for the defensive rotations, see below).
Offensive rebound really improved over the course of the game. I thought we were losing the rebounding battle in the first quarter but we were so clutch down the stretch. (Edited to add: yep, just checked the box score and we had 4 o-boards in the first half vs. their 16 d-boards, and 13 o-boards in the second half vs. their 11. We actually had more o-boards than d-boards in the second half). Johnson, in particular, really asserted her will against much taller bigs. She definitely was a glue player today. But man, imagine if she could develop a long-range shot at the elbow. Part of what transformed Bird into such an all-star last year was her developing 3-point shot when she was at the high post. She could step back and nail it when necessary, which kept defenses honest. There were times Johnson had the court to herself but wouldn't take the shot.
I loved what I saw from Carrington this game. Just always looking to press, to hustle, to make something happen. Even apart from our steals, just an overall strong defensive game. We neutralized both Gulich and Tudor. Apparently it's the first game all season that Gulich was held to single digit scoring. Tudor didn't score at all! I wonder if we might be one of the top teams in the country in terms of top scorer average vs. top scorer against us? It really speaks to how well Tara scouts. And I agree that this was a good game to have Williams run the point. She was great on Tudor, and that allowed Carrington to hound Pivec. She really seemed to fluster Pivec in the exact same way press defenses would hound our guards like Pohlen in the past. Pivec reminded me a lot of Pohlen, actually; again, playing against the Stanford of yore.
Williams was fantastic. She has so earned her starting position, and the growth even over the course of her freshman year has been so heartening to see. I'm hopeful we'll see similar growth from Dodson in the next 12 months, especially once Johnson graduates and she'll get more playing time at the 5. Between those two and Carrington, the future is definitely bright.
The only reason this game was close was our lack of three point shooting, though we largely neutralized theirs too. It didn't hurt us as much against Oregon State because they aren't physical enough inside to make trying to penetrate a fool's errand, and so we actually had a lot of success inside, but against other teams that will hurt us if we can't improve there. I can't remember any inside-outside passes that led to a three (and if I'm forgetting, there obviously weren't many).
Overall, a brobdingnagian road win. I have to think we should remain in the top 25 regardless of what happens at Oregon.
BTW: Anna Wilson didn't seem dressed to play. Do we know what that was about?
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 2006alum - 02-03-2018
"That is Stanford basketball. Pushing transition. Run as hard as you can, and push the ball ahead for a score."
-Commentators late in the third quarter after the fantastic Williams-to-Carrington-to-McPhee fast break.
Man, how times change! That was NOT how anyone would have described Stanford basketball 2, 5, or 10 seasons ago. I felt like we were watching Stanford of today go up against Stanford of a decade ago. Oregon State has dominating bigs, great three point shooters, and technically solid defense, but hates pace, hates physicality, make no effort to press on defense, and it felt like our style really gave them trouble. In the last two minutes of the game, Marta had the ball just past the half court for probably 40 seconds over two possessions, and no one on their team was making ANY effort to try to take it away from her. In fact, they were 10 or 15 feet back. I had flashbacks of several of our own games 5 or 10 years back when that would happen and I'd be yelling at the TV to press them. Their lack of physicality also really helped us keep our turnovers down. Again, just like in our past, when steals were often far fewer than blocks.
I loved seeing how many mid-range jumpers we were making - they were brobdingnagian for us this game. When they switched to a zone midway through, it really made the difference to find open space inside the zone, esp. given our three-point shooting. Both Williams and McPhee were hitting them hard, and well. I think we may have had more inside jumpers than we did layups, at least after they switched to the zone. After all the flack I've been giving our team for that, major kudos to both for executing so well. It feels like Williams, McPhee, and Carrington are really starting to gel as a trio on offense, because they are all fast, like to push, and can be creative around the basket. There were some beautiful fast-break passes between the three. I can understand why Tara subbed Marta out for stretches to keep all three in together (and also for the defensive rotations, see below).
Offensive rebound really improved over the course of the game. I thought we were losing the rebounding battle in the first quarter but we were so clutch down the stretch. (Edited to add: yep, just checked the box score and we had 4 o-boards in the first half vs. their 16 d-boards, and 13 o-boards in the second half vs. their 11. We actually had more o-boards than d-boards in the second half). Johnson, in particular, really asserted her will against much taller bigs. She definitely was a glue player today. But man, imagine if she could develop a long-range shot at the elbow. Part of what transformed Bird into such an all-star last year was her developing 3-point shot when she was at the high post. She could step back and nail it when necessary, which kept defenses honest. There were times Johnson had the court to herself but wouldn't take the shot.
I loved what I saw from Carrington this game. Just always looking to press, to hustle, to make something happen. Even apart from our steals, just an overall strong defensive game. We neutralized both Gulich and Tudor. Apparently it's the first game all season that Gulich was held to single digit scoring. Tudor didn't score at all! I wonder if we might be one of the top teams in the country in terms of top scorer average vs. top scorer against us? It really speaks to how well Tara scouts. And I agree that this was a good game to have Williams run the point. She was great on Tudor, and that allowed Carrington to hound Pivec. She really seemed to fluster Pivec in the exact same way press defenses would hound our guards like Pohlen in the past. Pivec reminded me a lot of Pohlen, actually; again, playing against the Stanford of yore.
Williams was fantastic. She has so earned her starting position, and the growth even over the course of her freshman year has been so heartening to see. I'm hopeful we'll see similar growth from Dodson in the next 12 months, especially once Johnson graduates and she'll get more playing time at the 5. Between those two and Carrington, the future is definitely bright.
The only reason this game was close was our lack of three point shooting, though we largely neutralized theirs too. It didn't hurt us as much against Oregon State because they aren't physical enough inside to make trying to penetrate a fool's errand, and so we actually had a lot of success inside, but against other teams that will hurt us if we can't improve there. I can't remember any inside-outside passes that led to a three (and if I'm forgetting, there obviously weren't many).
Overall, a brobdingnagian road win. I have to think we should remain in the top 25 regardless of what happens at Oregon.
BTW: Anna Wilson didn't seem dressed to play. Do we know what that was about?
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 81alum - 02-03-2018
Perceptive comments 2006. I especially like (and agree) that it seemed we were playing against the Stanford of yesterday--keeping in mind of course that Marie Gulich is no Ogwumike or Appel--but Rueck's team strategy is a great deal like we used to be.
No idea about Anna Wilson. One of the disadvantages about away games is we don't get the inside scoop at a chalk talk.
There is one other aspect of the game that should be noted--officiating. The officials let a LOT go uncalled. I think this generally favored us given how much more physical our team seemed to be. Carrington had 4 fouls as it was. We should all hope that the officials call the Oregon game like they did the OSU game. A tightly called game against that offensive juggernaut would be a disaster for us.
Also, no one mentioned the Rueck technical. The replay does make the call that irked him seem quite questionable, but it was not blatant. Rueck is usually more in control of himself. Since Marta made both those free throws, you could say that Rueck's behavior really hurt OSU. Without those 2 extra points, the game (if nothing else changed) would have been tied in the last minute, dramatically changing strategies, etc.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 81alum - 02-03-2018
Perceptive comments 2006. I especially like (and agree) that it seemed we were playing against the Stanford of yesterday--keeping in mind of course that Marie Gulich is no Ogwumike or Appel--but Rueck's team strategy is a great deal like we used to be.
No idea about Anna Wilson. One of the disadvantages about away games is we don't get the inside scoop at a chalk talk.
There is one other aspect of the game that should be noted--officiating. The officials let a LOT go uncalled. I think this generally favored us given how much more physical our team seemed to be. Carrington had 4 fouls as it was. We should all hope that the officials call the Oregon game like they did the OSU game. A tightly called game against that offensive juggernaut would be a disaster for us.
Also, no one mentioned the Rueck technical. The replay does make the call that irked him seem quite questionable, but it was not blatant. Rueck is usually more in control of himself. Since Marta made both those free throws, you could say that Rueck's behavior really hurt OSU. Without those 2 extra points, the game (if nothing else changed) would have been tied in the last minute, dramatically changing strategies, etc.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 2006alum - 02-03-2018
True on all fronts, 81. Gulich is closer to an Appel, though not as crafty around the basket. It may have been our defense on her, but I didn't see her make many back to the basket shots. I felt like those were Jayne's bread and butter. And she boxed out so, so well. That said, I don't think we've ever had a player with Gulich's height and her skills. Our really big bigs have generally not been as successful. (I guess Jayne at 6'4" might just qualify as a big big.)
And yeah, the Rueck technical was bizarre because while I think the foul call was probably unnecessary, it was so early in the game, the first on Gulich, and I generally think ticky tacky fouls are less worth getting upset about than no-calls when your player gets mauled.
And as you note, the lightly called game definitely helped us, especially with Carrington, although my perception was that they started calling it closer in the second half, and that was when Smith and Carrington started picking up fouls. I wonder whether the Rueck technical might have backfired by making the refs more skittish about making calls in the first half? While he obviously wants to keep Gulich in the game, I think our team is definitely more prone to foul trouble and plays more aggressively, so scaring them off from calling it tightly might not make sense against a team like.
Mostly what I noticed was that they were not as attentive to action away from the game ball. I suspect Carrington could reasonably have been called once or twice for fouls when she was guarding away from the ball. There was one collision in the 4th between her and two OSU players during a rebound that opened the paint up for McPhee to score an easy layup. Carrington was just out of focus the first time and the replay was at a bad angle, but I suspect that would have been a reasonable call to make. All that said, I love the aggressiveness. We haven't had much of that at Stanford in the past decade, so it's refreshing to for once feel like when the game is tight, we're the team that will press, push, and challenge.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 2006alum - 02-03-2018
True on all fronts, 81. Gulich is closer to an Appel, though not as crafty around the basket. It may have been our defense on her, but I didn't see her make many back to the basket shots. I felt like those were Jayne's bread and butter. And she boxed out so, so well. That said, I don't think we've ever had a player with Gulich's height and her skills. Our really big bigs have generally not been as successful. (I guess Jayne at 6'4" might just qualify as a big big.)
And yeah, the Rueck technical was bizarre because while I think the foul call was probably unnecessary, it was so early in the game, the first on Gulich, and I generally think ticky tacky fouls are less worth getting upset about than no-calls when your player gets mauled.
And as you note, the lightly called game definitely helped us, especially with Carrington, although my perception was that they started calling it closer in the second half, and that was when Smith and Carrington started picking up fouls. I wonder whether the Rueck technical might have backfired by making the refs more skittish about making calls in the first half? While he obviously wants to keep Gulich in the game, I think our team is definitely more prone to foul trouble and plays more aggressively, so scaring them off from calling it tightly might not make sense against a team like.
Mostly what I noticed was that they were not as attentive to action away from the game ball. I suspect Carrington could reasonably have been called once or twice for fouls when she was guarding away from the ball. There was one collision in the 4th between her and two OSU players during a rebound that opened the paint up for McPhee to score an easy layup. Carrington was just out of focus the first time and the replay was at a bad angle, but I suspect that would have been a reasonable call to make. All that said, I love the aggressiveness. We haven't had much of that at Stanford in the past decade, so it's refreshing to for once feel like when the game is tight, we're the team that will press, push, and challenge.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 81alum - 02-03-2018
A few quotes:
Rueck with a reference to the officiating:Â
Quote:Weve worked too hard to get to this point to be soft in an area where, weve been in physical games before, and this game was allowed to be extremely physical with the exception of a couple calls, he said. We needed to match that. Were laying on the ground and theyre getting layups and laying it in. Weve got to get better.
Tara and how her timeout got our offense back on track by getting Williams and McPhee to take jumpshots off of the screen:
Quote: We just had to remind people what to do, what we wanted to run, Stanford coach Tata VanDerveer said of what she mentioned in the timeout. Thats when Ki got going, Brit got going coming off the screens. The way they were playing the screens, they were allowing jump shots and Ki is money off that screen, Brit is money off that screen. We hadnt been doing that early in the game and I think that kind of got us going.
http://www.gazettetimes.com/sports/beavers-sports/basketball/osu-women-s-basketball-no-beavers-can-t-complete-comeback/article_99ce04ef-c344-5538-bda1-b5c82c0e557c.html
Other quotes from the press conference:
Tara was asked about how we were so successful on Tudor and Gulich:Â
"We play what we call scouting-report defense, and we try to focus on not letting them do what they like to do. Kiana did a great job guarding Kat Tudor. She is a terrific shooter, if you leave her open she can knock down threes, shooting 50%, shooting 65 of them--we know we can't leave her open. We said 'if you're guarding her and she makes a three, you come out.' Ki wanted to play. [Kiana chuckles.] I thought Kayl did a really good job defensively on Gulich. She's a terrific player."
Tara on rebounding:
"Rebounding rebounding rebounding. That's what I talked about to our team before the game, we've got to get on the glass, we've got to get second and third shots, and there was no bigger rebound than the rebound on the free throw that Alanna got."
Asked about how she kept the players from falling apart with all the early losses:Â
"They didn't get into Stanford because they were dumb. They are really intelligent young women who understand who we played, and that we played them without Britt. We were going into fights with one hand tied behind our backs, and we played without Di too in several games. We get Di and Britt back and all of a sudden we are a different team. And the leadership with Britt and Kayl knowing that it's the end that counts, it's getting better every game. I am really proud of this team. Some teams would have come apart. This team is extremely close. They have great leadership, great camaraderie, they are extremely unselfish. When Marta's out she is cheering for Kiana, when Britt's out she is cheering for Di or Alyssa. It's a really fun team to be around win or lose, but obviously it is more fun to be around if you win."
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 81alum - 02-03-2018
A few quotes:
Rueck with a reference to the officiating:Â
Quote:Weve worked too hard to get to this point to be soft in an area where, weve been in physical games before, and this game was allowed to be extremely physical with the exception of a couple calls, he said. We needed to match that. Were laying on the ground and theyre getting layups and laying it in. Weve got to get better.
Tara and how her timeout got our offense back on track by getting Williams and McPhee to take jumpshots off of the screen:
Quote: We just had to remind people what to do, what we wanted to run, Stanford coach Tata VanDerveer said of what she mentioned in the timeout. Thats when Ki got going, Brit got going coming off the screens. The way they were playing the screens, they were allowing jump shots and Ki is money off that screen, Brit is money off that screen. We hadnt been doing that early in the game and I think that kind of got us going.
http://www.gazettetimes.com/sports/beavers-sports/basketball/osu-women-s-basketball-no-beavers-can-t-complete-comeback/article_99ce04ef-c344-5538-bda1-b5c82c0e557c.html
Other quotes from the press conference:
Tara was asked about how we were so successful on Tudor and Gulich:Â
"We play what we call scouting-report defense, and we try to focus on not letting them do what they like to do. Kiana did a great job guarding Kat Tudor. She is a terrific shooter, if you leave her open she can knock down threes, shooting 50%, shooting 65 of them--we know we can't leave her open. We said 'if you're guarding her and she makes a three, you come out.' Ki wanted to play. [Kiana chuckles.] I thought Kayl did a really good job defensively on Gulich. She's a terrific player."
Tara on rebounding:
"Rebounding rebounding rebounding. That's what I talked about to our team before the game, we've got to get on the glass, we've got to get second and third shots, and there was no bigger rebound than the rebound on the free throw that Alanna got."
Asked about how she kept the players from falling apart with all the early losses:Â
"They didn't get into Stanford because they were dumb. They are really intelligent young women who understand who we played, and that we played them without Britt. We were going into fights with one hand tied behind our backs, and we played without Di too in several games. We get Di and Britt back and all of a sudden we are a different team. And the leadership with Britt and Kayl knowing that it's the end that counts, it's getting better every game. I am really proud of this team. Some teams would have come apart. This team is extremely close. They have great leadership, great camaraderie, they are extremely unselfish. When Marta's out she is cheering for Kiana, when Britt's out she is cheering for Di or Alyssa. It's a really fun team to be around win or lose, but obviously it is more fun to be around if you win."
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 2006alum - 02-03-2018
Interesting that Tara specifically mentioned the jump shots from the short corners and the elbow off screens, which I thought was key to the win and relatively novel for this team (at least as the operative offensive strategy). If we can make those shots from the short corner and the elbow, we can break down zones without needing excellent three point shooting. I truly think it's why we won despite such poor outside shooting. One thing I am excited about with Fingall is that she's got a great jump shot from the elbow. She and Dodson will be a tremendous high post-low post combo once they start getting more playing time.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - 2006alum - 02-03-2018
Interesting that Tara specifically mentioned the jump shots from the short corners and the elbow off screens, which I thought was key to the win and relatively novel for this team (at least as the operative offensive strategy). If we can make those shots from the short corner and the elbow, we can break down zones without needing excellent three point shooting. I truly think it's why we won despite such poor outside shooting. One thing I am excited about with Fingall is that she's got a great jump shot from the elbow. She and Dodson will be a tremendous high post-low post combo once they start getting more playing time.
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - BobK - 02-04-2018
Defense wins championships and brobdingnagian congrats to great team D
Re: WBB: Stanford 60 Oregon State 57 - BobK - 02-04-2018
Defense wins championships and brobdingnagian congrats to great team D