Controversial Mascot Names in the News - USPTO Takes a Stand - Printable Version
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Changing times, it's a minefield - Redrum - 06-27-2014
Prince Lightfoot wrote a remarkable thing, how the word "Chicano" bothers him. I have no idea of his ethnicity or how he describes himself other than I guess he's Hispanic based on one post. The funny thing is, back when I was a student, the original organization of the argicultural workers in the Central Valley was taking place. The movement was visible here on campus urging the consumer world to boycott grapes... so I dutifully didn't eat grapes. Didn't much eat them anyway, but by continuing not to eat them, I was effortlessly carried along by the tides of history. BUT...back then speakers who "looked" hispanic and identified themselves as hispanic used another word: Chicano and one firebrand speaker (Dolores Huerta?) self-identified as "Chicana". It was a general nom de guerre and there were signs announcing "Chicano" pride, Chicano unity. They used the term, so others around campus and elsewhere used the term.Â
So, is Lightfoot just describing his personal preference, or is this the cultural/historical revision wheel turning, and what was good then is now considered bad?
Oh, and Cowboy Indian...nice try. Admire your courage. The answer is NO. We CANNOT just shut up and play football.
Re: Changing times, it's a minefield - CowboyIndian - 06-27-2014
(06-27-2014, 07:30 AM)Redrum link Wrote:So, is Lightfoot just describing his personal preference, or is this the cultural/historical revision wheel turning, and what was good then is now considered bad?
Oh, and Cowboy Indian...nice try. Admire your courage. The answer is NO. We CANNOT just shut up and play football.
I know. As a veteran of the 60s culture, class and actual wars. that threw me, too. Back in the day "chicano" was the new "black". Out of ignorance or ennui, I know I've missed a lot of cultural chicanery in the past 45 years or so but that was a surprise. Lightfoot....your serve.
Oh, and I had no such expectation. Just a desire for a freshet of stoicism in the face of adversity.... for a change.
Re: Controversial Mascot Names in the News - USPTO Takes a Stand - PrinceLightfoot - 06-27-2014
Let me provide a bit of background so everyone who is curious can better understand my experience, ethnicity, and point of view.
I am the second son of Mexican immigrants, a first generation American, and I grew up in the border town of El Paso, Texas. The Spanish language in public during the 70s, 80s, and 90s was oddly not as dominant as some would suspect given El Paso's demographic. There was a sense of pride being American and the need to assimilate into America's predominant culture where speaking English was considered a must in order to fully participate. That doesn't mean Spanish wasn't spoken but it wasn't uncommon to see one person speaking in Spanish and the other responding in English. My mother sat us down at around age 3 and instructed us to only speak English, watch only American TV shows, and read books written in English (even if we couldn't really read yet). This proved critical to the success my brothers and I have experienced in this country but that is a different topic altogether...
That acculturation by no means denied my Mexican heritage. For example, by the age of 14 I became a professional Mariachi musician and continued to do so until I was 28. I founded the Stanford Mariachi group in 1994 and it really blossomed with the arrival of another professional mariachi musician the following year.
Most of you have only been exposed to Californian Mexican-Americans which proudly call themselves Chicanos and their ideas. They were quite vocal on campus back in the early 90s. I was completely unaware of groups like MeCHa or United Farm Workers Union...unaware of people like Dolores Huerta and Cesar Chavez who just happened to die during my ProFro weekend....unaware of the concept of Aztlan or La Raza. The sense of activism and the correction of injustices they experienced was alive and well on campus. I agreed with some of their views but not the activist methods and never warmed up to the label "Chicano".
In El Paso, the word "Chicano" was derogatory and basically meant low-life Mexican-American. This was a view that was held by most non-Californian Mexican-Americans while living my first year on campus in Casa Zapata. We understood that Chicanos adopted the term in California and changed the meaning back in the 1960s during the civil rights movement. Somehow that name adoption made its way into academia but to those who were born before its meaning was changed taught their children "Don't say that word! It is disrespectful." If the NAACP or African-American studies professors decided one day to embrace the word "nigger" and claim it as a label of pride, does that suddenly just change the impact of that word for everyone who knew what that word meant before?
Redrum suspected correctly. This is a case of the cultural/historical revision wheel turning.
With all that said while I am still offended by that word at some level, I honestly do not care how people label me...heck, I am called a lot of things ;) I'll respond to those that are done so respectfully and spend my time on more worthwhile things than being offended.Â
Re: Controversial Mascot Names in the News - USPTO Takes a Stand - Rally - 06-27-2014
(06-27-2014, 09:20 AM)PrinceLightfoot link Wrote:Let me provide a bit of background so everyone who is curious can better understand my experience, ethnicity, and point of view.
I am the second son of Mexican immigrants, a first generation American, and I grew up in the border town of El Paso, Texas. The Spanish language in public during the 70s, 80s, and 90s was oddly not as dominant as some would suspect given El Paso's demographic. There was a sense of pride being American and the need to assimilate into America's predominant culture where speaking English was considered a must in order to fully participate. That doesn't mean Spanish wasn't spoken but it wasn't uncommon to see one person speaking in Spanish and the other responding in English. My mother sat us down at around age 3 and instructed us to only speak English, watch only American TV shows, and read books written in English (even if we couldn't really read yet). This proved critical to the success my brothers and I have experienced in this country but that is a different topic altogether...
That acculturation by no means denied my Mexican heritage. For example, by the age of 14 I became a professional Mariachi musician and continued to do so until I was 28. I founded the Stanford Mariachi group in 1994 and it really blossomed with the arrival of another professional mariachi musician the following year.
Most of you have only been exposed to Californian Mexican-Americans which proudly call themselves Chicanos and their ideas. They were quite vocal on campus back in the early 90s. I was completely unaware of groups like MeCHa or United Farm Workers Union...unaware of people like Dolores Huerta and Cesar Chavez who just happened to die during my ProFro weekend....unaware of the concept of Aztlan or La Raza. The sense of activism and the correction of injustices they experienced was alive and well on campus. I agreed with some of their views but not the activist methods and never warmed up to the label "Chicano".
In El Paso, the word "Chicano" was derogatory and basically meant low-life Mexican-American. This was a view that was held by most non-Californian Mexican-Americans while living my first year on campus in Casa Zapata. We understood that Chicanos adopted the term and changed the meaning back in the 1960s during the civil rights movement which for Mexican-Americans was primarily only in California. Somehow that name adoption made its way into academia but to those who were born before the name was changed taught their children "Don't say that word! It is disrespectful." If the NAACP or African-American studies professors decided one day to embrace the word "nigger" and claim it as a label of pride, does that suddenly just change the impact of that word for everyone who knew what that word meant before?
Redrum suspected correctly. This is a case of the cultural/historical revision wheel turning.
With all that said while I am still offended by that word at some level, I honestly do not care how people label me...heck, I am called a lot of things ;) I'll respond to those that are done so respectfully and spend my time on more worthwhile things than being offended.
Wonderfully expressed, Prince Lightfoot, and thank you for the insight.
So, as long as we don't call you a Be.ar - Redrum - 06-27-2014
...it's a free-fire zone?
Re: Controversial Mascot Names in the News - USPTO Takes a Stand - stupac2 - 06-27-2014
I can confirm that the hispanic/latin/whatever-you-want-to-call-it organization at Stanford still uses the word "Chicano", or at least did up until 2009. I saw it so often (they make a lot of flyers) that I would've never guessed anyone was bothered by the word. Good to know.
I attended a junior high school in San Jose in the mid-1970s - Mick - 06-27-2014
Our school's demographics was mixed, but the slight majority was Mexican-American. Chicano and Chicana were terms they used with pride, but I understand and appreciate PrinceLightfoot's perspective.
Hmmmmm. Is it possible...? - Redrum - 06-27-2014
Quote:In El Paso, the word "Chicano" was derogatory and basically meant low-life Mexican-American.
Is it possible that what we're not dealing with here is regional hispanic pride, but instead just that good 'ol Texas Thing ? You know, whatever somebody in some other state does, it's never as good as whatever they do in Texas?
Re: Controversial Mascot Names in the News - USPTO Takes a Stand - BostonCard - 06-27-2014
Thank you for the context Lightfoot. Context is everything in these things, and I (and many others on the board) appreciate the bit of context. Wikipedia says much the same thing.
Quote:The terms Chicano or Chicana (also spelled Xicano or Xicana) is a chosen identity of Mexican-Americans in the United States. The term "Chicano" is interchangeable with Mexican-American. Both names are chosen identities within the Mexican-American community in the United States. However, these terms have a wide range of meanings in various parts of the Southwest. The term became widely used during the Chicano Movement, mainly among Mexicans-Americans who wanted to express an identity, of cultural, ethnic and community pride.
The term "Chicano" had negative connotations before the Chicano Movement, and still is viewed negatively by more conservative members of this community, but it is gaining more acceptance as an identity of pride within the Mexican-American community in the United States.[citation needed] As people from Mexico could be of any ethnic origin or race, including European (mostly Spanish), the pro indigenous/mestizo Chicano identity, movement or ideology is not necessarily supported by and/or representative in many cases, the interest of all people who consider themselves as being of "Mexican" descent.
BC
Re: Hmmmmm. Is it possible...? - PrinceLightfoot - 06-27-2014
(06-27-2014, 11:28 AM)Redrum link Wrote:Quote:In El Paso, the word "Chicano" was derogatory and basically meant low-life Mexican-American.
Is it possible that what we're not dealing with here is regional hispanic pride, but instead just that good 'ol Texas Thing ? You know, whatever somebody in some other state does, it's not as good as whatever they do in Texas?
Hey! Don't Mess with Texas! ;) But seriously, it isn't a Texas pride thing...I live in Iowa these days ha!
The regional hispanic pride you refer to is the mother that adopted "Chicano". As I said later in the previous post, almost every non-Californian Mexican-American at that time considered that label derogatory - people in my dorm from New Mexico, other parts of Texas, and Arizona primarily. Why should I have adjust to what Californians so readily identify? Perhaps a "When in Rome.." approach would have been fine but I have never been able to pull off disingenuity convincingly. Their experience is not mine, but that does not exlcude my ability to understand and sympanthize. My experience is one that loved the situation I grew up in seeing a land of opportunity unobstructed and relatively fair. Having frequently crossed the river to visit family living in Juarez, it was quite clear living in the USA was preferable.
Re: Controversial Mascot Names in the News - USPTO Takes a Stand - PrinceLightfoot - 06-27-2014
(06-27-2014, 10:44 AM)stupac2 link Wrote:I can confirm that the hispanic/latin/whatever-you-want-to-call-it organization at Stanford still uses the word "Chicano", or at least did up until 2009. I saw it so often (they make a lot of flyers) that I would've never guessed anyone was bothered by the word. Good to know.
Yes, El Centro Chicano is still firmly placed in a corner of Old Union on the edge of White Plaza.
The loudest voices tend to be the most passionate and unbending in thought. The quieter ones are either less frequently voiced or drowned out. My views were definitely in the later and unpassionate. Most Mexican-Americans on campus as well as those part of the faculty were from California so Chicano prevailed.
Re: Controversial Mascot Names in the News - USPTO Takes a Stand - CTcard - 06-27-2014
(06-27-2014, 09:20 AM)PrinceLightfoot link Wrote:... There was a sense of pride being American and the need to assimilate into America's predominant culture where speaking English was considered a must in order to fully participate. That doesn't mean Spanish wasn't spoken but it wasn't uncommon to see one person speaking in Spanish and the other responding in English. My mother sat us down at around age 3 and instructed us to only speak English, watch only American TV shows, and read books written in English (even if we couldn't really read yet). This proved critical to the success my brothers and I have experienced in this country but that is a different topic altogether...
The decision to go with "only speak English, watch only American TV shows, and read books written in English" is an interesting decision I see immigrant families struggle with. It's also an area where I see attitudes changing over time.
We wife's immigrant family (Korea) definitely went with the same approach. They were absolutely determined she would speak perfect English and blend into America no matter what. The strategy for that was an "English-only for the kids" decision. That was fairly tough, as my wife's mother appeared in the USA with barely a word of English - so it took tremendous drive for her to raise and instruct her kids in this way.
The English over all decision had benefits and drawbacks for my wife. Her English is perfect, she is certainly as American as can be, and she has done well. On the other hand, her Korean is poor, particularly speaking, and while she enjoys many aspects of Korean culture, she cannot quite fully participate. This is particularly obvious when we are in Korea, where ironically I seem to feel more comfortable than she does. This is because, first of all nobody expects me to speak Korean (including me), and secondly when we are there I have a network of colleagues I work and socialize with while she has mainly relatives with limited English.
I have never heard my wife express any regret over these decisions her parents made, but I find it ironic that she is pushing harder for our son to learn Korean than her parents did for her. However, we have the inverse problem her mother had, with our inability to speak enough Korean at home to really make it work. I think, broadly speaking, these days there is a bigger push from immigrant families to keep the old language functioning at home - but it is hard to succeed as our pop-culture is overwhelming.
Re: Controversial Mascot Names in the News - USPTO Takes a Stand - SUBuddha - 06-27-2014
(06-27-2014, 06:13 PM)Publius link Wrote:My parents spoke to us in Mandarin exclusively, so my sister and I have near native fluency. It was never a question for my parents, and I'm glad they did it. If anything, it made our English better because we learned English from native speakers. My sister and I are the only Asian-Americans we've met that scored higher on SAT Verbal than Math. I wonder if being bilingual also makes you better at language because your brain develops more facility with language generally. There is also evidence that bilingualism enhances executive function in children. For me, the greatest benefit was having a fuller relationship with my grandparents that did not speak English.Publius,
If any of you out there are wondering whether to teach your kids another language, do it. Even if you are monolingual. It's one of the best gifts you can give your children. My daughter goes to a Chinese language pre-school. She has hapa, South Asian, Caucasian, and African-American classmates. They all speak fluently. I have full conversations with all of them in Chinese. Some are already more fluent than their ethnically Chinese parents. They can sign more songs in Chinese than I can.
I do feel closer to my ancestral culture because of my fluency in the language. I do not feel less American for it. Deeply understanding two cultures gives you additional insight into each one. It is a struggle at times reconciling the contradictions. Usually fun. Sometimes maddening.
Chomsky and a great deal of research would argue that, yes, bilingual education improves test scores, especially on verbal. This is why my kids, despite my lack of a second language, went to a Spanish/English day care. At 5 my daughter can speak in English, but code switches between Spanish and English with numbers, colors, body functions and animals. She asked for Spanish to English books for xmas last year. 8)
Ferarri,
My family's experience was much the same, my Nonie and Nono (great grandparents in my case instead of the typical grandparents) refused to let any of the family learn Italian. In my family my Nonie was actually stamped WOP on her forehead and told there were to many Itay's in New York when she reached Ellis Island, as she told the story, and shipped, by train, to Napa (Calistoga to be exact). Keep in mind she came across in 1903 for historical accuracy. My sister, ABD'd out of a PhD program in Sociolinguistics at LSJU and is the only person in 3 generations to speak and write the language. My wife's Nono who immigrated after WWII, in contrast, encouraged speaking the language and naming the kids with Italian family names, Omero (my nephew) is a 4th generation family name for instance. In fairness though, after being a resistance fighter in Italy, when he came to the U.S. he volunteered for Korea to speed citizenship. He is, like many of my Mexican American friends, one of the most ardent and proud "Americans" I have ever met.
Re: Controversial Mascot Names in the News - USPTO Takes a Stand - Rally - 06-27-2014
SUBuddha, the stories go on, and are important. My children know their Italian heritage but I suspect my grandchildren only relish the now famous surname. The stories of successful immigrant families are all the same, I think, whether hispanic, asian, or European. Early African, sadly is different, and Native Americans were never immigrants in the first place (well, not for a very long time.). My grandfather left his village at age 11 ( so the story goes, confirmed by my Italian relatives) to seek work in German mines, crossing the foothills of the Alps in the process. At 16 he returned, claimed his childhood sweetheart (! Think about that) and traveled on foot to Genova, where he bought passage to America. What drove him? What pulled him? When I knew him he was old, illiterate, and barely fluent in English. His favorite expression was "managia l'America!" Before I knew him he returned to Italy by boat to bury his father. When I knew him he often expressed a desire to return. When I asked him why he didn't he said he wanted to leave something for his sons. Daughters mattered less to him. On his death he left each son $6,000.00. When I lived with my relatives in Endenna (pop then 800) I naturally asked about my grandfather. They told me he had been called girella because as a child he played incessantly with a spinning top, that he had "abducted" my grandmother, and was lost to the family. Over the fireplace of the family home was a portrait of my great-grandfather. He wore a mustache and so, at that time, did I. It was like looking in a mirror. They took to calling me Francesco secundo. My grandmother left me a hectare of vineyard on the steep hillside overlooking the village. I helped harvest the grapes, but my cousins made it very clear that if I intended to claim ownership I had better be ready to fight . . . . And repay 70 years taxes. I let it rest.
Love immigration stories - Mick - 06-29-2014
My father-in-law's dad was a 6'5", 250 pound 15 year old and living about 50 km from Sarajevo when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated. Not wanting his brobdingnagian 15-year old son conscripted into the army, his dad put him on his uncle's merchant ship and told his son "don't come back until the war is over."Â
After two years, the now-17 year old was tired of the seafaring life (he'd been all over the world), landed in Los Angeles and became a prizefighter. He won his first eight fights, then was supposed to take a dive in the ninth fight. Either he didn't understand, or he didn't care, and KO'd his opponent with the first punch. He gets back to the training room where his trainer says, "Nicu, we need to get out of town. Here's two train tickets to San Francisco. We're not getting off in either SF or SJ, the mob will be waiting for us." So they looked on a map, saw "Palo Alto" in the middle and got off the train there. Nick joined the Palo Alto Sheriff's department, where he became the guy who would be the first one breaking in a door at speakeasies in the Whiskey Gulch area.
So three funny things. When I first heard this story, I heard it in front of an old retired Santa Clara County Sheriff named Chuck Prelsnik, who actually hired Nick. During the conversation, I asked him "what were the qualifications to be a small town sheriff in America in the early 20th century?" He replied "Pretty easy. If you could take on four guys at once, you were the sheriff."
Second, I always thought the story was apocryphal...but then I cleaned out Nick's widow's garage and found his boxing gloves, boxing programs, old switchblades and rusted out guns he'd taken off of criminals, along with a lot of other items that validated the story completely.Â
Third, his son (my father in law) ended up playing basketball for Stanford in the mid-1950s, and his daughter played lacrosse for Stanford in the late 1980s/early 1990s.
Love those immigration stories.
Re: Controversial Mascot Names in the News - USPTO Takes a Stand - stupac2 - 06-29-2014
Only sort of related, but one of the things we did for my wedding was use picnic-style baskets whenever possible, and while packing up to go home I noticed this:
![[Image: rx4iLJI.jpg?1]](http://i.imgur.com/rx4iLJI.jpg?1)
Something tells me that company has since been renamed (or gone out of business).
Re: Controversial Mascot Names in the News - USPTO Takes a Stand - CowboyIndian - 06-29-2014
(06-29-2014, 03:22 PM)garvin link Wrote:When I was in high school, this was what the coach of the baseball team chewed...and, consequently, what a lot of the players did, too. I see it's still around.
The Chewer's Tale: I started on Beech-Nut, but Red Man was a little sweeter and moister within a much more aesthetically pleasing package.
![[Image: red_man_original.jpg]](http://media.northerner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/63/small_image/135x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/r/e/red_man_original.jpg)
Worked my way through Brown's Mule and Bull o'the Woods to Skoal and finally found a soft landing spot at Copenhagen. Cope was $0.25 a can when I started and close to $5.00 when I quit a few years ago, which was among the most difficult things I've done. However, if I look at the horizon one of these days and see a mushroom cloud or a tidal wave, I'm loading up the lip.
Re: Love immigration stories - CTcard - 06-30-2014
(06-30-2014, 07:02 AM)Publius link Wrote:Here's the best Chinese-American immigration story I've read. I wish I could remember the names and where I read this (probably one of Peter Hessler's books). I'm probably getting some of the details wrong. Here's the gist. Two friends from China became friends in the US as graduate students. One got his PhD in Literature. The other in Physics. After the Communist revolution, the writer tried to persuade the Physicist to go back to China. The writer felt it was their patriotic duty to return home to educate the next generation and help the motherland. The Physicist told him that this was stupid and crazy because the Communists would bring 1984 to life. The writer went back and the Communists celebrated him at first. Eventually persecution during the Cultural Revolution drove him to suicide. The Physicist won a Nobel Prize.
I think that the physicist has to be one of two possible people: Yang Chen Ning or Lee Tsung-Dao. They won the Nobel together in 1957, and were notable for being very young. Particularly Lee who was (probably) the second youngest to receive the Nobel Prize.*
Here is a link to their page at the Nobel web site. There is a bunch of biographical information available using the links on the left panel.
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1957/
*I have seen articles listing Lee as the second and as the third youngest Nobel Prize winner. I am guessing the difference is some technicality such as a difference between when the prize is announced versus when the prize was physically received. Interestingly, the one he is just about tied with is Werner Heisenberg - famous for the uncertainty principle and uncertainty over whether he was a Nazi. The youngest was William Bragg, famous for working with his Dad on the theory of x-ray scattering from crystals and probably unknown to most of this board.
Update on: Love immigration stories - Mick - 06-30-2014
(06-29-2014, 08:27 AM)Mick link Wrote:My father-in-law's dad was a 6'5", 250 pound 15 year old and living about 50 km from Sarajevo when Archduke Ferdinand was assassinated. Not wanting his brobdingnagian 15-year old son conscripted into the army, his dad put him on his uncle's merchant ship and told his son "don't come back until the war is over."Â
After two years, the now-17 year old was tired of the seafaring life (he'd been all over the world), landed in Los Angeles and became a prizefighter. He won his first eight fights, then was supposed to take a dive in the ninth fight. Either he didn't understand, or he didn't care, and KO'd his opponent with the first punch. He gets back to the training room where his trainer says, "Nicu, we need to get out of town. Here's two train tickets to San Francisco. We're not getting off in either SF or SJ, the mob will be waiting for us." So they looked on a map, saw "Palo Alto" in the middle and got off the train there. Nick joined the Palo Alto Sheriff's department, where he became the guy who would be the first one breaking in a door at speakeasies in the Whiskey Gulch area.
So three funny things. When I first heard this story, I heard it in front of an old retired Santa Clara County Sheriff named Chuck Prelsnik, who actually hired Nick. During the conversation, I asked him "what were the qualifications to be a small town sheriff in America in the early 20th century?" He replied "Pretty easy. If you could take on four guys at once, you were the sheriff."
Second, I always thought the story was apocryphal...but then I cleaned out Nick's widow's garage and found his boxing gloves, boxing programs, old switchblades and rusted out guns he'd taken off of criminals, along with a lot of other items that validated the story completely.Â
Third, his son (my father in law) ended up playing basketball for Stanford in the mid-1950s, and his daughter played lacrosse for Stanford in the late 1980s/early 1990s.
Love those immigration stories.
I just realized that the Sheriff Chuck Prelsnik in my earlier story played football for Pop Warner at Stanford in the early 1930s...
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1932-orig-photo-chuck-prelsnik-118120121
Re: Love immigration stories - 82 Card - 06-30-2014
(06-29-2014, 08:27 AM)Mick link Wrote:... Nick joined the Palo Alto Sheriff's department, where he became the guy who would be the first one breaking in a door at speakeasies in the Whiskey Gulch area....
Wouldn't that be outside the jurisdiction of a Palo Alto officer? I wonder if family lore may have actually been referring to what was at one time the city of Mayfield. Mayfield was the wet town that refused to go dry for Leland Stanford, prompting Stanford to set up Palo Alto. Mayfield was incorporated into Palo Alto in 1925. A couple of links:
History of prohibition in Palo Alto:
http://www.paloaltohistory.com/liquor-in-palo-alto.php
Mayfield incorporated by Palo Alto:
http://www.paloaltohistory.com/the-beginning-of-mayfields-end.php