Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - Printable Version
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RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - Goose - 12-27-2023
I know essentially nothing about El-R. According to Wikipedia it involves doing a linear regression relating two "aggregate" (composed of many individual) measurements to use one as a estimator/predictor of the other. Two somewhat prominent professors (as mentioned in the NY Post article) Michael C. Herron and Kenneth W. Shotts have a long history of showing that El-R can lead to conclusions that contradict the assumptions under which the aggregations were formed. These two argued that Gay's paper contained such inconsistencies. I am in no position to argue that issue either way.
However, IMO the "big deal" is that the two professors stated they were "limited" in their analysis because Gay would not share her underlying data with them. Having one's work severely criticized isn't necessarily an indication that criticism is warranted or even correct. It can also make you justifiably angry. However, it is difficult to refute such an analysis if you are unwilling to make your data public. Even if it is a "hatchet job", sharing the raw data should do nothing but perhaps help debunk that analysis. Not doing so is very hard to explain if you are actually believe you are on "solid ground". It also isn't consistent with free and open inquiry. Therein is the problem.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - dabigv13 - 12-27-2023
I don't really know what ecological regression is and I have no basis of knowing how common or expected it would be to share your underlying data with someone who isn't in the same field, whose apparent "thing" is debunking the statistical method you used. I would imagine many professors would just ignore that email but my academic expertise is limited so maybe I'm mistaken.
Maybe cardcrimson does? But probably not if the NY Post is what's being cited.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - Goose - 12-27-2023
(12-27-2023, 01:25 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: I don't really know what ecological regression is and I have no basis of knowing how common or expected it would be to share your underlying data with someone who isn't in the same field, whose apparent "thing" is debunking the statistical method you used. I would imagine many professors would just ignore that email but my academic expertise is limited so maybe I'm mistaken.You are probably correct that ignoring such a request for your data isn't uncommon, at least initially. It is probably also not uncommon to disregard criticism of your work from people you think are "unqualified" and are "out to get you". I suspect MTL felt exactly that way about computer people questioning some of his publications. However, once a criticism is in the public domain, failure to follow up and debunk it with data is risky. If you believe the "debunking" of your statistics is incorrect, you should hoist the critics on their own petard. If you can't, it may come back to bite you. If you can't, you should also consider how strong your position is.
Quote:But probably not if the NY Post is what's being cited.I totally "get it" that the NY Post has its "agenda". However, AFAIK nobody has disputed that Michael C. Herron and Kenneth W. Shotts did in fact lodge the criticisms cited. If they are totally off base, it should be simple for Gay to cite the work that debunks them. It may exist. I didn't find it, but I don't claim to be a statistician.
I do know that when statistics are used to "prove" an assertion, it is often necessary to examine whether the assumptions of a given statistical method are in fact met. I also know from experience that this step is often omitted or not done rigorously Sometimes it is very hard to do, as confounding factors that may not be obvious initially pop up after the analysis is "done". For that reason, IMO Gay should have co-operated and supplied the data, even after the fact. Better still, she should have pointed out where and why the critics were wrong. Yes, you don't have to do that, but if you don't and subsequently get in a public administrative role, it may not end well for you.
The problem is there are several general categories of the situation. The work may be basically "correct" and the criticism debunked. The work may arguably be in error, but it is at worst an honest difference of opinion. The work may also be knowingly flawed. Not providing the data or debunking the criticism makes it look suspiciously like the last alternative.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - 81alum - 12-27-2023
I will be consistent with what I said about MTL: Gay should resign. University Presidents must be held to a higher standard than faculty in general since they can be called upon to make the final decisions about retention, tenure and promotion, or at the least appoint the Provost who may make such decisions. Someone who was sloppy with her citations is not the person you would want to place in a position of judgment over other faculty research. I don't want my President to be a person who was "merely sloppy" with her research. I don't need to split hairs and know the extent of that sloppiness. She is clearly not one of Harvard's most outstanding scholars, and that is enough for her to go.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - cardcrimson - 12-27-2023
(12-27-2023, 09:57 AM)dabigv13 Wrote: Cardcrimson can you tell me what "ecological regression" is and why Gay's logic was faulty?
No, but perhaps you might reach out to the prof at the GSB.
(12-27-2023, 01:25 PM)dabigv13 Wrote: I don't really know what ecological regression is and I have no basis of knowing how common or expected it would be to share your underlying data with someone who isn't in the same field, whose apparent "thing" is debunking the statistical method you used. I would imagine many professors would just ignore that email but my academic expertise is limited so maybe I'm mistaken.Why the pot shots? Just posted what popped up on my news feed from Google. As an alumnus of both (hence cardcrimson), I guess Google thought I might be interested in the article. I thought folks here might be interested, as well. Just a messenger, just shoot me, I guess.
Maybe cardcrimson does? But probably not if the NY Post is what's being cited.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - Mick - 12-27-2023
(12-27-2023, 05:36 PM)81alum Wrote: I will be consistent with what I said about MTL: Gay should resign. University Presidents must be held to a higher standard than faculty in general since they can be called upon to make the final decisions about retention, tenure and promotion, or at the least appoint the Provost who may make such decisions. Someone who was sloppy with her citations is not the person you would want to place in a position of judgment over other faculty research. I don't want my President to be a person who was "merely sloppy" with her research. I don't need to split hairs and know the extent of that sloppiness. She is clearly not one of Harvard's most outstanding scholars, and that is enough for her to go.
They also preside over an institution in which students (not just faculty) are held to rigorous disciplinary processes governing their own citations and original work versus plagiarized work. More than two dozen Harvard students were expelled for academic dishonesty (138 academic integrity cases were reviewed, 88 were freshmen. 121 were in STEM courses. 99 resulted in a finding of academic dishonesty). Exam Cheating was the most popular cited reason, plagiarism was second most popular. An additional 56 students were put on probation. Another 10 were admonished (warned). Six were referred for local sanction; e.g., the faculty member leading the course determined the disciplinary action. Check out the graph on this link:
In Six-Year High, 27 Undergraduates Forced to Withdraw from Harvard in 2020-2021 Due to Honor Code Violations | News | The Harvard Crimson (thecrimson.com)
Harvard students are expelled for plagiarism. Why does Claudine Gay get a pass? (msn.com)
The Harvard Crimson, which had vehemently defended President Dr. Claudine Gay this past week concluded that the school's leader did not pass the same level of academic integrity required of its students.
Harvard Crimson Concludes University President’s Plagiarism Violates School’s ‘Current Policies’ Around ‘Academic Integrity’
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - 2006alum - 12-27-2023
Whatever my own personal views on this issue (which seem to be largely aligned with everyone else's), putting my mod hat on for a moment, we're starting to get complaints that this is political (which it is), and it's no longer related to Stanford, sports, or Stanford sports. So let's reorient this towards MTL rather than dissect some other campus's latest embarassment... Thanks!
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - BigJohn043 - 12-27-2023
(12-27-2023, 08:25 PM)2006alum Wrote: Whatever my own personal views on this issue (which seem to be largely aligned with everyone else's), putting my mod hat on for a moment, we're starting to get complaints that this is political (which it is), and it's no longer related to Stanford, sports, or Stanford sports. So let's reorient this towards MTL rather than dissect some other campus's latest embarassment... Thanks!
Lots of players on both sides of this debate have political motivations, as they often do. But the core issues of plagiarism and data integrity are not political at all. Or at least they shouldn't be.
I am not sure how a year after our President resigned over academic integrity issues the fact that the Harvard President has some similar issue is not relevant....
Just my view....
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - BostonCard - 01-02-2024
Just to close the loop on this, without taking a position here, I will note that Claudine Gray resigned as President of Harvard.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/01/02/us/claudine-gay-harvard
BC
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - TrumpCard - 01-02-2024
(01-02-2024, 12:34 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Just to close the loop on this, without taking a position here, I will note that Claudine Gray resigned as President of Harvard.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/01/02/us/claudine-gay-harvard
BC
Buh-bye. It's a travesty that some missing footnotes led to her downfall considering the better available basis for her ouster, but I'll take it nonetheless.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - cardcrimson - 01-03-2024
Pretty sad state of academia when the presidents of the top two US universities resign over intellectual honesty within six months of each other, and even more disappointing both had deep ties to Stanford.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - Goose - 01-03-2024
https://www.yahoo.com/news/opinion-real-lesson-claudine-gay-162013239.html
Some food for thought. I agree with most of his analysis of the process by which University Presidents are appointed. I am more than a little skeptical about the ability of any University administrator's ability to "lean into" any of the issues because it is such a minefield among all the "special interest" groups, both on campus and off. Trying to make any statement about what the "Universities policy" towards many important questions will always sound "mealy-mouthed" because it often isn't simple. Trying to dumb it down causes false/inaccurate statements to be made, and actually trying to explain it will to many (those looking for a "simple" answer) appear to be avoiding the question. Tough job at best.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - SkiBum80 - 01-04-2024
(01-02-2024, 12:38 PM)TrumpCard Wrote:Reminds me of Al Capone going to jail for tax fraud(01-02-2024, 12:34 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Just to close the loop on this, without taking a position here, I will note that Claudine Gray resigned as President of Harvard.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/01/02/us/claudine-gay-harvard
BC
Buh-bye. It's a travesty that some missing footnotes led to her downfall considering the better available basis for her ouster, but I'll take it nonetheless.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - oldalum - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 03:33 PM)SkiBum80 Wrote: Reminds me of Al Capone going to jail for tax fraudYeah, they didn't have the RICO law back then, so they had to make do with what they had.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - 82lsju - 01-04-2024
Quote:Marc Tessier-Lavigne told shareholders in 2009 that his research would “turn our current understanding of Alzheimer’s upside down.” Now, the former Stanford president and his co-authors have retracted the paper he once heralded, conceding they do not have confidence in its data.
The prominent journal Nature announced the retraction in a Dec. 18 note signed by all four co-authors. The note acknowledged a number of image anomalies and biostatistical errors, but denied that the study had included falsified data. Tessier-Lavigne was first urged to retract the paper over a decade ago but maintained as recently as July that he would not.
https://stanforddaily.com/2023/12/31/blockbuster-alzheimers-paper-retracted-by-former-stanford-president-after-a-decade-of-resistance/
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - BostonCard - 01-22-2024
Similar allegations against the CEO and President of Dana Farber (which is affiliated with Harvard Medical School), as well as the COO, Director of Clinical Investigation Research Program and a Program Director.
Quote:The most serious, he said, had to do with images of experimental results that had signs of copy-and-pasting by software such as Adobe Photoshop. “Those are pixel-perfect matches for the same area, but it’s supposed to be a different sample,” he said.
https://www.wsj.com/health/dana-farber-harvard-retractions-corrections-ceo-laurie-glimcher-935636f5?st=84x4tlvd3wux9pc&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Not a good look for my other alma mater.
BC
TrumpCard - TrumpCard - 02-01-2024
MTL apparently not alone:
https://www.wsj.com/science/harvard-professors-papers-contain-copied-images-science-sleuth-claims-82e2610e?mod=mhp
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - chrisk - 02-02-2024
It is notable that fun is mentioned in this update from the Stanford search committee.
https://news.stanford.edu/report/2024/01/29/update-presidential-search/
One of the four themes informing the search, Culture:
Elevating Stanford’s Culture: The next president should come to the position ready to affirm Stanford’s historic spirit of optimism, curiosity, grit, boldness, and fun, preserving and elevating that combination which has made Stanford unique. Necessarily, the president should foster an environment and campus culture where all individuals can thrive.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - Goose - 04-14-2024
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2024/04/02/university-of-arizona-president-robert-robbins-announces-he-will-resign/?sh=72dfd6f329fb
Another president resigns. RR was effective in many things but the financial crisis brought on by mismanagement basically sealed his doom. His response to the problem has also in many ways been tone deaf. The Governor also really doesn't like him, which for UofA is a big problem. The reality is they will need help getting out of this mess, probably in the form of a large State infusion. That wasn't going to happen with RR at the helm. It may not happen anyway, but with him gone there is a better chance.
RE: Marc Tessier-Lavigne will resign effective Aug 31, 2023 - BostonCard - 04-23-2024
MTL will now lead a new company, Xaira Therapeutics, which had a splashy launch with $1 billion dollars of funding "to transform drug discovery and development with AI"
https://endpts.com/marc-tessier-lavigne-on-leaving-stanford-and-joining-ai-mega-startup-xaira/
Sorry, it is behind a paywall, but this is an interview with MTL about his new job. There was a question in the interview about his time at Stanford (and whether he intends to incorporate any changes in overseeing the research in his new position):
Quote:Dunn: On your time at Stanford, the investigation found no evidence of data manipulation or fraud on your part. But it did criticize your laboratory oversight and management, and you acknowledged there were things you should have done better. What specifically do you plan to do differently at Xaira in terms of supervising science? And why should you be trusted in that type of position?
Tessier-Lavigne: Well, first, I’m obviously here to talk about Xaira. But maybe I can share a few thoughts.
First, I stand by the quality and rigor of my body of research as a whole. I’ve run a research lab for over three decades with 74 papers which I’m a principal author, and a handful of them had issues, as you pointed out. The panel concluded that I didn’t engage in any scientific misconduct, and I could not have reasonably been expected to have known about it.
And in terms of the lessons I take from this, I have run my lab by putting trust in my team. I’ve had exceptional lab members. I trusted that the data they were presenting to me were real and accurate. In general, that trust was entirely merited. But that created a vulnerability that allowed for these issues to arise in a few papers. What I take from that is the importance of also having an appropriate level of skepticism about data that are brought.
Dunn: Are there specific changes you plan to incorporate in overseeing and leading Xaira?
Tessier-Lavigne: Certainly. What this has driven home for me is the importance of having controls in place to ensure that your data that come forward are real and accurate, and not to take that at face value. And it’s certainly a principle that I’ll be applying here.
BC