WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - Printable Version
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 (/thread-22653.html)
+- The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board)
+-- Forum: C-House! (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The CardBoard (https://thecardboard.org/board/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 (/thread-22653.html)
RE: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - jonnyss - 11-28-2021
(11-28-2021, 11:43 AM)teejers1 Wrote:(11-28-2021, 03:25 AM)M T Wrote:(11-27-2021, 11:21 PM)teejers1 Wrote: P.S. Out of curiosity, did you attend any of the games at Maples the last year Carrington was on The Farm?
Out of curiosity, why do you ask?
Judging by your posts mentioning "WBB" or "Carrington", it seems you started commenting on WBB in Nov. 2019 (Carrington's last month of playing at Stanford).
Out of curiosity, did you attend any of the WBB games during Carrington's career before her last year on The Farm?
If not, then you saw at most only her last 4 games at Stanford. And further, you came to conclusions about Tara's substitution patterns by your 2nd or 3rd game. You continue with those opinions it seems.
Oh for goodness sakes. I've been attending Stanford women's hoops games for a loooong time (20 years, at least).
And that's all I'll say in response to your ridiculous post . . . okay, I lied. If you had attended games, watched what was happening in the games, watched what was happening on the bench, and recall the whole scholarship situation when it came to Carrington's last year of eligibility, you might have questions yourself.
But whatever. Tara is a Hall of Famer. She never makes mistakes. Everyone is happy all the time. Blah, blah, blah.
Look, it can be equally true that Tara is an awesome coach; Stanford was and is lucky to have her; and certain players have ended up in her doghouse for whatever reason. Why is that so hard to comprehend or believe?
dijonai was my favorite player from high school through her time at stanford, so i followed her career pretty closely. i think you may be forgetting that her playing time was affected by injuries. her last year at stanford, she was still recovering from a recurrence of a serious knee injury. by the next year at baylor, she was healthy. in terms of whether tara should have given the available 5th year scholarship to dijonai or anna, i would have preferred dijonai, but i speculated that tara anticipated that dijonai and haley would be splitting time at the same position - not ideal for players one would expect to play 30-35 minutes. (haley of course got injured, but that was not expected).
otoh, dijonai certainly blossomed at baylor, so i suppose it's conceivable that i'm wrong and mulkey was more willing than tara to center an offense around dijonai. it was wonderful to see her play against uconn. and she was fouled!!!
link
RE: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - Softball Fan - 11-28-2021
(11-27-2021, 09:55 PM)81alum Wrote: I think the whole conversation about Tara pulling players too quickly when they foul, as if this is some kind of punishment for the player, is completely off base.
It is my understanding that Tara pulls players after they foul not to "punish" them for fouling or even to teach them how not to foul (although that might be a side benefit) but because statistically it is far more likely that they will pick up a second foul quickly if left in. Once a ref starts watching a particular player, they often call two fouls in a row. Taking the player out--even if only for a short time--breaks that ref's immediate attention to that player.
The players must know this. It is in their own interest to come out of the game after each foul to stop the refs watching them too carefully.
This is just another example of what Tara knows that most fans do not. She was deeply into analytics before that became a word in basketball.
Once a ref starts watching a particular player, they often call two fouls in a row. Taking the player out--even if only for a short time--breaks that ref's immediate attention to that player.
Do you have some statistics to support that? Common sense tells me all refs would publicly say they apply rules in an even-handed manner throughout the game. It would be helpful to see statistical proof that refs are more inclined to call two fouls in a row on a player.
...because statistically it is far more likely that they will pick up a second foul quickly if left in.
I'd be interested to see statistics on this. The premise goes against human nature. Usually a foul is considered a mistake. Generally speaking human beings are less inclined to repeat a mistake when the mistake is fresh in their mind. At best I would expect a random distribution of the time intervals between when a player fouls and then commits a subsequent foul.
RE: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - BostonCard - 11-28-2021
Carrington averaged 29 minutes per game (scoring 14 log) her junior year at Stanford. I don’t think the idea that she was not getting enough PT holds water. She was injured most of her senior year and only played 5 games. As a graduate transfer to Baylor, she played 24 minutes per game and averaged 14 ppg.
We talked about the transfer situation contemporaneously on this board, and my recollection about the situation matches what she said. Until COVID removed the scholarship cap, we had a spot for one player, and we were waiting to hear whether Anna Wilson would be granted a hardship waiver by the NCAA. At the time, there was a debate here over whether we should have prioritized getting Carrington a fifth year instead of Wilson, with the board split between those that felt Carrington would have given us a better lineup (probably), and those who maintained that if we made any promises to Wilson, we shouldn’t go back on them. In the end, Vanderveer stuck with Wilson, and given that we won a National title and Wilson was the pac-12 co-defensive player of the year, it is really tough to argue that it was the “wrong” choice.
BC
RE: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - old spanish trail - 11-28-2021
(11-28-2021, 01:20 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Carrington averaged 29 minutes per game (scoring 14 log) her junior year at Stanford. I don’t think the idea that she was not getting enough PT holds water. She was injured most of her senior year and only played 5 games. As a graduate transfer to Baylor, she played 24 minutes per game and averaged 14 ppg.
We talked about the transfer situation contemporaneously on this board, and my recollection about the situation matches what she said. Until COVID removed the scholarship cap, we had a spot for one player, and we were waiting to hear whether Anna Wilson would be granted a hardship waiver by the NCAA. At the time, there was a debate here over whether we should have prioritized getting Carrington a fifth year instead of Wilson, with the board split between those that felt Carrington would have given us a better lineup (probably), and those who maintained that if we made any promises to Wilson, we shouldn’t go back on them. In the end, Vanderveer stuck with Wilson, and given that we won a National title and Wilson was the pac-12 co-defensive player of the year, it is really tough to argue that it was the “wrong” choice.
BC
Yep
RE: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - 81alum - 11-28-2021
(11-28-2021, 12:31 PM)paloalto Wrote:That is how one of the assistant coaches explained it at a chalk talk years ago. I no longer remember which one it was. I have no statistics to back this up but I am sure the coaching staff does, or they would not do it. I just took the coaches' word for it. It does seems to conform with my experience watching as a fan. Getting two quick fouls is a common occurrence, and the second has sometimes come while Tara is trying to get the player subbed out.(11-27-2021, 09:55 PM)81alum Wrote: I think the whole conversation about Tara pulling players too quickly when they foul, as if this is some kind of punishment for the player, is completely off base.
It is my understanding that Tara pulls players after they foul not to "punish" them for fouling or even to teach them how not to foul (although that might be a side benefit) but because statistically it is far more likely that they will pick up a second foul quickly if left in. Once a ref starts watching a particular player, they often call two fouls in a row. Taking the player out--even if only for a short time--breaks that ref's immediate attention to that player.
The players must know this. It is in their own interest to come out of the game after each foul to stop the refs watching them too carefully.
This is just another example of what Tara knows that most fans do not. She was deeply into analytics before that became a word in basketball.
Once a ref starts watching a particular player, they often call two fouls in a row. Taking the player out--even if only for a short time--breaks that ref's immediate attention to that player.
Do you have some statistics to support that? Common sense tells me all refs would publicly say they apply rules in an even-handed manner throughout the game. It would be helpful to see statistical proof that refs are more inclined to call two fouls in a row on a player.
...because statistically it is far more likely that they will pick up a second foul quickly if left in.
I'd be interested to see statistics on this. The premise goes against human nature. Usually a foul is considered a mistake. Generally speaking human beings are less inclined to repeat a mistake when the mistake is fresh in their mind. At best I would expect a random distribution of the time intervals between when a player fouls and then commits a subsequent foul.
Even if the coaches were wrong about their analytics, the explanation nonetheless has to change the players' mindset about these substitutions, since they believe that their coaches are protecting them.
RE: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - CompSci87 - 11-28-2021
Assuming the coaches had statistics showing that a quick second foul is common, there could be other reasons besides ref bias. The player might be upset and distracted after being whistled. She might be trying to do something extra to make up for the mistake and end up making another. The foul might be a sign of fatigue. All are good reasons to give the player a break to cool down and observe for a while.
In addition, sometimes there aren't a lot of breaks in the action and players are waiting on the bench or even at the scorer's table for a chance to come in. So, often someone will sub out when a foul is committed. Sometimes it will be the player who fouled just because it was about time to sub for her anyway.
RE: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - crackpot - 11-28-2021
(11-28-2021, 03:06 PM)CompSci87 Wrote: Assuming the coaches had statistics showing that a quick second foul is common, there could be other reasons besides ref bias. The player might be upset and distracted after being whistled. She might be trying to do something extra to make up for the mistake and end up making another. The foul might be a sign of fatigue. All are good reasons to give the player a break to cool down and observe for a while.
In addition, sometimes there aren't a lot of breaks in the action and players are waiting on the bench or even at the scorer's table for a chance to come in. So, often someone will sub out when a foul is committed. Sometimes it will be the player who fouled just because it was about time to sub for her anyway.
Excellent point. And almost always when they get pulled, they are sat next to a coach who (at least from my seat) appears to be explaining what happened/could have been done better..
WRT PT, I recall Tara saying way back when Nygaard was a senior that players come in with an empty bank account of trust. As they play more without mistakes, they are more likely to fill up that bank account, and by her senior year, Nygaard had a larger account that whichever player was used in the question. I don't recall who that was. But think of it yourself (especially in the late 90s/early 2000s)--we all had that player who'd be at the scorer's table ready to check in and your stomach would be clenching like oh no!
RE: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - chimera - 11-28-2021
(11-28-2021, 01:20 PM)BostonCard Wrote: Carrington averaged 29 minutes per game (scoring 14 log) her junior year at Stanford. I don’t think the idea that she was not getting enough PT holds water. She was injured most of her senior year and only played 5 games. As a graduate transfer to Baylor, she played 24 minutes per game and averaged 14 ppg.
We talked about the transfer situation contemporaneously on this board, and my recollection about the situation matches what she said. Until COVID removed the scholarship cap, we had a spot for one player, and we were waiting to hear whether Anna Wilson would be granted a hardship waiver by the NCAA. At the time, there was a debate here over whether we should have prioritized getting Carrington a fifth year instead of Wilson, with the board split between those that felt Carrington would have given us a better lineup (probably), and those who maintained that if we made any promises to Wilson, we shouldn’t go back on them. In the end, Vanderveer stuck with Wilson, and given that we won a National title and Wilson was the pac-12 co-defensive player of the year, it is really tough to argue that it was the “wrong” choice.
BC
This is my recollection as well. By the time Moskau decided to transfer and a second scholarship opened up, Carrington said she had already decided to go. She could have changed her mind and stayed, but she wanted a new experience and went.
RE: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - BillBradley - 11-28-2021
(11-28-2021, 02:47 PM)81alum Wrote:I think the rationale holds up. Even if there's no statistical support, the players know that it's a hot button for Tara and she sticks to it, so...better learn how to defend without fouling. Move your feet, arms straight up, etc. Other coaches have a quick trigger on things like turnovers. So...don't turn it over.(11-28-2021, 12:31 PM)paloalto Wrote:That is how one of the assistant coaches explained it at a chalk talk years ago. I no longer remember which one it was. I have no statistics to back this up but I am sure the coaching staff does, or they would not do it. I just took the coaches' word for it. It does seems to conform with my experience watching as a fan. Getting two quick fouls is a common occurrence, and the second has sometimes come while Tara is trying to get the player subbed out.(11-27-2021, 09:55 PM)81alum Wrote: I think the whole conversation about Tara pulling players too quickly when they foul, as if this is some kind of punishment for the player, is completely off base.
It is my understanding that Tara pulls players after they foul not to "punish" them for fouling or even to teach them how not to foul (although that might be a side benefit) but because statistically it is far more likely that they will pick up a second foul quickly if left in. Once a ref starts watching a particular player, they often call two fouls in a row. Taking the player out--even if only for a short time--breaks that ref's immediate attention to that player.
The players must know this. It is in their own interest to come out of the game after each foul to stop the refs watching them too carefully.
This is just another example of what Tara knows that most fans do not. She was deeply into analytics before that became a word in basketball.
Once a ref starts watching a particular player, they often call two fouls in a row. Taking the player out--even if only for a short time--breaks that ref's immediate attention to that player.
Do you have some statistics to support that? Common sense tells me all refs would publicly say they apply rules in an even-handed manner throughout the game. It would be helpful to see statistical proof that refs are more inclined to call two fouls in a row on a player.
...because statistically it is far more likely that they will pick up a second foul quickly if left in.
I'd be interested to see statistics on this. The premise goes against human nature. Usually a foul is considered a mistake. Generally speaking human beings are less inclined to repeat a mistake when the mistake is fresh in their mind. At best I would expect a random distribution of the time intervals between when a player fouls and then commits a subsequent foul.
Even if the coaches were wrong about their analytics, the explanation nonetheless has to change the players' mindset about these substitutions, since they believe that their coaches are protecting them.
RE: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - WBB fan - 11-28-2021
Seems to me that all the recent comments about coaching have little to do with the game against South Florida. Should all this go into a new thread? I don't have a problem with the discussion, just where it's taking place.
RE: WBB: Stanford 54 South Florida 57 - martyup - 11-29-2021
(11-28-2021, 07:41 PM)WBB fan Wrote: Seems to me that all the recent comments about coaching have little to do with the game against South Florida. Should all this go into a new thread? I don't have a problem with the discussion, just where it's taking place.
Good point. I'm closing this game thread. People are welcome to start a new thread about Tara's coaching.