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Kyle Peterson CWS - OutsiderFan - 06-22-2017

Was watching the CWS the other night and heard Kyle Peterson talking about the MLB draft vis-a-vis college baseball.  He said from a statistical standpoint, high school players drafted by MLB after round 4 don't make it to MLB.  Given this he suggested the MLB draft should be no more than 3-4 rounds, and then after that, high school players can be free agents, or more hopefully just opt to play in college.

Peterson suggested it is difficult to project college players to the MLB level, and near impossible to do so with 17-18 year olds.  And of course, he believes more kids should go to college for the education and experience.  This proposal would make college baseball much more of a development league for MLB than it already is, and would probably lead to contraction of MiLB teams since so many more players would be opting for college.

This has probably been discussed before, maybe even beaten to death, but if the MLB draft was reduced, and college became a more frequent option for high school kids, might MLB help college baseball play with wood bats?  And then the question is with more talent going into college baseball and it becoming more of a development system for MLB, might interest and revenues in college baseball grow?

Peterson's one suggestion to reduce the rounds in the draft might seem like a good idea on the surface, but it sure does have many implications!

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - CowboyIndian - 06-22-2017


http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/joe-nuxhall-makes-mlb-debut-at-15

[Image: 593-t2225726-340.jpg]

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - CTcard - 06-22-2017

(06-22-2017, 07:43 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:... Given this he suggested the MLB draft should be no more than 3-4 rounds, and then after that, high school players can be free agents, or more hopefully just opt to play in college.

...  This proposal would make college baseball much more of a development league for MLB than it already is, and would probably lead to contraction of MiLB teams since so many more players would be opting for college.

The baseball draft is certainly ridiculously long. A manifestation of that came this year. Jacob Hoffman of Stanford was drafted by the A's as a perk for doing some work for them - he was a student at Stanford but didn't play for Stanford (and the official press release mentions him, but doesn't count him as a player drafted). You don't see that kind of courtesy draft pick in the NFL.

At any rate, the draft isn't 40 rounds long to fill the MLB rosters, it's to fill out minor league teams. The vast majority of those kids will never play in the majors.

The effect on colleges is interesting.
First of all, getting rid of rounds of the draft, or even getting rid of a good chunk of minor league baseball, won't send more kids to college but will increase the talent level of those playing at college though perhaps decrease the average level of interest in actually attending classes and the like. 

Many have argued that if the NFL and NBA had similar systems, and thus kids not interested in college opted not to go, then many of the problems associated with big time football and basketball would melt away. After all, you don't hear about so many scandals in college baseball. This may be true, but it seems like it would come with the price of college football and basketball having popularity closer to that of college baseball - at least in the long term. That may be a price worth paying, but it's a price that should be kept in mind.

The effect on individual kids seems much more complicated. I don't know what happens to most kids who play in the minors and never get further. One might think that having a college degree would be good for people in such a circumstance, but I am not entirely sure that funneling people into college who have little interest in being there really helps that much.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - Phogge - 06-23-2017

I've been re-watching Burns' baseball series lately. I have become convinced that all athletes play in some kind of servitude. With due respect to the Selective Service System during crises I think drafts are un-American in our capitalist society. Kids are not barred from attending their favorite college if qualified and they shouldn't be forced to play for a crappy organization like the Marlins or the Niners. Maybe confusion would reign at the highest levels but freedom should out.

BTW, a number of ex-teammates who never got beyond AA or AAA are happy that they did get a chance to play for pay.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - fullmetal - 06-23-2017

University educations serve a different purpose than a professional sports league.  The leagues have a vested interest in the drama of enforcing talent access parity across teams--there are always going to be teams that play in better/worse markets with richer/poorer owners.  These natural advantages would result in very noncompetitive play over time, thus leading to the dissolution of unprofitable teams, which would shrink the league and reduce overall revenue, relevance, and entertainment.

So yeah, drafts are good for entertainment, but we don't have them for colleges because that's not what colleges are about.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - GoodGrief - 06-23-2017

(06-22-2017, 08:33 AM)CTcard link Wrote:The baseball draft is certainly ridiculously long. A manifestation of that came this year. Jacob Hoffman of Stanford was drafted by the A's as a perk for doing some work for them - he was a student at Stanford but didn't play for Stanford (and the official press release mentions him, but doesn't count him as a player drafted). You don't see that kind of courtesy draft pick in the NFL.

That reminded me of this story. The Padres have renewed the minor league contract of a wheelchair-bound pitcher for the last 20 years so that he could keep his health insurance. He had had a heart attack while warming up in the bullpen.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/san-diego-padres-matt-lachappa-contract-mlb

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - Phogge - 06-23-2017

(06-23-2017, 09:21 AM)fullmetal link Wrote:University educations serve a different purpose than a professional sports league.  The leagues have a vested interest in the drama of enforcing talent access parity across teams--there are always going to be teams that play in better/worse markets with richer/poorer owners.  These natural advantages would result in very noncompetitive play over time, thus leading to the dissolution of unprofitable teams, which would shrink the league and reduce overall revenue, relevance, and entertainment.

So yeah, drafts are good for entertainment, but we don't have them for colleges because that's not what colleges are about.

I don't particularly care about parity. The Yanks hoarded talent before the draft and baseball survived. there are too many teams already. If MLB went back to 16 teams I'd be for it. No playoffs, the WS would be as important as it was in 1919, 1939 and 1959. And the Seals could be back in San Francisco.

Indentured servitude doesn't cut it.


Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - fullmetal - 06-23-2017

That's a totally fair opinion.  I don't disagree.  But the reason why you have drafts and parity is that it makes for better entertainment, which drives revenue for owners and the league.  I don't see a way to pressure owners + league into dissolving the draft because money tends to talk more loudly than principle.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - Phogge - 06-23-2017

Nothing will change. The owners will continue to print money and the public will continue to consume. Until the revolution.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - Mick - 06-23-2017

(06-23-2017, 08:59 AM)Phogge link Wrote:I've been re-watching Burns' baseball series lately. I have become convinced that all athletes play in some kind of servitude. With due respect to the Selective Service System during crises I think drafts are un-American in our capitalist society. Kids are not barred from attending their favorite college if qualified and they shouldn't be forced to play for a crappy organization like the Marlins or the Niners. Maybe confusion would reign at the highest levels but freedom should out.

BTW, a number of ex-teammates who never got beyond AA or AAA are happy that they did get a chance to play for pay.


You're talking about people who (generally) make a lot of money to play a child's game and get to stay in shape and travel while they do so.  Absent a few notable exceptions, these aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, and they play a kid's game so they don't have to sit behind  a desk.  So the people who own their clubs or run their sports have all the power.

And the few who do realize they're screwed as players?  Some of them become owners, like Charles Comiskey.  Comiskey reminded me of the old Russian joke:  What's the difference between American slaves and Russian slaves?  American slaves want freedom and Russian slaves want to be slaveowners.  That was Comiskey, a slaveowner.  Horrible man, underpaid all of his players.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - JJJ - 06-24-2017

Speaking of CWS, anyone watch T1 of OSU vs LSU just now? Win or go home game for both.
Umpire calling strikes on pitches 4 inches off the plate, had 2 of 3 Beavs strike out looking. Brutal. Better get used to this guy's zone or it's going to be a long flight home.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - fullmetal - 06-24-2017

OSU goes home, LSU advances.  Tough for the Beavs.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - DC 86 - 06-24-2017

All SEC final: LSU vs Florida.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - OutsiderFan - 06-25-2017

(06-24-2017, 03:52 PM)JJJ link Wrote:Speaking of CWS, anyone watch T1 of OSU vs LSU just now? Win or go home game for both.
Umpire calling strikes on pitches 4 inches off the plate, had 2 of 3 Beavs strike out looking. Brutal. Better get used to this guy's zone or it's going to be a long flight home.

There aren't words to describe what that umpire did to that game and to OSU.  He literally was calling strikes on pitches where the ball travelled right over the right hand batter's box chalk lines.  OSU had a heavily left handed lineup, so that meant they had multiple guys having to deal with the nonsense of called strikes so far outside they couldn't even reach the ball to contact it had they swung at them while standing in the "normal" place in the left hand batter's box.  And it wasn't like the umpire wasn't missing other pitches as well.  One of the worst umpired games I've ever seen.  The OSU starter couldn't control the ball as well on the outside of the plate like the LSU pitcher did, but you're not suppose to get rewarded for that!

The game is suppose to be about rewarding the batter for knowing the strike zone and punishing the pitcher for missing it.  In this case, the opposite was true, and the Beavers get totally screwed by it.  The previous day, the Bears had a double that would have scored two runs taken away because eat umpires called a fair ball foul and they didn't use replay to correct their mistake.  I'd be white hot pissed were I a Beaver baseball player, coach, or fan.  Hopefully that screw job didn't cost the Pac-12 money, but it probably did.



Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - Papa John - 06-26-2017

My son is playing in his Little League's 10U all stars tournament. What you guys are describing sounds like the Little League strike zone, which is often (unofficially) expanded to a ball's diameter on either side of the plate.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - OutsiderFan - 06-26-2017

Do they call them this far off the plate in Little League?

https://twitter.com/cjzero/status/878731203016372225

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - Nan3cy - 06-26-2017

Wow, that's nuts.


Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - Mick - 06-26-2017

(06-26-2017, 11:36 AM)OutsiderFan link Wrote:Do they call them this far off the plate in Little League?

https://twitter.com/cjzero/status/878731203016372225

Two thoughts:

1)  Take a look where the umpire and catcher are set up.  The umpire's sight line is set up on the far inside of the plate.  But he isn't doing it because that's where the catcher sets up (which is common).  The catcher is set up right behind the plate, both glove and body, the ball is thrown far to the outside (2.5 balls or so), and the catcher tries to sell it as he's taught.  The ball is so far outside that the ump doesn't have a real chance to gauge it because he's so far out of position.  To give the umpire the benefit of the doubt, he probably has somewhat severe depth perception issues -- in which case, he's in the wrong line of work.  I can't imagine anyone wanting to hire that guy at this point.

2)  Like Papa John, my son played in the 10U tournament.  And speaking of wild pitchers, I remember meeting with the umpire and the other coach prior to an interlock game, in which the Willow Glen and American league teams played each other because we didn't have quite enough teams to fill out a full schedule on our own.  The American umpire and coach obviously know each other.  The American umpire says "I want you both to know, I call a wide strike zone, I don't like kids walking, I want them swinging the bat."  The rules are already modified as Papa John pointed out, the strike zone was one ball wider, higher and deeper than the typical strike zone.

I saw right away why they were doing this.  The American pitcher threw flame...and he had no idea where the ball was going.  First three pitches were eye level, ankle level and six inches outside.  Strikes one, two and three.  I called time after the first inning and mentioned to the American manager to join me.  they did, and they were both grinning like crazy.  I said, "Look fellas, you guys aren't doing this kid any favors.  He now thinks he can bounce the ball on the plate or throw it over the other batter's box and that's a strike.  It's your field and your rules, but this is going to come back and haunt him."  Ump says, "I call them like I see them.  Play ball."

The odd thing was that the umpire saw the strike zone much narrower for our pitchers.  Halfway through the season, the five Willow Glen coaches checked their stats...in Willow Glen park, the visitors gave up an average of 6.5 walks and the Willow Glen pitchers gave up 7 walks per game.  At the American park, the American pitchers gave up three walks per game, the Willow Glen pitchers gave up an average of fourteen walks per game.

At the end of the season, there was a district tournament of all the 10U south bay leagues.  Sure enough, first game, the pitcher for the American team gives up 14 walks in the first three innings.  The manager was furious and pulled his team off the field.  I watched the game, calls were legit.  Chalk it up to another little league parent/umpire story, one of millions.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - JJJ - 06-26-2017

Sad to say that way back when my son played (up until maybe 13yrs old), there were some notoriously bad umps. One guy in particular (incidentally, he had all the umpire gear including chest and wrist protectors and various sweatbands etc) would call pitches in the dirt or way above eye level or far outside strikes. Not good for anyone involved. I wonder if he's still messing things up for our future ballplayers. But this guy at the CWS should never be invited back.

Re: Kyle Peterson CWS - fullmetal - 06-26-2017

He should be disinvited from the umpiring corps.  A performance like that on a stage like the CWS is pretty obscene.